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Which is why this thread is crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManuTim_best of Fwiendz
TD has absolutely nothing to do with Mike Brown's comments on his own players' incredible performance tonight.
I think I'll change my line of "Spurs fans are spoiled" to "Spurs fans are sensitive" :)
Of the last 29 points, LeBron made some incredible shots to earn about 10 of them. The other 19 came on right side drives by a right handed player, playing one-on-one, with the help defense always arriving late. Sorry, but that's more bad coaching and bad execution by Detroit than anything else.
Detroit should have either forced him to pass or put him on the line for most of those points. Giving up repeated dunks and lay-ups is pretty inexcusable in the playoffs, whether it's against LeBron, Kobe, Jordan, whoever.
The pistons have got lazy and arrogant...that is the problem...you can stick a fork in them if they dont get on the ball.Quote:
Originally Posted by E20
That's what I'm talking about. The way the Pistons played in '04 and '05 - those mistakes never happen and Lebron doesn't get 3 or 4 uncontested dunks in the 4th and overtime. I don't know what happened to the Pistons, but they have played horribly this series, especially from a mental and hustle stand point. The Cavs just want this series more right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by E20
Of course it was but the Pistons never committed themselves to taking the ball out of his hands down the stretch not once.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Though you do shed some perspective on WHY James scored the way he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
You're making claims as if his performance is already being overrated. Scoring 29 points for the whole team is impressive in itself, no matter how you cut it. Plus, Lebron did some good D.
Also, Lebron did what he was supposed to do given the opportunity, give any other player the opportunity he had, as you said, with the scenario mentioned of playing a inferior coached Team defense, AND pressure scenario of a close game 5 in a conference final, and despite all the disparity, I DOUBT any player
would have done what Lebron did, given the chance. He delivered, and I think you're trying to downplay that too much. Especially the part about him playing on one side. He played good D along with his team. What more could you ask for. Lebron was the best performer on the court, and everyone else on the both squads were levels upon levels below him. You can't blame him for that.
You're twisting the offensive, defensive of mistakes to justify WHY Lebron performed the way he did, too much to your liking. A great offensive game is AN understatement. Lots of players have great offensive games in the post-season. Tim's had them a bunch of times. Wade, Kobe, etc. Even Manu's had some. By the end of the second overtime it was already on another level of just a "great offensive game". It was unique!
Gino is capable of the exact same kind of game with the way the Pistons played D. Maybe even have more points because of a better ft %.
Taking nothing away from bron. Mike Brown has every right to make that comment. I can see both sides of the story. In the end though who cares which performance Brown likes more?
No doubt Lebron did exactly what he should have done. The guy couldn't have played a greater game and took advantage of every mistake, every slow or non-existent rotation, and nearly every opportunity he had. That's what you're supposed to do when a team is making mistake after mistake, and Lebron did it as well as anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManuTim_best of Fwiendz
I mean, this ESPN hype era where anything that just happened is the greatest/worst thing of all time. I'm aware the game was on TNT.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
You said it was more impressive than anything you've seen anyone in a Spurs uniform do.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Here you're just being an ass and ignoring my main point which was that the Cavs defense was excellent and got a lot of stops.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
He blew by Prince those two straight times late in the 4th quarter where he got dunks.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
The pass to Gooden was good, but the vast majority of his passes were off the mark and extremely late on the shot clock. When he was being trapped he should have gotten rid of the ball immediately instead of seeing the double in front of him and waiting, waiting, waiting, and then passing with less than 5 seconds left.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
My chode would explode if Detroit played this kind of defense on Manu where he's never double teamed and nobody is ever in the lane. Seriously I think Kobe or Wade would've gone off for 70 the way the Pistons were playing. Larry Brown would have puked at the TV if he watched this defense. They've suffered greatly with Flip and the fact that they've advanced this far underscores how terrible the Eastern Conference is.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManuTim_best of Fwiendz
If I implied that LeBron wasn't playing good defense, I apologize. That wasn't my intention at all. He played well on defense just like the rest of his teammates did. What I was trying to say is that just because his teammates didn't score the last 12 minutes, they shouldn't be completely mocked or disparaged. They did contribute by playing solid defense.
Secondly, I agree completely with LeBron's decision to attack the rim when he only had one guy guarding him. Of course that was the right move. I have no problem with that. My only issue with his offensive game was that I think on the rare occasion he was trapped/doubled he was holding on to the ball too long even when it was obvious he wasn't going to be the one taking the shot. He wasn't getting rid of it until there were very few seconds left in the shot clock. It's like he doesn't want to pass unless he gets the assist opportunity. A lot of times the best pass isn't the assist pass but the one that leads to the assist pass, and he wasn't giving the offense the time or opportunity to make that second pass.
5 lay-ups or dunks, 5 long Js(2 3s) and 5 FTs. The kid was scoring from everywhere on the court.
The Pistons should've doubled him more, but he was lights out. Eerily reminiscent of some of feats in the 80s or MJ in the 90s.
Don't hate, appreciate. Sheed still got fouled :spin
Yeah it was a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
Point to a 1 on 5 performance as impressive as what LeBron just did in a Spurs uniform on this stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
Thanks.
Yeah the Cavs played some nice defense. However, James had a part in the defense as well. He forced Prince into a big turnover, stole a pass by Prince and got some big rebounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
If LeBron were on the Spurs, he'd easily be their second best perimeter defender.
And on most of those other 21 points, he was guarded by others.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
LeBron's best skill is his passing. Outside of Magic, I've never seen a player his size have the natural passing ability that he has.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
And my point remains, if he was as on fire as he was and the Pistons defense was as bad as you claim, why should he pass?
So LeBron deserves none of the credit? His fade away threes over double teams were due to bad defense?Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
LeBron was fantastic. If you don't want to admit that, not much I can do.
Alright, and yeah I think Gooden and Lebron were able to pull off stops and steals thanks to their team bodying-up .Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
I think Lebron's been less selfish in his games, but at times he is a little stat minded, but I still think he's a pretty good team-oriented player. As for holding the ball too long, I think after games 1 and 2, he realized he had to be a little more selfish. What I saw was fear in his teammates eyes. Sasha rushed a pass back out when he was on the 3 point line on one of the plays in the fourth or first overtime. I can't blame Lebron for assuming the role of 4th quarter man for the remaining possessions. At that point, it's nitpicking, but not really.Quote:
Secondly, I agree completely with LeBron's decision to attack the rim when he only had one guy guarding him. Of course that was the right move. I have no problem with that. My only issue with his offensive game was that I think on the rare occasion he was trapped/doubled he was holding on to the ball too long even when it was obvious he wasn't going to be the one taking the shot. He wasn't getting rid of it until there were very few seconds left in the shot clock. It's like he doesn't want to pass unless he gets the assist opportunity. A lot of times the best pass isn't the assist pass but the one that leads to the assist pass, and he wasn't giving the offense the time or opportunity to make that second pass.
But I can agree that Lebron's game is still a bit rough, meaning he'll only get better at decision making and the like even more so. Which is kind of scary if you think about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Point to a CF team we played that played as bad defensively as the Pistons did today, they gave him three dunks, two to end the fouth. Who have the Spurs played on this level that would do that?
The '05 Suns were a horrible defensive team. The '03 Mavs were a horrible defensive team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainwreck2100
The Pistons defense > either of those team's defenses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
And yet how many game deciding dunks did those teams give up, for Christ's sake, the 03 shitty Mavs defense wouldn't let Tim Duncan have the ball without doubling him.
cue:Steve Kerr.
The Spurs, by definition, don't have or need 1 on 5 performances. If they did, I'd be concerned. It's a team game. If their coach is too dumb to like actually have offensive plays, it's not my fault. I will say Tim's Game 6 vs. NJ stands as the greatest overall dominant game I've ever seen in the playoffs. Really it's impossible to compare because I don't think we'll ever have a guy take 33 shots in one game. Although one of these days, when Tony's in "attack mode"... . :rolleyes [/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Yes, LeBron was a part of that defense. I didn't mean to suggest that he wasn't. One team on the floor seemed to understand the concept of team defense, and one didn't. But I strongly disagree with the second best perimeter defender part. A) LeBron isn't the 2nd best perimeter defense on his OWN team (I'd take Hughes and Snow over him) and B) Manu's been pretty damn good defensively the last two series, his guy almost never scores on him and you fail to take notice. He shut down Kirilenko pretty well I'd say, despite the massive height disadvantage, and Bell didn't do anything either. Seriously, I don't know what you want from the guy, you're getting to be like TPark in your demands of him.[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Yes, because Prince had failed, repeatedly. At that point they should have just doubled every play instead of thinking that Rip or Chauncey could do any better.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Funny, I think his best skill is driving to his right, jumping really high and dunking. His passing is usually pretty good, but it was MIA in the 4th and OT. He either passed way too late or off the mark or both. Outside of that one to Gooden, his teammates didn't have many good looks or time to do anything when he got them the ball.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
And I have no issue with him doing what he did when he was single covered. Of course driving was the right move. I just think that more attention should be paid to the fact that Detroit stupidly didn't double him or foul him enough. The number of lay-ups he got was inexcusable.
He was fantastic. He hit some unbelievable shots. But he didn't win the game by himself (even if he ever-so-humbly said he did in the presser) and the Pistons and their coach gave him considerable help.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Sorry, maybe I've just been conditioned to like team basketball too much.
But watching the game with my best friend I simply couldn't understand why Detroit wasn't doubling him every play or why Detroit didn't even have a guy waiting for LeBron under the basket half the time. They played atrocious defense the last 20 minutes and nobody can convince me otherwise.
Secondly, when I see Mr. Superstar say things like, "Detroit was playing great defense, but I was making great moves to score" and "I willed my team to victory" I find it incredibly off-putting. No Spur would ever talk that way, even if they scored a 100 points. And the amount of time Mike Brown spends slurping this guy in the postgame is just nauseating. Are you his coach or his agent? Leave the hyperbole to the media, Mike. LeBron has enough guys telling him how great he is, your job is supposed to be motivating him to be better. This has a "Michael Jordan & The Jordanaries" feel to it and I don't like it. Brown should have spent the presser calling attention to how great the Cavs played as a team on defense to let LeBron do his thing on offense. You know, build up your role players and take your star off his pedastal.
LeBron's first coach refused to kiss his ass and James promptly got him shitcanned. I find all of this disturbing. But whatever, it sells shoes and soft drinks.
Then you are agreeing with what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
"Duncan has had better overall games but as far as an individual performance given the circumstances of none of his teammates able to do anything and the stage of a conference Finals, LeBron's performance was better than any performance I've seen in a Spurs uniform." -- timvp
Don't try to take my point out of context and then argue against it using my initial logic :lol
So you think guys like Kirilenko and Bell would score against LeBron? :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
The Rockets almost made Kirilenko quit basketball and Bell's stats were a lot better than they were against the Lakers.
Against the Spurs, Bell shot 50% from the field and 50% from beyond the arc and averaged 12.5 points against the Spurs. Against the Lakers, Bell averaged 7.4 points and shot less than 40% from the field and the three-point line.
On the other hand, LeBron has destroyed Prince in this series. Prince started 1-for-19 in the first two games.
I think Manu is a very good team defender but taking off the rose colored glasses, you can see he isn't Michael Cooper.
If I'm supposed to give Manu one-on-one defensive props for his main assignment drastically improving against the Spurs, I must have missed that memo.
Then why did you go into a long spiel about how Prince was overrated?Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
So out of one side of your mouth you are criticizing LeBron for his passing and out of the other side of your mouth you are saying driving was the right move?Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
If the Piston's defense was as bad as you are making it sound, LeBron should have shot 50 times tonight.
That was as close to a player can get to winning a game by himself. His teammates were either fouled out or sucking and he carried them.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
Twist it however you want but if Manu had done that against the Pistons in the Finals, you along with 99% of every other Spurs fan would be planning the Manu statue outside the AT&T Center.
:lol @ the thought of a Spurs fan coming to post "wait wait wait did you see the Pistons' help defense when Manu was scoring his 30 points in a row? Kobe could have gone for 70. It wasn't Manu as much as Flip"
:lmao
Does anyone here think the Pistons' defense was good in the 4th and 2 OT?
if you compare it to the way teams like to key on Manu at the top, and the way they double Timmy before he gets to the paint. I'd say they were disrespecting Lebron's game.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerIsGood!
Did you notice how weak the double team was in the overtimes, when Lebron was isolating at the top of the key?
and they asked why when they went to trap Lebron why Lebron was able to get the ball back. :lol
It wasn't BAD defense though, just not the tightest. So Chuck was right when he was arguing about why they let him score 29 straight points!
Um, he finished +2 in a game they won by exactly two points. His teammates scored 61 points out of their first 80 or whatever it was and held their own whenever LeBron was on the bench.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
When Bell was scoring, it wasn't against Manu. I guess you were watching different games. In that one game where he hit four first half threes, one was against Elson, one was against Tony and two were against Fin. Manu's guy very, very rarely scores on him in a half court situation, mainly because he plays the weakside guy in the defense. But he was doing a solid job of not letting AK post him up and he even fronted Marion when he had to vs. Phx.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
He is overrated, but he's still the best they've got. I don't think anyone in the league can guard LeBron one-on-one. But there are like 30, 40 guys you can say that about. It's pretty much impossible to play shut down defense with today's rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
You're not paying attention. I was critical of his passing on the occasions that he was trapped or doubled. The main reason he scored 25 straight points or whatever it was is because when he was doubled, he passed late and poorly. I have no issues with his game when he was single covered.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Again, his teammates were pretty damn good on offense for 3+ quarters and if the whole team doesn't play well on defense then LeBron never gets the opportunity to win the game in OT. Hell if he makes the FTs in regulation there isn't even an OT.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
And if a team played defense like that, at home, against Manu, there would be a fan riot on the court and the coach would be torn limb from limb. There is almost always a guy waiting for him in the lane when he drives. I think it's pretty absurd that more attention is paid to Manu defensively in playoff games than LeBron, don't you?
Its pretty sad when james puts on the single best performance of these playoffs and we start measuring our epeens to it.
At least this should put the James choking in big games thing to rest.
Not in my opinion. One great performance does not a clutch player make.Quote:
Originally Posted by FuzzyLumpkins
Let Lebron do something like that a couple more times and make a few buzzer beaters when his team is DOWN. Then the clutch/choker debate will be different.
Missed most of this game but I did see Antonio McDyess get tossed. That had to have played a major factor in the game.
But I did catch the end and LeBron was incredible. Spurs really don't have anyone to match up with him. James White, maybe?
As far as the Pistons are concerned, it's becoming more and more evident that they were better with Big Ben.