How will Manu feel, Part II

...to be left out of the prestigious starter introductions on the world's biggest stage? When the Spurs show their finals video of players does his picture now come in sixth since the starters are higlighted first? Being called "one of the big three" but being introduced as an afterthought is sh*tty. It's like doing a lot of work with little recognition.

You can say, "who cares, he probably doesn't," but, that still has to suck to be relegated to being a bench player in the freakin' finals when he was starting in the finals a mere two years ago.

No need to suggest that the current system is working, it's obvious, I just think it has to annoy him to appear 'demoted' (esp. to the casual finals fan.) No matter what he says, everyone has an ego and his has been shot down for these finals.

I know, I know, "who cares as long as they win the series." I just had to offer one other possible reason why he looked so pissed at the Western Conference ceremony. :p:

I'm pretty sure they introduce the whole team. I could be wrong though.

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Originally Posted by EssaySpur1001

I'm pretty sure they introduce the whole team. I could be wrong though.

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They will but the starters get the super special extra recognition. The bench gets a simple mention.

As this is his first Finals appearance, I'm sure it will put a little bite of cold sadness on his heart.

They could do what the Hornets did. During their last regular season game in Oklahoma City they announced the whole team...even the inactive guys in suits. Then the starters were announced and they came down from the second level, through the crowd, and straight onto the court. All to a completely sold out arena.

...that was the loudest craziest introductions I've ever heard.

Because it's all about the introductions.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Body

As this is his first Finals appearance, I'm sure it will put a little bite of cold sadness on his heart.

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:lol

this is how they did it in 2005 http://youtube.com/watch?v=1xp0FPk10-w

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Originally Posted by Mr. Body

As this is his first Finals appearance, I'm sure it will put a little bite of cold sadness on his heart.

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I'm sure it will, smartass :p: Great response though. :lol

Manu will feel good getting his ring. who gives a fuck about intros

I'm sure he'll get a special intro because even during games when he gets off the bench, Stan yells "HERE COMES MANU!!!" He doesn't do that for anyone else.

Has there ever been a Finals MVP that comes off the bench? He could possibly be the first.

I rather doubt that bothers Manu at all. He is about winning, not where in the lineup he is introduced. And besides, everyone in the gym realizes he wasn't "demoted", but rather did what was best for the team, and that's what these guys are all about. THE TEAM.

That is what makes them so great. No one on this team is worried about individual accolades. They just want to win.

OOOOOOOOOOOO BOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOO
MANU is a human being ….he does care if he starts or not …He wants to start but to better the team he does not …and that is not rewarded specifically to him but the whole team gets rewarded



I JUST WISH THAT MANU GET THE FINALS MVP
WOOOOWW HOW AWSOME WOULD THAT BE
I JUST WISH HE WOULD TURN HIS ANGER AND BEAT THE HELL OUT OF CAVS/PISTONS AND BECOME THE FISRT BENCH PLAYER TO EVER WIN THE FINALS MVP


Since this is not going to happen ..I just am sorry for him because he deserves to start…and deserves to be recognized !!!

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Originally Posted by SAGambler

I rather doubt that bothers Manu at all. He is about winning, not where in the lineup he is introduced. And besides, everyone in the gym realizes he wasn't "demoted", but rather did what was best for the team, and that's what these guys are all about. THE TEAM.

That is what makes them so great. No one on this team is worried about individual accolades. They just want to win.

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Tired of hearing all this about "that's what was best for the team". How do we know that?? Spurs always play better the second half of the season. In 2005 we managed to win a championship with Manu starting. I don't really care if he starts or not as long as he gets his minutes but i hate it when people try to imply that the team would not be as good if he was starting.

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Originally Posted by midgetonadonkey

Has there ever been a Finals MVP that comes off the bench? He could possibly be the first.

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Unless Duncan absolutely gets shut down and Ginobili goes all whirling dervish on the Cavs/Pistons, commands double teams, averages a triple double and single-handedly shuts down LeBron/assorted Pistons, I doubt hes going to beat out Duncan. Tim is just too foundational for this team to succeed.

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Originally Posted by rob5

Tired of hearing all this about "that's what was best for the team". How do we know that?? Spurs always play better the second half of the season. In 2005 we managed to win a championship with Manu starting. I don't really care if he starts or not as long as he gets his minutes but i hate it when people try to imply that the team would not be as good if he was starting.

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I second that emotion.

I strongly doubt Manu will get Finals MVP. He'd probably have to outscore Tim by 10 points per game to do it. There is nothing wrong with this, Tim is the team's (and the league's) best player. He deserves every accolade he gets and deserved several that he hasn't gotten.

Seriously though, if Manu didn't get it in '05, when he was the team's best player in 3 of the 4 wins, he's never going to get it. He can't play any better than he played that year.

Finley plays better when he's starting. Manu plays the same either way and he energizes the team and plays starter minutes anyway.

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Originally Posted by aaronstampler

I strongly doubt Manu will get Finals MVP. He'd probably have to outscore Tim by 10 points per game to do it. There is nothing wrong with this, Tim is the team's (and the league's) best player. He deserves every accolade he gets and deserved several that he hasn't gotten.

Seriously though, if Manu didn't get it in '05, when he was the team's best player in 3 of the 4 wins, he's never going to get it. He can't play any better than he played that year.

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Worrying about MVPs are for Suns and Mavs


Taking the title and shoving it down everybody's throats is for Spurs. Team.

Manu on the bench is best for the team because despite all his team player comments, Fin has never psychologically gotten over being a starter. It's nothing intentional or malicious on his part, he simply doesn't function the same way as a reserve. He's played too many years as a starter to know any other way.

People forget even last year when Fin had a good series against the Mavs in the 2nd round, he was starting for us, alongside Manu and Tony and Bruce and Tim.

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Originally Posted by EssaySpur1001

Finley plays better when he's starting. Manu plays the same either way and he energizes the team and plays starter minutes anyway.

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using your analogy, why don't we try starting Beno and bring Tony off the bench. Maybe he'll get 25/12

I remember Manu was saying the good thing about coming off the bench is it allowed him a little more breathing room and a little bit more room for mistakes. By the way Manu just wrote a new article and said that He didn't celebrate the WC Championship because he knows that the works not over yet.

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Originally Posted by rob5

using your analogy, why don't we try starting Beno and bring Tony off the bench. Maybe he'll get 25/12

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Because the Spurs are usually against having the PG commit 10 turnovers and getting the ball stuck on the rim in the 1st 5 minutes resulting in a nice double digit deficit to start the game.

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I JUST WISH THAT MANU GET THE FINALS MVP
WOOOOWW HOW AWSOME WOULD THAT BE
I JUST WISH HE WOULD TURN HIS ANGER AND BEAT THE HELL OUT OF CAVS/PISTONS AND BECOME THE FISRT BENCH PLAYER TO EVER WIN THE FINALS MVP

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Yeah, that would be awsome but I think 2005 was his best shot at getting it.
I thought he deserved it that year as much as Tim did.

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Originally Posted by rob5

using your analogy, why don't we try starting Beno and bring Tony off the bench. Maybe he'll get 25/12

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I know you're kidding, but in all seriousness Beno has been pretty decent this year in the games Tony was out injured. He had some good games against Houston, Memphis and Portland.

But yeah... I think I'll stick with Tony. Barely. :depressed

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Originally Posted by Alamode

...to be left out of the prestigious starter introductions on the world's biggest stage? When the Spurs show their finals video of players does his picture now come in sixth since the starters are higlighted first? Being called "one of the big three" but being introduced as an afterthought is sh*tty. It's like doing a lot of work with little recognition.

You can say, "who cares, he probably doesn't," but, that still has to suck to be relegated to being a bench player in the freakin' finals when he was starting in the finals a mere two years ago.

No need to suggest that the current system is working, it's obvious, I just think it has to annoy him to appear 'demoted' (esp. to the casual finals fan.) No matter what he says, everyone has an ego and his has been shot down for these finals.

I know, I know, "who cares as long as they win the series." I just had to offer one other possible reason why he looked so pissed at the Western Conference ceremony. :p:

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ok, now you're posting just to post.

and... he looked pissed at the western conference championship ceremony?
goddamn you people are lame

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Originally Posted by BeerIsGood!

Because the Spurs are usually against having the PG commit 10 turnovers and getting the ball stuck on the rim in the 1st 5 minutes resulting in a nice double digit deficit to start the game.

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getting the ball stuck on the rim...hey that's hard to do! :toast

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Originally Posted by rob5

getting the ball stuck on the rim...hey that's hard to do! :toast

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That's the one area where Beno has Jordan, Magic, Bird, and TD beaten. Or at least tied.

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I just think it has to annoy him to appear 'demoted' (esp. to the casual finals fan.)

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If there is anything that Manu cares about more than the perception of the casual finals fan, I haven't seen it yet.

I would love to see Manu put on a performance that would warrant him being voted MVP.

That would be great to add to his already impressive resume.

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Originally Posted by aaronstampler

I strongly doubt Manu will get Finals MVP. He'd probably have to outscore Tim by 10 points per game to do it. There is nothing wrong with this, Tim is the team's (and the league's) best player. He deserves every accolade he gets and deserved several that he hasn't gotten.

Seriously though, if Manu didn't get it in '05, when he was the team's best player in 3 of the 4 wins, he's never going to get it. He can't play any better than he played that year.

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Who ever gets the finals MVP will be:on the winners team and will have the best Stats numbers most likely,and Manu,like any other player in the finals has a chance to win it,regardless on who is the best player of the league SO FAR.So if Manu does play like vs the suns,he has a shot to ¨finally¨win the finals MVP aword

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Originally Posted by Alamode[B

]...to be left out of the prestigious starter introductions on the world's biggest stage?[/B] When the Spurs show their finals video of players does his picture now come in sixth since the starters are higlighted first? Being called "one of the big three" but being introduced as an afterthought is sh*tty. It's like doing a lot of work with little recognition.

You can say, "who cares, he probably doesn't," but, that still has to suck to be relegated to being a bench player in the freakin' finals when he was starting in the finals a mere two years ago.

No need to suggest that the current system is working, it's obvious, I just think it has to annoy him to appear 'demoted' (esp. to the casual finals fan.) No matter what he says, everyone has an ego and his has been shot down for these finals.

I know, I know, "who cares as long as they win the series." I just had to offer one other possible reason why he looked so pissed at the Western Conference ceremony. :p:

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He'll probably be relieved as that NBA finals spotlight would really show off his big ol' bald spot.

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Originally Posted by mabber

He'll probably be relieved as that NBA finals spotlight would really show off his big ol' bald spot.

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too bad dirk wont be able to show off his ugly teeth in the finals. :lol

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Originally Posted by ArgSpursFan

too bad dirk wont be able to show off his ugly teeth in the finals. :lol

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He got to show those fake things off last year :p:

You know, there is always something to complain about, isn't there?

Manu starts and people complain that he doesn't get the ball enough, because he's out there for most of the time with Timmy and Tony. Manu doesn't start, but plays the same minutes and has the same role and gets the ball more often because he's out there as the primary playmaker/scoring option, and people complain because he's not a starter.

You can't have it both ways, and there are benefits to the team with Manu coming off the bench - Finley/Barry's improved play, improved bench productivity, the ability to stay in games and rest others longer because there isn't such a drop off.

:p:

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Originally Posted by easjer

You know, there is always something to complain about, isn't there?

Manu starts and people complain that he doesn't get the ball enough, because he's out there for most of the time with Timmy and Tony. Manu doesn't start, but plays the same minutes and has the same role and gets the ball more often because he's out there as the primary playmaker/scoring option, and people complain because he's not a starter.

You can't have it both ways, and there are benefits to the team with Manu coming off the bench - Finley/Barry's improved play, improved bench productivity, the ability to stay in games and rest others longer because there isn't such a drop off.

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you´re right lets bench TP. :p:

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Originally Posted by spursgrl20

this is how they did it in 2005 http://youtube.com/watch?v=1xp0FPk10-w

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The Detroit announcer says "Rosha" instead of Rasho...

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and... he looked pissed at the western conference championship ceremony?

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actually he didn't look to happy or really wasn't into celebrating with the others. I even noticed that Tim tried to push him in there but it didn't work :lol
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/anexos/imagen/07/673113.jpg

I bet He was already thinking about the NBA finals.

As my coach used to say, it ain't about who starts but who finishes.

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Originally Posted by thispego

ok, now you're posting just to post.

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Um, no. But thanks for the warm thought.

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Originally Posted by ArgSpursFan

Who ever gets the finals MVP will be:on the winners team and will have the best Stats numbers most likely,and Manu,like any other player in the finals has a chance to win it,regardless on who is the best player of the league SO FAR.So if Manu does play like vs the suns,he has a shot to ¨finally¨win the finals MVP aword

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Hopefully Manu doesn't play like he did versus the Suns. The Spurs need him to show up for more than half the series.

As far as the 2005 MVP goes, I still can't believe fans can't get over it. Duncan easily deserved it. If the award was called "Best Offense Player During The Finals Games That Were Played At Home", then yeah Manu should have won that award hands down.

As far as what this thread is about ... the thread starter must not understand how Manu works. He's Tim Duncan-esque as far as not caring out recognition. He doesn't GAF if he gets the credit, the limelight, the accolades or anything like that. Manu just wants to win. That's it.

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Originally Posted by timvp

... the thread starter must not understand how Manu works. He's Tim Duncan-esque as far as not caring out recognition. He doesn't GAF if he gets the credit, the limelight, the accolades or anything like that. Manu just wants to win. That's it.

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Yep


Yep.

Pop has said that Manu is the fiercest competitor that he has ever been around in all his years. Manu could care less if he gets credit or not, as long as they win.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Hopefully Manu doesn't play like he did versus the Suns. The Spurs need him to show up for more than half the series.
As far as the 2005 MVP goes, I still can't believe fans can't get over it. Duncan easily deserved it. If the award was called "Best Offense Player During The Finals Games That Were Played At Home", then yeah Manu should have won that award hands down.

As far as what this thread is about ... the thread starter must not understand how Manu works. He's Tim Duncan-esque as far as not caring out recognition. He doesn't GAF if he gets the credit, the limelight, the accolades or anything like that. Manu just wants to win. That's it.

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True.The team needs him 110% focused for the whole series.At the same time we all know that manu lives and makes his paycheck out of these kind of games.Hopefully He´ll find the way to do something positive(scoring or rebounding or asisting or stealing) in order to get another ring.

If Manu plays like he did in the first few games of the Jazz series, then the Finals will be ugly.

You know Timmay and TP will show up.

Could you imagine if TP got to have a hurt Hughes, Eric Snow, and a rookie try and guard him? Not to mention Drew Gooden on Duncan. That would be 100x better than Billups and Sheed/McDyess.

Manu might not matter in a series against Cleveland.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Hopefully Manu doesn't play like he did versus the Suns. The Spurs need him to show up for more than half the series.

As far as the 2005 MVP goes, I still can't believe fans can't get over it. Duncan easily deserved it. If the award was called "Best Offense Player During The Finals Games That Were Played At Home", then yeah Manu should have won that award hands down.

As far as what this thread is about ... the thread starter must not understand how Manu works. He's Tim Duncan-esque as far as not caring out recognition. He doesn't GAF if he gets the credit, the limelight, the accolades or anything like that. Manu just wants to win. That's it.

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I think Manu fans will be disappointed because Manu will only go apeshit, when he sees the team struggling. I think he'll play well, but not anything insane or anything like that. This team has everyone pitching in, even moreso than 2005 .

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As far as the 2005 MVP goes, I still can't believe fans can't get over it. Duncan easily deserved it. If the award was called "Best Offense Player During The Finals Games That Were Played At Home", then yeah Manu should have won that award hands down.

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I still think it could have gone either way. Manu singlehandedly was responsible for some wins just as much as Tim. It's not like Manu can compete with Tim defensively, but his crafty steals and defensive plays come in handy for a SG.
Hypothetically, If Manu does have a great Finals performance, I don't see a problem with him winning it, because on the 80's Laker teams, though Magic was the best player, it got passed around a couple times.
But it doesn't really matter, I want to see everyone play well.
Some Spurs fans are spoiled for Manu, can you imagine if Tim or Manu, thought the same way some of us do? It'd be a repeat of the Lakers 2004 Finals implosion.

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Originally Posted by Corn on the Colb

If Manu plays like he did in the first few games of the Jazz series, then the Finals will be ugly.

You know Timmay and TP will show up.

Could you imagine if TP got to have a hurt Hughes, Eric Snow, and a rookie try and guard him? Not to mention Drew Gooden on Duncan. That would be 100x better than Billups and Sheed/McDyess.

Manu might not matter in a series against Cleveland.

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What make you think manu may not show up?

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Originally Posted by ALVAREZ6

The Detroit announcer says "Rosha" instead of Rasho...

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He also calls both Manu, and Tony, basketball "gods" from Argentina, and France.



(or it least that's what it sounded like, :lol)

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Originally Posted by ArgSpursFan

What make you think manu may not show up?

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Did I say that he wouldn't?

People are saying they hope he doesn't play like he did in the beginning of the Suns series.

So I simply made an argument that it might not even matter if he plays terribly or brilliantly with the matchups that the Spurs would have against the Cavs.

Read the post again or something.

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Originally Posted by TMTTRIO

actually he didn't look to happy or really wasn't into celebrating with the others. I even noticed that Tim tried to push him in there but it didn't work :lol
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/anexos/imagen/07/673113.jpg

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I laughed at how stoic he was when the camera showed his lack of emotion, it was a little scary actually.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Hopefully Manu doesn't play like he did versus the Suns. The Spurs need him to show up for more than half the series.

As far as the 2005 MVP goes, I still can't believe fans can't get over it. Duncan easily deserved it. If the award was called "Best Offense Player During The Finals Games That Were Played At Home", then yeah Manu should have won that award hands down.

As far as what this thread is about ... the thread starter must not understand how Manu works. He's Tim Duncan-esque as far as not caring out recognition. He doesn't GAF if he gets the credit, the limelight, the accolades or anything like that. Manu just wants to win. That's it.

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I guess "Manu showing up" is defined solely on how many points he scores.

Anyway, I'm as happy as anyone we won in 2005, but I think you're engaging in revisionist history if you think Duncan played well. He pretty much played as badly as he can play in that series, thanks to Detroit throwing both Wallaces on him and also because he had two bad ankles.

Tim was a minus player in the series and Manu was like a +60 or whatever it was, and it can be argued that Horry was actually their 2nd best player in the Finals. Manu did have a couple of bad games in Detroit, but Tim struggled mightily as well. He barely shot 40% that series and the Pistons were crushing us inside and on the boards.

Tim is the best player in the NBA, but you have to admit he was severely limited in those finals.

I wouldn´t be sorprised if Pop brings Manu back to the starting lineup for the finals,out of cortessy and appriciation for him.

Manu will get the MVP ... the only MVP he never got ... up to now ... later you hung up that #20 ... btw ... we coulg hung Beno, rigth?

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Originally Posted by aaronstampler

I guess "Manu showing up" is defined solely on how many points he scores.

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So 8 points per game on 25% shooting in three of the six games was Manu "showing up" for the entire series? He averaged six rebounds and four assists in those three games. That made up for his scoring?

Does Manu ever do anything wrong in your eyes?

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Anyway, I'm as happy as anyone we won in 2005, but I think you're engaging in revisionist history if you think Duncan played well. He pretty much played as badly as he can play in that series, thanks to Detroit throwing both Wallaces on him and also because he had two bad ankles.

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21 points, 15 rebounds, two assists and two blocks against a four-time defensive player of the year isn't good enough for you? And even though he was hurt, he led the team in minutes, points, rebounds and blocks.

He wasn't his usual greatness, but he could have played a lot worse considering his injury and who was guarding him.

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Originally Posted by aaronstampler

Tim was a minus player in the series and Manu was like a +60 or whatever it was

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Everytime you cite this stat, it gets more and more in Manu's favor. Get the right numbers if you are going to go back to it time and again.

And if plus/minus is so important, how can you then argue when I say Manu didn't show up for most of the Suns series? Manu was seventh on the team in plus/minus that series.

In fact Manu had the sixth best +/- in the Nuggets series, the seventh best +/- in the Suns series and the fifth best +/- in the Jazz series. All the while, you've been worshiping the same and come down on anyone saying he isn't having a stellar playoff run.

If you are going to use +/-, you can't only use it when it favors Manu.

And before you use the bench excuse like I know you will, Oberto led the team in +/- from off the bench in the Nuggets series. In the Suns series, Barry, Horry and Oberto had a better +/-.

Let's see you spin those +/- numbers.

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Originally Posted by aaronstampler

and it can be argued that Horry was actually their 2nd best player in the Finals.

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That might be your dumbest comment of all. You are seriously trying to say that Horry was the second best Spurs player in the Pistons series? Seriously?

Yeah Horry played well and had a huge Game 5 but to think he was more valuable or better than Duncan shows how challenged you are. And it shows how much time I waste responding to you.

That's just stupid.

We were being crushed on the boards when we averaged more boards than Detroit?

With Tim bringing down over 14 a game?

I don't know what it is but Manu has dissapointed me this playoffs. Yes he had some very good games, but he just isn't the statistical beast in the playoffs as he was in 2005. Nor is he even matching his regular season outputs or exceeding them like he did in 2003 and 2004. His numbers are just not nearly as good as they were in the regular season. I don't think Parker's are as good as they could be either. Not that they are playing bad basketball, they are doing solid, but they both aren't touching their regular season numbers.

Manu isn't even his usual self int he +/- column as before, which means the Spurs are doing pretty darned good without him on the floor. Part of that is Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and solid play from others.

To me this playoff run has been most about Duncan, the team defense, and getting Parker, Manu, and others to show up at different times when needed. But no one outside of Duncan and Oberto are really 'stepping up' in the playoffs. Duncan is the only one really playing like a true 'beast'.

As for the 2005 playoffs, I definetly think you can make a case for Manu being the offensive MVP for the Spurs. Duncan deserved finals MVP because of his value on offense and defense -- I think Manu was the better offensive player that playoff and finals, but Duncan was the best overall player.

I think the stats show that Manu is not quite himself this playoffs. But at least Tony has picked up the slack in Manu's off games. In previous playoffs it was one or the other. Parker would do real well in 2004, then flame out, and Manu would just be solid. In 2005 it was mostly Manu with some Parker games in between. Last year they both were solid, but not good enough. This year it is similiar, but the team has just been more fortunate and solid both ends.

Hey Tim says that Manu doesn't have to score ;) :p: :lol (just kidding)

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"Honestly, it doesn't even matter if he makes a shot all game," Duncan said. "Just having him out there on the floor, making the hustle plays, knowing he's fighting and scrapping all he can, it's a big boost for us."

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I think we're expecting too much out of Manu. Don't expect him to be the '05 Manu again but he can still make hustle plays out on the court. I do think Manu is a lot like Tim in that he doesn't care what people think about him and I really don't think he cares about media attention.

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Originally Posted by TMTTRIO

Hey Tim says that Manu doesn't have to score ;) :p: :lol

I think we're expecting too much out of Manu. Don't expect him to be the '05 Manu again but he can still make hustle plays out on the court.

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:lol

We don't really need Manu to offensively explode all the time. Game 5 is a great example of that. Everyone has been pulling their weight this season. I mean, I think Oberto's been averaging nearly 10 points ppg, and Finley's been above 10 ppg, Bowen will get at least two big 3's. And so forth.

this reminds me of some chick where the daddy buys her a car and it is a different color then she wanted.

can we say spoiled and INSIGNIFICANT???

:dramaquee

He's a high impact kind of player, coming off the bench is Ok for him. Finley is like a slow burning lump of coal, and Manu as 6th man is like gunpowder.


He averaged 19pts, 4reb, 4ast and 2stl in the utah series, but somehow it feels like he's done more than the numbers show because he usually gets those points, rebounds, assists and steals when it really matters.

He's too jumpshot happy this playoffs, but maybe he'll be more agressive in the Finals. Maybe he's saving his body from too much punishment so he'll still be fresh in the western conference finals and the NBA finals. Then he'll be Jackie Manu Chan, Buster Manu Keaton, and Manu Knievel again. :clap

If there's any time for Manu to stop "Saving" himself, and just go all knives out. It's in the upcoming series.

The Finals are the biggest stage. No more waiting, no more anticipation.

Manu comes off the bench and wins the Finals MVP. That would be a perfect ending.

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Originally Posted by slayermin

Manu comes off the bench and wins the Finals MVP. That would be a perfect ending.

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That is my "Director's Cut" ending, unfortunately, as always, the producers will screw up. The only way Manu can win coming from the bench is the matches are close, because if they are blow outs like game 5 vs Utah, there is no way in hell Manu will be even mentioned as a contributor, let alone finals mvp, and that is one sacrifice Manu is doing coming from the bench, he is risking being a non-factor, and worst, carries the responsibility of lifting the team when it is sucking, something is not easy to do

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Originally Posted by timvp

So 8 points per game on 25% shooting in three of the six games was Manu "showing up" for the entire series? He averaged six rebounds and four assists in those three games. That made up for his scoring?

Does Manu ever do anything wrong in your eyes?

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There's more to a game than scoring points. If the rebounding and assists and defense are still there, you can't say a player had a total horrible, nothing performance just because he didn't score a lot. If in one of those games Manu had 20 points on 18 shots with 0 rebounds and 0 assists and shit defense, would you say he played well? No you wouldn't. So how can you say he plays terrible the other way then?

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Originally Posted by timvp

21 points, 15 rebounds, two assists and two blocks against a four-time defensive player of the year isn't good enough for you? And even though he was hurt, he led the team in minutes, points, rebounds and blocks.

He wasn't his usual greatness, but he could have played a lot worse considering his injury and who was guarding him.

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Took him an ass load of shots to get those 21 points per. And don't even get me started on all those turnovers. And last I checked, Rasheed isn't a four-time winner of anything. It's funny how with Tim everything besides points count, but with Manu you dismiss all the other stuff completely.

I don't get what your insecurity complex with Tim is. We all know he's the best player on the team, the best player in the league, the best player of the past decade. Nobody is taking anything away from him. But it like literally pains you to give Manu credit for anything, lest it take away from the mighty Duncan's legacy. Tim really doesn't need your help dude. I'm pretty sure he knows he's very good. There's a reason half the crowd bood when the voting got announced, because people who actually watched the games realized he wasn't their best player in that one series. God forbid that out of all the playoff series he's played his entire career that we can say just one measly series he wasn't our best player. Prepare for armegeddon!!!

If the NBA Finals award worked like hockey's Conn Smythe, you'd have a better argument. But if you don't want to give Manu credit for anything he does besides score, then I certainly shouldn't have to give Tim credit for being an inefficient, turnover prone mess in the '05 finals. He was certainly better protecting his own basket than scoring at Detroit's basket. And last I checked, most people think pretty highly of this Prince character, and Manu did pretty well against him. In fact, Manu's head-to-head domination of him (and they did match up on both ends) in games 1-2 were the main reason we were up 2-0 that series. John Hollinger even pointed that out. I guess you missed it.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Everytime you cite this stat, it gets more and more in Manu's favor. Get the right numbers if you are going to go back to it time and again.

And if plus/minus is so important, how can you then argue when I say Manu didn't show up for most of the Suns series? Manu was seventh on the team in plus/minus that series.

In fact Manu had the sixth best +/- in the Nuggets series, the seventh best +/- in the Suns series and the fifth best +/- in the Jazz series. All the while, you've been worshiping the same and come down on anyone saying he isn't having a stellar playoff run.

If you are going to use +/-, you can't only use it when it favors Manu.

And before you use the bench excuse like I know you will, Oberto led the team in +/- from off the bench in the Nuggets series. In the Suns series, Barry, Horry and Oberto had a better +/-.

Let's see you spin those +/- numbers.

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Actually he was tied for 4th vs Utah, with Tony, with +29. And those numbers were skewed by the complete blowouts in Games 3 and 5. If you look at the three meat games of the series, when the games were close, games 1,2, and 4, I think you'd find a more representative sample of how guys played. Manu played like what, 20 mins in Game 5? Maybe five of those in the second half? Hell, 20 of Tony's +29 came in the last game. Bruce was +16 for the series, yet +24 in game 5. Which tells you more, the first four games or the fifth? If you really want to use a total blowout to tip the scales, go for it.

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Originally Posted by timvp

That might be your dumbest comment of all. You are seriously trying to say that Horry was the second best Spurs player in the Pistons series? Seriously?

Yeah Horry played well and had a huge Game 5 but to think he was more valuable or better than Duncan shows how challenged you are. And it shows how much time I waste responding to you.

That's just stupid.

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You constantly defend Robert's contributions as a role player more than anyone on this board. In that series he did everything you could possibly want from him. He rebounded, passed, played great defense. He was our second best +/- that series. I bet in your report cards, if you were doing them, he consistently graded very well.

P.S. I totally enjoy how you pepper every post with put downs, insults, excessive sarcasm and just general jackass behavior. When I disagree with you, I still try to be respectful and talk to you like an adult. I guess it's too much to ask for you to return the courtesy. You act the same way toward me no matter how polite I am, it's just who you are. I know I haven't "shown you up" at all and I haven't done anything mean. I've simply disagreed with you. Still, you resort to childish insults and bullying tactics. It's just immature. I don't care if it's your board. I don't care if your wife runs it. I have a right to disagree with you about certain things and you have to deal with it. If you cannot be civil with me, either ignore me or ban me but realize I have not been disrespectful towards you.

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Originally Posted by midgetonadonkey

Has there ever been a Finals MVP that comes off the bench? He could possibly be the first.

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I hope so ... but for me is more important getting the ring, so ... I prefer got the ring ... and whoever be named MVP!, even Beno! :oops