Game 6 Strategy

Now that the Suns have their two players back and are at full strength again, do you think there will be any changes in strategy with what D'Antoni will do against the Spurs? I think two main things he may do is mix in more double teams on Timmy or even Manu if Manu goes off, and he may add the ultra small lineup that gave the Spurs trouble in game 5 to the rotation. The Spurs through most of game 5 couldn't hit the widest of open shots off the doubles and D'Antoni may try it again in spot minutes to see what effectiveness it may have.

For the Spurs, I think it'll be the same strategy with Oberto starting and Manu coming off the bench. I'll be interested to see what changes to the rotation Pop goes with now that the Suns are at full strength but the Spurs are down arguably their best front court player outside of Duncan. Does anyone think the additions of Stoudemire and Diaw will actually help the Spurs match up since Oberto won't be having to guard Marion? What are your overall thoughts on how game 6 will unfold?

Jacque Vaughn in street clothes.

Win

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Jacque Vaughn in street clothes.

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:lol

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Originally Posted by Kevin Blackistone

Now that the Suns have their two players back and are at full strength again, do you think there will be any changes in strategy with what D'Antoni will do against the Spurs? I think two main things he may do is mix in more double teams on Timmy or even Manu if Manu goes off, and he may add the ultra small lineup that gave the Spurs trouble in game 5 to the rotation. The Spurs through most of game 5 couldn't hit the widest of open shots off the doubles and D'Antoni may try it again in spot minutes to see what effectiveness it may have.

For the Spurs, I think it'll be the same strategy with Oberto starting and Manu coming off the bench. I'll be interested to see what changes to the rotation Pop goes with now that the Suns are at full strength but the Spurs are down arguably their best front court player outside of Duncan. Does anyone think the additions of Stoudemire and Diaw will actually help the Spurs match up since Oberto won't be having to guard Marion? What are your overall thoughts on how game 6 will unfold?

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Yeah, if he's got any sense he'll double team Tim, but there's no answer to Manu and Tony. He can go small, but in this contest, it's not going to work. (There was a lot else going on last night, dynamics-wise.)

Marion was the thorn in our ass last night. Stoudemire's and Diaw's presence can only help us. Double teaming Tim will leave a deep bench full of shooters open, including Finley and Bowen.

I hope Pop starts Oberto. Manu's hot. Timmy's hot. Spurs will close it out.

I think TP will have to have a good game, not necessarily scoring wise but he'll have to be smart with the ball and hit the occasional jumper. With Vaughn looking like he's on the Suns payroll TP may have to log big minutes to win this one. Hopefully the 4th quarter shooting of Manu, Finley, and Bowen will be there in this game to close out the Suns.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Jacque Vaughn in street clothes.

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make him waterboy

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Originally Posted by ducks

make him waterboy

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:lol

Is English your second language? Or is this your way of saving time with your posts due to multi-tasking?

actually I just watched waterboy

funny movie

Strange as it seems, I think the Suns defense has been good enough all series, and I don't see any need to change that up much in Game 6. I think D'Antoni will stick with single-team defense on TD until late in the game, because it prevents everybody else from getting into a shooting rhythm. Then you double-team in the fourth quarter, and force a cold shooter to sink big shots in crunch time. Sometimes they hit (Game 5), but sometimes they don't (Game 4), and everybody's scratching their heads wondering why suddenly nobody can hit a shot.

The problem has been on the offensive side -- the Suns live off of quick ball movement, drive and kick, and hitting open threes. But none of that works if everybody stays home on three-point shooters, and the pick and roll has been a little shaky. I don't completely trust D'Antoni's coaching moves, but I trust Nash's ability to solve a defense. He's seen it five times now, and I think he'll crack it.

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Originally Posted by ManuTim_best of Fwiendz

:lol

Is English your second language? Or is this your way of saving time with your posts due to multi-tasking?

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watching movie chilling with a laptop
about to go to bed
no mult-tasking posting now just most of the time (when working)

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Originally Posted by ducks

watching movie chilling with a laptop
about to go to bed
no mult-tasking posting now just most of the time (when working)

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oh ok, heh.

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Originally Posted by Stargazer

Strange as it seems, I think the Suns defense has been good enough all series, and I don't see any need to change that up much in Game 6. I think D'Antoni will stick with single-team defense on TD until late in the game, because it prevents everybody else from getting into a shooting rhythm. Then you double-team in the fourth quarter, and force a cold shooter to sink big shots in crunch time. Sometimes they hit (Game 5), but sometimes they don't (Game 4), and everybody's scratching their heads wondering why suddenly nobody can hit a shot.

The problem has been on the offensive side -- the Suns live off of quick ball movement, drive and kick, and hitting open threes. But none of that works if everybody stays home on three-point shooters, and the pick and roll has been a little shaky. I don't completely trust D'Antoni's coaching moves, but I trust Nash's ability to solve a defense. He's seen it five times now, and I think he'll crack it.

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I DO NOT GET WHY SUNS DO NOT PRACTICE IN TRAINING CAMP PLAYS THAT WILL WORK WHEN QUICK BALL MOVEMENT DOES NOT WORK?

THEY KNOW THEY HAVE TO GET BY THE SPURS
ARE THEY STUPID?

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Originally Posted by ducks

I DO NOT GET WHY SUNS DO NOT PRACTICE IN TRAINING CAMP PLAYS THAT WILL WORK WHEN QUICK BALL MOVEMENT DOES NOT WORK?

THEY KNOW THEY HAVE TO GET BY THE SPURS
ARE THEY STUPID?

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They don't have a dominate post player that routinely draws double teams and is skilled enough to find the open player. TD and Shaq have been about the only players who can command that kind of respect from the defense over the last several years and can pass out of it with precision. Amare is a cutter and finisher, not a post up player.

Pass to Duncan.
Play slowly.
Defense like in last game.
Win.

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Originally Posted by BeerIsGood!

They don't have a dominate post player that routinely draws double teams and is skilled enough to find the open player. TD and Shaq have been about the only players who can command that kind of respect from the defense over the last several years and can pass out of it with precision. Amare is a cutter and finisher, not a post up player.

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TRADE AMARE + BANKS FOR KG
AND WOLVES DRAFT PICK
SUNS WOULD HAVE 4 DRAFT PICKS
THEN THEY COULD TRADE THEIR PICKS FOR A GOOD PLAYER
OR KEEP THE PICKS AND GET A 10 MAN ROTATION :rolleyes :rolleyes

The Suns are already in a cap hell, adding KG isn't a viable option unless they don't want Nash and many other players anymore.

playing smart basketball for 48 minutes will guarantee victory.

-Give it to Duncan. Drive in and take it strong to the hoop or find the open guy.

-If they double Duncan, hit open jumpers or pass to the cutters for a layin.

-Play some Dirtay D.

Why don't the Suns practice plays that will work when ball movement does not?

I don't get that either -- it's a major problem, and it's also the real reason why the Suns don't use their bench. Unlike set plays that everybody can learn, you can't just plug somebody in to an improvisational offense for five minutes a game and expect anything. So far as I can tell, the only "plays" the Suns really have are just patterns that grow organically over the course of the season because they work. Like the back door alley oop--I suppose you could call it a "play," but the whole point of it is that it only works when nobody suspects that you're going to run it, which means that it has to happen spontaneously. Or the pick and roll -- I suppose it's a "play," but only if you call a play "Amare sets a pick at the top of the key, then Nash starts dribbling all over the court until he spots a mismatch or an opening and makes a play."

On the other hand, that's why I love the Suns. They want to win, but for better or worse, they want to prove that they can do it their way. It may be a totally quixotic quest, but I can relate to it in my own life. I think a lot of people can relate to it, actually, and I think that's one reason why they are a popular team.

"Strange as it seems, I think the Suns defense has been good enough all series"

The Suns' D has improved, no doubt about it.


"The problem has been on the offensive side -- the Suns live off of quick ball movement"

But as the Spurs are capable of consistently calling the pace, that's been only partially effective.


"I trust Nash's ability to solve a defense. He's seen it five times now, and I think he'll crack it."

And as soon as he cracks it, it'll change. Our bench makes for some ingenious rotation -- assuming the right combo is engaged.

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Originally Posted by Stargazer

Why don't the Suns practice plays that will work when ball movement does not?

I don't get that either -- it's a major problem, and it's also the real reason why the Suns don't use their bench. Unlike set plays that everybody can learn, you can't just plug somebody in to an improvisational offense for five minutes a game and expect anything. So far as I can tell, the only "plays" the Suns really have are just patterns that grow organically over the course of the season because they work. Like the back door alley oop--I suppose you could call it a "play," but the whole point of it is that it only works when nobody suspects that you're going to run it, which means that it has to happen spontaneously. Or the pick and roll -- I suppose it's a "play," but only if you call a play "Amare sets a pick at the top of the key, then Nash starts dribbling all over the court until he spots a mismatch or an opening and makes a play."

On the other hand, that's why I love the Suns. They want to win, but for better or worse, they want to prove that they can do it their way. It may be a totally quixotic quest, but I can relate to it in my own life. I think a lot of people can relate to it, actually, and I think that's one reason why they are a popular team.

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They run more plays than you think. Although they aren't the greatest in a set offense, their offense revolves around spreading the floor with shooters and running pick and rolls from a few different spots and letting Nash decide what the defense is giving him and where to go with the ball. The back side alley oops are sometimes called as a set out of a timeout, but mostly used when a team is leaning heavy on ball denial or is simply losing sight of their man.

With that said, their best offense is still getting a turnover, long rebound, or quick inbound pass that leads to a quick outlet and the ball in either Nash or Barbosa's hands.

I believe and adjustment Pop is forced to make will be bonner gettin some minutes. I have faith in bonner especially @ him that he will get the job done

If the Spurs do a good job and stay at home on the shooters in the spread offense the Phoenix half court offense will either have to come from Nash creating shots for himself or from cutters off the ball or in the pick and roll. The flipside is that the Spurs have seen this offense for 5 straight games too, and are getting better at either TP or Bowen (whoever is guarding Nash) taking the passing lanes away while TD or the Big in the game shuts off Nash's path for a layup. That leaves the screener open and is why Thomas routinely gets open looks. In game 5 the Spurs were quick to recover on defensive rotation and made Thomas put the ball on the court many times, and that isn't his strong suit.

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Originally Posted by jaespur21

I believe and adjustment Pop is forced to make will be bonner gettin some minutes. I have faith in bonner especially @ him that he will get the job done

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Doubtful unless he has to due to foul trouble. Bonner's defense isn't playoff ready yet and he looked like a deer in the headlights in game 5.

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Originally Posted by BeerIsGood!

They run more plays than you think. Although they aren't the greatest in a set offense, their offense revolves around spreading the floor with shooters and running pick and rolls from a few different spots and letting Nash decide what the defense is giving him and where to go with the ball. The back side alley oops are sometimes called as a set out of a timeout, but mostly used when a team is leaning heavy on ball denial or is simply losing sight of their man.

With that said, their best offense is still getting a turnover, long rebound, or quick inbound pass that leads to a quick outlet and the ball in either Nash or Barbosa's hands.

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I don't disagree -- just depends on what you mean by "play." To me, Nash uses the pick and roll as a way to simulate the confusion and spontaneity of a fast break, and then, as you say, looks for what the defense is giving. Force the defenders to switch, set multiple people in motion, and then Nash starts driving and forcing defenders to commit, just like a fast break. Only against a good defense, it's really not quite a substitute for a true fast break, since there's only so much confusion you can create from any set offense.

I often wonder whether part of Phoenix's historical problems on defense might not stem from the fact that their offense is so atypical. That is, I wonder whether they lack some of the basic insight that most teams have into each other's offense simply because they don't run the same sort of offense.

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Originally Posted by Stargazer

I don't disagree -- just depends on what you mean by "play." To me, Nash uses the pick and roll as a way to simulate the confusion and spontaneity of a fast break, and then, as you say, looks for what the defense is giving. Force the defenders to switch, set multiple people in motion, and then Nash starts driving and forcing defenders to commit, just like a fast break. Only against a good defense, it's really not quite a substitute for a true fast break, since there's only so much confusion you can create from any set offense.

I often wonder whether part of Phoenix's historical problems on defense might not stem from the fact that their offense is so atypical. That is, I wonder whether they lack some of the basic insight that most teams have into each other's offense simply because they don't run the same sort of offense.

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I don't think they are lacking any insight, I just think their focus and more importantly personnel have been suited much more to running the offense and not as much to matching up on defense. Basketball is the ultimate game of matchups (other than an individual sport like boxing) because of the relatively few amount of players on the court at one time. In the past the Suns have had an abundance of players who can run the court and play a streetball like game, but not many that were tough, defensive minded individuals. To make matters worse, the coaching focus was squarely on offense and scoring more points than the opponent. I'll give D'Antoni credit for one thing here - he retooled the personnel a bit and have added a much better team defensive philosophy. This Suns team has much better defensive rotations than what I remember in the past, and that goes a long way to cutting off the lane and not giving up layups and 35 points a game to guys like TP and Manu. Unfortunately for the Suns, adding the defensive games of Bell and especially Kurt Thomas to the series adds overall defense but does cut down on the offensive options in the half court. Bell is a good spot shooter, but lacks a game off the bounce while all Thomas can really do is hit an open 10 - 18 ft. shot with some consistency.

I just re-watched one of games in the Suns vs. 2006 WCF. The Suns would run out five legit three-point threats, spread the floor with Barbosa, Bell and Nash with Marion and Diaw or Thomas operating in the blocks. That offense was predicated in screen n rolls and drive and kicks. Funnily enough, that team seemed to have a higher overall basketball IQ than the one operating now (w/Amare) and better able to execute their style of half-court ball. Just food for thought.

But anyway, focusing on the game tomorrow. D'Antoni is probably going to gear his early game-plan towards taking advantage of Amare and his likely energy infusion. Let him. Get him caught in pick and rolls, make him jump out to defend perimeter players, let him operate on offense but bring help after his initial moves. He'll be so hyped up it'll be easy to get him out of position and committing fouls.

Of any game (if they have the legs for it) the Spurs should try and selectively push the ball out of their half-court defense. As many minutes as the Spurs played, the Suns played more, that might be an advantage. If they play a similar style to Game 5, by the fourth the Suns should be pretty worn out and the Spurs should be able to push in the fourth for the win.

Diaw has notreally made an impact this series, and Amare doesn't have a high enough basketball IQ to effectively harness what ever energy he has in a conducive manner. He'll be trying to prove a point.

I see the Suns coming out hard, but the Spurs staying with their gameplan and grinding them down going into the fourth quarter. Also, of note, is that the Spurs small-ball line-up was pretty effective in Game 5 (excluding Brent Barry).

I don't think we'll brick shots like that at home.

Try to replay that great 4th quarter defense from game five. The screen and roll defense was particularly good.

(1) Play like Game 4, only for the full 48 minutes.

(2) Keep Bennett Salvatore off the court.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Jacque Vaughn in street clothes.

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yep!!!

This is gonna have to be one of those games where all our starters put in about 43 minutes...we have to finish this off and the less elson and vaughn are on the court the better a chance we have.

Of course if we do that and still lose then we are screwed for game 7.

I think Fhortnix learnt that double teaming Tim is a good alternative. Spurs looked quite lost when they did it during game 5.

I think Fhortnix is going to use this defensive alternative massively during game 6, leaving the poorest 3pt shooter Spur on court open.

I would FORCE Spurs to make 3pt shots all night long. I would force SA to beat me with jumpshots.

Double teaming is also good to avoid Tim drawing fouls on one particular player. He can't start his post up dribble or moves while being double teamed.
He will be force to pass to an open guy in the nearby to start things over.

This would be my strategy if I was D'Antoni. Of course, I am not and I will be probably mistaken with my strategy. lol.

M

Three pointers have been our savers in the games we won against phoenix. I'd rely more on plays like Oberto covering Manu for a 3 shot. Suns would be on Manu and Tim harder than before, so I expect a great game from Tony too.

Don't fall behind big early (see Dallas Game 7 last year and almost every game of this series).

Survive the first 20 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Russ

Don't fall behind big early (see Dallas Game 7 last year and almost every game of this series).

Survive the first 20 minutes.

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I was gonna say that.

If they stay close the Spurs will wear them down with plenty of TD. If Timmy get going early we will get plenty of open looks and hopefully we won't wait until 5 minutes left in the game to get hot from the arc.

I agree that we are very vulnerable to getting way behind early and making the rest of the game far tougher than it has to be. How about this: start right off with a zone. Just to give them something new to look at and think about. Then take it off when they get used to it, then switch to it again from time to time. One nice thing about a zone: it would keep Nash from penetrating so easily and looking for mismatches. Of course it would leave some 3-pt shooters open, so it needs to be used judiciously, but it might just throw them off stride enough that we have a 21-20 first quarter, instead of a 28-18 one.

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Originally Posted by ManuTastic

I agree that we are very vulnerable to getting way behind early and making the rest of the game far tougher than it has to be. How about this: start right off with a zone. Just to give them something new to look at and think about. Then take it off when they get used to it, then switch to it again from time to time. One nice thing about a zone: it would keep Nash from penetrating so easily and looking for mismatches. Of course it would leave some 3-pt shooters open, so it needs to be used judiciously, but it might just throw them off stride enough that we have a 21-20 first quarter, instead of a 28-18 one.

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My biggest fear in a zone in the first quarter would be if someone like Barbosa got on track. Our defensive rotations on their three-point shooters has been excellent so far. Our defense has actually been damn good; keyed by Parker (as unlikely as that sounds).

In this case, what it comes down to is our offensive execution. If we can get some quick points on the board, and put pressure on their defense early and often, they will crack. While the Suns defense has been much more effective than I believed coming, the Spurs have shown signs of breaking it down.

The challenge for the Spurs is those guys being back and there being no Horry to come in.

So you have to choose-- would you rather have stretches of small ball or stretches of Elson on the floor. It was good to go small last game but not so good against the Suns full line-up.