What's ridiculous is that this will forever change how people view the Spurs (whether they win or not) and the Spurs did nothing. It was the league that handed out the suspensions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Bringdown
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What's ridiculous is that this will forever change how people view the Spurs (whether they win or not) and the Spurs did nothing. It was the league that handed out the suspensions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Bringdown
Yes, let's shed a tear for the poor Spurs, and their budding dynasty. You and I would both jump at the chance to be hated for always winning the title.Quote:
Originally Posted by mabber
amare and diaw are getting the appropriate punishment for what they did. there is no grey area. you step out of the immediate bench area during an altercation, you get suspended the next game. it's very clear. it's not up for debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Findog
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Originally Posted by leemajors
What IS up for debate is how is the Jones/Elson thing not an altercation but Horry/Nash is? In either incident, were any punches thrown? No. You can't claim that Stu Jackson and David Stern together didn't exercise discretion and subjective judgment -- they clearly did.
R A J A B E L L. If anybody is to blame for suckering Amare and Diaw into the rule violation, it is Raja Bell. Nash was on the floor, seemingly unable to move. That idiot Bell rushed at Horry and created an altercation. Suns fans should be venting their anger at Bell's stupidity for turning a hard foul into an altercation.
bell escalated the horry foul into an altercation, and horry cemented it as one with the elbow. there was nothing remotely like that in the jones/elson situation. if jackson and stern had decided otherwise, we would have to deal with that too. the rule lays everything out clearly, and the jones/elson situation was not found to be an altercation. simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Findog
SUBJECTIVE. No punches thrown = no altercation. That's my subjective judgment. If the NBA was interested in settling this thing on the court and not in their offices, then they'd simply label the Horry/Nash incident as a non-altercation. Outside of San Antonio, who would be screaming bloody murder? The fans that get to see this series decided at full-strength? I think not. There was plenty of wiggle room for Jackson and Stern, they just chose not to exercise it.Quote:
Originally Posted by leemajors
Findog, i don't think your idea about holding the suspensions untill next season is necissarily a bad one, i myself would have rather this all not have happened.
But the fact is, as said 123123-=09-09-80129834029384^2 times before, this is a very cut and dry rule, it was broken...cause and effect. It sucks, i agree, but everyone plays by this rule at all times, it shouldn't be adjusted just because its now affecting something you (and im using you as a figurative here) have an interest in.
If people had such a disdain for this rule, and think its dumb, why did you not try and get it changed 4 years ago, 8 years ago...hell why not oppose it when it was released?
it is a fanboi response to a harsh judgement on your teams players. Id be really pissed off too if duncan and ginobli were out, but inside me somewhere id know what was right, and that they are getting what is desrved based on the ruleset.
NOT subjective. Not only WERE there punches thrown, observe the emotions involved in each situation and try to say the latter wasn't an altercation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Findog
You seem intelligent; please stop reaching.
The rule is cut and dried. Is the definition of an "altercation" so cut and dried? For some people that means punches thrown. For others it means harsh words exchanged and pushing and shoving.Quote:
But the fact is, as said times before, this is a very cut and dry rule, it was broken...cause and effect. It sucks, i agree, but everyone plays by this rule at all times, it shouldn't be adjusted just because its now affecting something you (and im using you as a figurative here) have an interest in.
Well, now that it's potentially affecting the outcome of the "real" NBA Finals, yeah, let's change it now. Why become such sticklers for rules now? Derek Fisher wasn't abiding by the dress code when he arrived late at the Arena for Game 2. A rule's a rule, but this one wasnt enforced. No action was taken against Jason Richardson or Baron Davis for their flagrants at the end of Game Four.Quote:
If people had such a disdain for this rule, and think its dumb, why did you not try and get it changed 4 years ago, 8 years ago...hell why not oppose it when it was released?
Uh, no, my team is the Mavwrecks, not the Suns. Incidentally, I'm rooting for the Spurs in this series and wish to see them move on, but not like this.Quote:
it is a fanboi response to a harsh judgement on your teams players.
Maybe you're the exception, but if the shoe was on the other foot, I have no doubt how the majority of Spurs fans would react if this had happened to their team.Quote:
Id be really pissed off too if duncan and ginobli were out, but inside me somewhere id know what was right, and that they are getting what is desrved based on the rulese
Does anyone have the link to the youtube video? Some people are claiming Bell shoved Horry, others say it was a closed fist and a punch. Even if the latter is true, Amare and Diaw rushed to check on Nash. When Nash gets up and charges Horry, they slip back to the bench and are restrained by the Suns coaching staff.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFlagg
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Uh, no, my team is the Mavwrecks, not the Suns. Incidentally, I'm rooting for the Spurs in this series and wish to see them move on, but not like this.
once again, my you was meant figuratively.
I still stand by the point that, if this rule had the potential to cause such a fuss, why only fuss when it affects your best players, would it cause this fuss if your worst two players were suspended? What if it was the second to the last game of the season for the bobcats, no playoffs in sight...this happened and Okafor, wallace, morrison all got the axe for the last game of the season...not really any impact other than they'd probably have a worse record than they already have....would you care? or would you say, "well that sucks, but they knew the rules"
to argue it may have not been an altercation. did you see the picture? the one that was on ESPN all afternoon yesterday and this morning.
There are jerseys being pulled, players being bear hugged to be restrained, fire in peoples eyes, stiff arms applied, etc...if that is not an altercation im not really sure what one is then. I will give you this, had Raja Bell not ran after horry being the hothead enforcer, i give it a 95% chance none of this would have happened. Horry would have gotten his Flagrant foul, possible suspended, suns would have won and would have been gearing up to complete what they want so badly.
Instead, Amare decided he wanted to gift wrap the series for the spurs by not using what little brains he has in his head. San Antonio cannot do anything about this.
who is really to blame here?
I addressed this in another thread, but I'll do it here again. The one objection to rolling the suspensions over to the season opener in November is that it cheapens the punishment and removes the incentive to abide by the rule. Here is where I think they need some flexibility in meting out punishment. Yes, this rule has helped the refs keep order and we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, but here is my solution. If a player breaks the rule in a playoff game, his team has a choice: He can serve the one game suspension and $35K fine immediately, or he can roll it over to the next season. If he and the team choose to roll it over, the penalty becomes 10 games and corresponding loss of salary for those 10. So if it had been Pat Burke or Sean Marks making their way to the court, D'Antoni could sit them down immediately.Quote:
I still stand by the point that, if this rule had the potential to cause such a fuss, why only fuss when it affects your best players, would it cause this fuss if your worst two players were suspended? What if it was the second to the last game of the season for the bobcats, no playoffs in sight...this happened and Okafor, wallace, morrison all got the axe for the last game of the season...not really any impact other than they'd probably have a worse record than they already have....would you care? or would you say, "well that sucks, but they knew the rules"
This is the entertainment business. It's not in the League's interest for Amare and Diaw to sit this one out and for this to probably swing the series to San Antonio. I think that's reasonable: it preserves the consequences of breaking rules while still allowing for playoff games to be decided on the court.
people could scream bloody murder all they want if it was ruled not an altercation, but if that was the decision it was the decision and all the screaming in the world wouldn't do anything about it. the NBA is not a democracy. they had to enforce the rule the way it was written, and they did. if only the refs would be this consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Findog
Yeah, the players' union will be all for that one.Quote:
If he and the team choose to roll it over, the penalty becomes 10 games and corresponding loss of salary for those 10.
You think Amare and Diaw wouldn't take that deal right now if they had the option? 10 games loss of salary to Amare means one less ivory backscratcher.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
I don't think you understand how rules are made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Findog
And of course they would take the deal.
And rush the courts all the time without restraint.
There is no incentive right now for teams to follow the rules -- if you step out on the court after watching your floor leader hit the deck, as a natural impulse in the heat of a playoff game, you might as well get your licks in instead of heading back to the bench. And you might as well follow the Spurs' lead and go all Bob Probert on teams as a tactic. The way this sequence played out does nothing to prevent what the NBA is trying to avoid.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Sure there is. Eight Suns that were on and behind the bench followed the rule in game four, so they get to play game five. Pretty strong incentive.Quote:
There is no incentive right now for teams to follow the rules
then you don't get suspended. Keep running on the court from the vicinity of the bench, and you get suspended.Quote:
if you step out on the court after watching your floor leader hit the deck, as a natural impulse in the heat of a playoff game
Where is the incentive to not pull a stunt like Horry did? He just swung the series in his team's favor. And I think he's too cool-headed to have lost impulse control.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Two game suspension. Do you think before you post?Quote:
Originally Posted by Findog
I really don't see how you can't call that scrum with coaches and refs pulling players apart from each other anything but an "altercation".Quote:
Originally Posted by Findog
Just like I don't see any way you can call the Elson/Jones thing an "altercation" when the only physicality was Elson trying to dislodge himself from sitting on Jones shoulders. They both basically just started going down the court to play. Of course, on that play Duncan and Bowen probably should have been given Techs and Jones a foul (by rule that was a foul on him), but it's certainly not an altercation.
Dantoni has earned about 4 techs on this series for his constant screaming of "bullshit!" for 10 minutes following a play he doesn't agree with, so hey, I'll call the missing techs makeup non-calls.
The league makes billions of dollars with its image. Fights cost them huge sums of money. The rule is there for that reason. By the way, the ratings won't be down for tonight's game, so suspending those idiots for breaking the simplest rule in the book is going to be a positive for the league.Quote:
Originally Posted by Findog
By the way, if we preserve the integrity of breaking a rule by pushing the consequences back to next season, Horry gets off with no punishment because he's retiring.
By the way, if Horry gets suspended for hitting Bell above the shoulders, it's an altercation.
Parttime bench player for a first-team all NBA and a versatile sixth man. I'd say Horry had all the incentive in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper