did not do one rep higher than 180...thats pretty weak...i dont care how good u are...i kno some middle school kids who can bench that at least once
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did not do one rep higher than 180...thats pretty weak...i dont care how good u are...i kno some middle school kids who can bench that at least once
I can bench slightly more than that. giggle
-Mars
Source? That's pretty unbelievable.Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
Long arms. Not fully developed.
Who cares. He can hit from anywhere.
bullshit. I could bench 180 when I was in 12th grade
BingoQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Body
I suspect that Durant hasn't doen the combien at 100%. His results are too bad.
It was 185!
That extra poundage really makes a difference. Ha.
Doesn't matter. He isn't entering the American Weightlifting Association of America.
even if he couldn't which i highly doubt....... hes finesse player... it really doesn't matter.... hes not a low post player
I doubt Teyshaun Prince could get that up either
but still....does that drop his stock??? al harford benched that 22 times...could he really be the 2nd overall pick while not being able to bench that ammount not even once??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillmoe
ya but u dont get it..how is he going to play defense??? he is about to make the jump to the NBA...this is not high school and college anymore..he may struggle at first he needs to get his max to at least 220
A trainer can fix that in a year if its true. His skill set on the other hand....
Legs and core strength will be more important than how much he can max on bench.Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
Aaron gray has outjumped Durant in the combine.
Do you really think that Durant was doing these tests at 100%?
Yeah, there's a whole lot more nutshots at this level. :devilQuote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
how does tayshaun prince play defense? he guards big dudes like lebron and carmelo all the time.......
I think I remember an article when McGrady coming out saying he could only bench 135 once....who cares? When they decide to bring out the bench press rack to see which team wins then this will matter.
Do you have a 7 foot wingspan?Quote:
Originally Posted by ClingingMars
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillmoe
u find me his max! and then use that to back up ur arguement..i promise u prince is alot stronger than u think..
That's not even possible for someone his size. I know little kids that haven't even gone through puberty yet that can do that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by texasqb2
I guess Durant doesn't want to be picked by us since he performed very poorly. On the flip side, Oden blew everybody away! His speed and agility was off the charts for a player of his size.
No way. If that's true that's frighteningly weak. I haven't tried to bench press for max in years, but five years ago I did 225 nine times, and I'm 6'3" and 200 lbs. At the time I was 210. That's crazy. Is there a reliable source on this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasqb2
please find me that article!!! thats not true no player will be drafted in the nba if the cannot bench 135...get out of here
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandeDavid
saw it on PTI
No kidding. What's the source?Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandeDavid
Sure it is. the longer your arms are, the harder it is to put up weight on the bench. Besides, bench alone doesnt show how strong you areQuote:
Originally Posted by mavs>spurs
looks like he wont be invited to join the weightlifting competetion at next year's all-star game. too bad.
:rolleyesQuote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
Do you have a 7 foot wingspan?Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandeDavid
Who has the benching record for the Spurs?
I believe Mr. Kevin Willis of T-rex fame has it.
And anyone remember the reports of earl boykins being able to bench some ungodly number like 235?
Link
But Can He Play? Analyzing the NBA Pre-Draft Combine Results
by: Jonathan Givony
He has a 7-6 ¾ wingspan, and a 9-3 ½ standing reach. He jumps out of the gym with a 39 inch one-step vertical, bench presses 185 pounds 24 times and runs a 3.3 in the three quarter court sprint. But can he shoot? Dribble? Catch a rebound? Play? Do we even care?
It’s that time once again, our favorite time of the year of course; a few weeks before the draft when everything logical in regards to analyzing basketball gets flushed down the toilet. Instead we focus on superficial things that have proven again and again to have very little correlation with actual success in the NBA.
This player is superior to that player because his standing reach is two inches longer. That guy is a better prospect because he bench pressed 185 pounds 19 times instead of the 8 someone else did. Let’s just forget irrelevant things like how many points and rebounds a player averaged, what kind of drive he has to improve or how many games he helped his team win, because those obviously have no bearing on a player’s success.
Who was the top athlete in the 2003 draft? Thinking logically about that draft, you’d probably assume it was a toss up between Dwyane Wade and Lebron James. But in fact, it was 6-2 shooting guard Troy Bell, who did not make it past his rookie contract before being cut by the man who reached badly to draft him in Jerry West. Bell was affectionately nicknamed “Troy Airbell” by ACB Spanish league fans he horrified with the air-balls he jacked up playing for Real Madrid, and struggled this past season to run a D-League team. Bell measured a 41 inch vertical leap (which would rank 1st in this year’s combine), ran a 3.06 in the ¾ court sprint (also 1st), and bench pressed the 185 pound bar 17 times (fourth amongst guards). If Bell were eligible this year, he most likely again would be deemed the top athlete in this year’s draft too.
Who was (supposedly) the 2nd best athlete in that draft? Brandon Hunter, an eventual late 2nd round pick who was relegated to the 2nd division in Italy this year playing for Livorno. Dwyane Wade, possibly the best overall athlete in the NBA today, ranked 14th. Chris Bosh finished 51st. Chris Kaman 45th. In that same year, TJ Ford measured in as being slower in the various footspeed tests than Chris Kaman, Kirk Penney and Carmelo Anthony. Huh? Anyone that has ever seen him play would tell you that he is one of the fastest players in the NBA, if not the fastest.
In 2004, we found a similar story. Kirk Snyder came out as the top overall athlete, while players like Andre Iguodala, Luol Deng and Al Jefferson’s draft stock supposedly took a hit by measuring out as relatively poor athletes. That same Andre Iguodala who was robbed of the slam dunk championship a year ago, only recorded a 34 inch vertical leap, one inch more than J.J. Redick last year. Rickey Paulding, Timmy Bowers and Luis Flores were all declared amongst the top 10 athletes in the draft. One averaged 13 points per game this past season in France, one came off the bench in the Israeli league, and the other finished just a notch ahead of Brandon Hunter’s team in Italy and was also relegated to the 2nd division.
The 2005 draft combine was equally as pointless. Monta Ellis ranked as the worst athlete of all the players measured, coming out slow, weak and with very little leaping ability. Once the NBA season started and the ball actually rolled out on the court, though, he magically transformed into a spectacular athlete who can get his shot at will and dunks anything and everything that is remotely close to the basket, despite only being 6-3. Eventual rookie of the year Chris Paul was declared only the 15th best athlete amongst the players tested, and was somehow deemed slower than Deron Williams, Sean May and Wayne Simien. The athletic tests also led you to believe that Andrew Bogut was some kind of stiff who would never be able to keep up with the speed of the NBA--that is, until the players actually started playing basketball and we found out that he is actually a fine athlete for a player his size. Julius Hodge is out of the league thanks to a bad attitude, awful shooting mechanics and some very average athletic ability, but don’t tell that to the people who tested him out as the 26th best athlete in that draft, with a ¾ court sprint that would rank him amongst the fastest players in 2007.
In 2006, we again found some head-scratching results that made us question the validity of the NBA draft combine, and even make us wonder why exactly it’s even held. At the top of that list was Marcus Williams, who was, according to the combine results, probably one of the most unathletic guards to ever be considered a first round pick. We’re talking about a player that played in the best conference in America and got into the lane and created offense for his team almost whenever he pleased against the top defensive guards the NCAA has to offer, and then continued to do so in the NBA playing for the New Jersey Nets this season. All it took was five minutes watching him on tape or in person to realize that, but the results of the combine would never tell you that. The top ten athletes in the draft last year were, in this order: David Noel, Ronnie Brewer, Dwyane Mitchell, Daniel Horton, Rodney Carney, Randy Foye, Taquan Dean, Brandon Bowman, Nik Caner-Medley and Louis Amundson.
This year’s combine has to take the cake, though. Kevin Durant, who wowed NBA scouts and basketball fans around the world all season long with an incredible skill level and extremely impressive agility for a player his size, measured out as essentially the worst athlete in the draft. Just a few days ago we sat alongside those same NBA scouts drooling over the way he soared above the rim dunking the ball and running the floor like a gazelle…but the tale of the tape tells us that that was all a mirage. If there was ever a case to be made for the waste of time known as the NBA combine, it’s right now.
The combine results are hardly the Holy Grail in the evaluation process as far as NBA decision makers are concerned from what we are told, but people who did not pay much attention to how players performed during the season seem to place a much larger emphasis on them then they probably should. As one NBA scout told us last year “it’s not really something we take into our war room and make decisions off of. It’s more something to glance at and use as another small part of the complicated puzzle that ends up telling you what we’d hope is the entire picture.”
The main point we are trying to hammer across here is that there are major concerns about whether or not the tests that are being done on the players at the pre-draft camp are actually transferable to a real basketball setting. The overwhelming amount of possessions in the NBA are played in a half-court set, which means that there really isn’t any valid measurement tool that is being utilized right now to properly evaluate how well a player will actually be able to create a scoring opportunity for himself or his teammate, how well he’ll be able to react defensively on the perimeter or whether or not a player will go out of his area to track down a rebound.
Measuring how fast a player gets from the free throw three quarters down the court to the basket is a tool that is very much non-transferable to an actual game setting. Evaluating lane agility speed only tells a small part of how well players are able to actually stay in front of someone on the perimeter. Assessing a player’s height, standing reach or vertical leap tells very little about how likely a player is to box out his man, anticipate where the ball will come off the rim and have the desire and tenacity to go get it.
There is more to slashing to the basket than just having an incredibly explosive first step to help a player get by his man. Players like Dwyane Wade and Chris Paul use a wide variety of hesitation moves and quick changes of direction to first get their man off balance and then blow them once they are on their heels. Knowing how and when to slow down and then speed up, change gears and use crafty ball-handling skills simultaneously is what will eventually decide whether or not a player will be successful in creating space to operate.
Once they get to the basket, having a 40+ inch vertical leap isn’t enough to actually put the ball in the hoop either. They’ll need to rely on their instincts, feel, touch, and body control to compliment their leaping ability and either get to the free throw line or finish the play.
Things like timing and instincts are what make the great athletes truly great basketball players, which is why indicating that one player is somehow superior because he has better pure physical attributes seems like a complete waste of time and money.
In the much more scripted and mechanical NFL, this may be a valid way to draw some noteworthy conclusions, but the results of the past few combines show that this isn’t the case are far as basketball goes. Some players are naturally incredible athletes, but only a handful of them actually know how to take fully advantage of their athleticism and translate it out on the court. Too many of them are spending their valuable time and resources on testing out well in the outdated evaluations that the NBA looks at during the combine, rather than working on actually becoming better basketball players in their rookie season.
The fact that the NBA does not to conduct a scientifically valid psychological test at the pre-draft camp to evaluate some key “intangibles” is a bit surprising. Being able to bench press a 185 pound bar 25 times is not going to make the difference in whether or not a player is able to come down with a rebound or come up with a loose ball, but hustle, timing, fundamentals, instincts, footwork, reflexes, tenacity and anticipation skills are. Having a tool at the NBA’s disposal to measure things like work ethic, motivation, leadership skills, coachability, decision making on and off the court, ability to fit in with a team structure, pressure situations and temptation, and other quote unquote “intangibles” would be a much more effective way to properly evaluate a player’s likelihood to succeed in the NBA. If the league is unable to put the top players in a competitive situation where their true basketball ability can really come out, their time and money might be better spent looking at other aspects of a player’s overall makeup to complete the entire picture.
And Avery could bench more than David, that should say a lotQuote:
Originally Posted by SilverPlayer
yall how can this not be a big deal...if the bench press did not matter or any of these combine stuff then why do they do it...he will get pushed around in the NBA...durant is looking more like a project than somebody who can make a big difference right away...2nd overall picks are supposed to make a big impact..not sure if durant will his rookie year
This sounds to me like you never saw Durant play, not onceQuote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
taken from the article above me....
Quote:
The 2005 draft combine was equally as pointless. Monta Ellis ranked as the worst athlete of all the players measured, coming out slow, weak and with very little leaping ability. Once the NBA season started and the ball actually rolled out on the court, though, he magically transformed into a spectacular athlete who can get his shot at will and dunks anything and everything that is remotely close to the basket, despite only being 6-3.
so like i said.... IT DONT MEAN SHIT!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillmoe
ellis is a guard he plays small guys...im pretty sure durant is not guarding any pgs in the league thats why this is going to be an issue he is going to be playing alot bigger and stronger forwards..
The results really don't mean much in the long run, but he should be able to bench it more than once. Most every other guy in pre-draft camp (even the ones with 7' wingspans) could do it.
if you think this is gonna hurt is draft position you are out of your mind...... muscle and strength is something that can be added on..... you cant add skill and heart if you don't already have it....
Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
They do it because they want to quantify a skill set. But when talking about basketball its absurd to think it can be quantified by athletic ability alone. If its all athletics guys like Duncan, McGrady, and Shaq would be the worst players in NBA history. Do you think a combine can quantify Duncan or Shaqs ability to post a player up?
It's about 30% athletic ability in the NBA, it will get you in the door, but if you can't put it together with skill and gamesmanship, you will ride the pine like James White until you learn the game.
Durant is going to be just fine...
There's no way it hurts his position. He's solidified at number 2. :)
Here's some other notes ...
Oden outperformed every prospect, including Kevin Durant, in drills. Even in speed and agility skills, he held his own with smaller, quicker guards.
Oden was faster than Durant in the 3/4-court sprint, quicker in an agility drill and had better results in vertical leap tests, according to The Oregonian. Oden also had only 7.8 percent body fat, by far the best among big men tested.
Among some of the numbers obtained by The Oregonian: Oden is 6-foot-11 without shoes, 7-feet with shoes; he weighs 257 pounds; his wingspan is 7 feet, 4.25 inches ; his running vertical is 34 inches.
Oden, however, didn't perform the bench press test — players are rated on how many times they can bench press 185 pounds — because of his recently injured right wrist. Durant was the only player unable to bench press the weight.
Durant, meanwhile, was slower than Oden in every drill. Oden ran the 3/4 court sprint in 3.27 seconds. The forward from Texas ran it in 3.45. Oden ran the agility drill in 11.67 seconds. Durant finished it in 12.33.
how much does the basketball weigh?
So Sam Presti or whoever is going to pass on the clearest #2 pick in the last decade and a consensus franchise changer because he can't bench 185?
This was posted by Shooger Bear in the NBA forum
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70054
In 2004, we found a similar story. Kirk Snyder came out as the top overall athlete, while players like Andre Iguodala, Luol Deng and Al Jefferson's draft stock supposedly took a hit by measuring out as relatively poor athletes. That same Andre Iguodala who was robbed of the slam dunk championship a few months ago, only recorded a 34 inch vertical leap, one inch more than J.J. Redick last year. Rickey Paulding, Timmy Bowers and Luis Flores were all declared amongst the top 10 athletes in the draft. One averaged 13 points per game this past season in France, one came off the bench in the Israeli league, and the other finished just a notch ahead of Brandon Hunter's team in Italy and was also relegated to the 2nd division.
I put on 18 lbs of muscle in one summer.
He can do the same.
First of all, there's no way it hurts his draft position. He could have failed the gender test and he'd still be a top two pick. He might have had the best freshman season of all-time.
That said, he didn't test out as that great of an athlete. I think he was probably trying, since there really no reason to do it and not try hard. If you aren't going to try, you can just skip the whole thing (like the Chinese prospect did this year).
One thing that people are overlooking about Durant is that he measured to be 6'10.25 with shoes. That means that he can be listed at 6'11 in the NBA. With his skillset and his size, Durant can make up for any athletic shortcomings he has.
The big winner in my eyes in the combine was Oden. He measured 6'11 with no shoes on. He had a 32 inch no-step vertical. He was as fast as Acie Law in the speed and agility drills. This guy just might be a David Robinson type freak athlete.
Oh and for Spurs fans laughing at Durant, Duncan wasn't able to bench the bar either when he was drafted. In fact, as of three seasons ago, Duncan's max bench press was still less than 200 pounds.
If you have long arms, it's hard to do bench press. Plus bench press has nothing to do with basketball. I don't know why they even test it anymore. It's useful to know for offensive lineman in football but that's about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
im a longhorn fan..i have seen him play....but im like everybody esle...never him go up agianst NBA talent bitch
ok so how does this not hurt his stock...not saying he wont be the 2nd pick but u cant tell me that ur not uneasy with a professional athlete who cant lift their own weightQuote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
this isn't football........ if you can put up 30 points a game, people forget that you cant play defense for shit........
Quote:
Originally Posted by cornbread
seven foot six brah
You tell them, Vince. :tuQuote:
Originally Posted by Vince Young
Maybe Boykins should be his bench press coach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillmoe
ya but isnt he supposed to be the next best thing??? a complete player??? how can we still say this if he cant lift any weights??? i mean i knew he was going to be weak...but damn he could not do it once...how is his work ethic..people trying to back him up saying he did not try...then dont draft a player who does not try..
if this is true thats sad
i bench more than that ho
It didn't hurt Duncan.Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
I really doubt you saw him play more than once or twice with how much you are doubting this kid. He played against some of the best competition in college and outplayed everyone. Stop worrying about his bench press, Garnetts been playing the post for years and I could bench more than he does, bitchQuote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
The biggest joke of the combine had to be Jared Jordan's no-step vertical of 14.5 inches. Jordan is a 6-foot, 183 pound point guard who some compare to Steve Nash. But 14.5 inch vertical? That's the worst vertical I've ever heard of from a basketball player. The second worst at the combine was 23 inches ... and that's pretty pathetic itself.
14.5 inches? timvp could top that in 6th grade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adam8065
he was a guard who ran around like a chicken with his head off...durants game has to change in the NBA...ok so all people who dont think it matters if he cant bench 185 than..how would he do if he never adds any muscle in the NBA...how good would u say he would be?
Tim Duncan can't bench 185.
Let's trade him.
This isn't the NFL combine, NBA combine results mean shit. The longer your arms are, the harder it is to perform a "simple" bench press. There's a reason most world ranked bench pressers have short arms, it's EASIER for them, giving them a natural advantage. That's also why you won't see too many people with short arms ranked among the leaders in shots blocked.
Pretty damn good.Quote:
how would he do if he never adds any muscle in the NBA...how good would u say he would be?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
ok buddy...since when is the big 12 an excellent basketball confrence??? and u dont kno how he plays because his game is not like garnetts game..has a similar frame but garnett has super cat like quickness and he plays bigs..who do u think durant is going to play agianst? sf and small 4s right...hes going to need muscle if he lacks in quickness..hes got a great range on his j but i cant see him scoring on the low block in the NBA that weak and ur dumb if u honestly think thats possible....WERE TALKING ABOUT THE NBA!!!!!! this is not highschool and college....
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
how do u kno that?
Like I said, I really doubt you have seen him playQuote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
nba players are pussies
coachmac87 vs everyone on spurstalk........ :lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
no sir i think its the other way around....adam morrison dominated the ncaa ranks and so did redick?? but the NBA is just totally different...he was a great college player and had the best freshman year ever...but if he was to have that same kind of impact he needs to bulk up...
Brady Quinn did just fine on the bench press...look where it got him.
On the field/court play > combines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillmoe
o yes... :toast
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDS4
talkin about basketball....both quinn and durant have something in common choking in the 4th
coachmac87 will never become scoutmac87. I'd take Durant second if he couldn't bench 85 pounds and had a ten inch vertical.
No part of Durants game is dependant on strength. He will be just as effective .But it seems that the only opinion that matters to you is yoursQuote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
how do u kno he wouldn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
id take him at 2!!! but i put weight on that body....if he added weight and muscle than now were talkin about a future hall of famer...not satisfied with that weak stuff like u are...u might as well draft a school girl
His max vertical is 28.5".Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
I don't know how it's possible to gain 14" between a no-step and max vert.
It's kinda strange.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
becuase he has not played a single game in the league....not getting ahead of myself like u are...u just assumme he can make the jump right away with no problem..
I saw that. I was guessing the 14.5 was a misprint but people who were there said he couldn't jump. So maybe the 28.5 is a misprint :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
No, but if I did I'd bench a Shaq and a half at least twice.Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
This makes no sense at all and proves your ignorance of UT basketball. I watched or went to every one of his games this year in Austin, and to say that Durant chokes in the 4th makes you look like an idiotQuote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
ok so tell me how he will be so effective in the NBA...is he going to be a 6'11 reggie miller or rip hamilton???
u just assummmmmmmmme he can't with all problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
And how do you know that adding weight wouldnt totally throw his game off and make him ineffective?Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
Damn, that would be awesome. I like the way you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
i dunno i want my no 2 pick to be a complete player...something that durant was in college he could work the low post and the outside...just want him to hold his own down there when he needs to and he will if he wants to make a career in the NBA
That's terrible, but I'm not surprised...have you seen the guy? He's got the body of an 11-year old.
My max is 230 and I only weigh 150.
Some people jump a lot higher when they run. But basketball players usually can at least have a decent no-step vertical. 14.5 inches is put to shame by most WNBA players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
And in basketball, no-step vertical is the one to look at. Rarely do you get the opportunity to run and jump during a game.
I remember Ice having some long skinny arms....I think he did alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Body
Draft Projection: Top 2
Similarities: Kevin Garnett meets Dirk Nowitzki
Notes:
Durant has made his mark quickly in Austin.
(Jim Redman/WireImage.com )
Durant declared for the 2007 NBA Draft on April 10th. He will hire an agent, ending his college eligibility.
Positives: Durant has it all: size, length, athleticism and a sweet-looking jump shot. Can play multiple positions on the floor. Very active. Aggressive. Looks to score and can kill you inside and out. Zips up and down the floor. NBA range on his 3-pointer. Quick release and perfect mechanics on the jump shot. He prefers to play outside in, but he's proven he can rebound and block shots. Great hands. Good ball handler. Virtually unstoppable on the offensive end.
Negatives: Strength. Durant's body keeps him from being one of the most complete forwards in the game. He needs to add 15 to 20 pounds of muscle. Given his slight frame, that could be an issue. Doesn't play defense with any intensity.
Summary: Some scouts are calling him a mixture of Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki. Others say he's the most complete college player they've ever seen. His play as a freshman has been epic. Right now he's the consensus No. 2 pick in the draft behind Greg Oden with a small minority of GMs saying he could beat out Oden for the No. 1 pick.
hmmmm seems like this scout thinks kinda like i do
Negatives: Strength. Durant's body keeps him from being one of the most complete forwards in the game. He needs to add 15 to 20 pounds of muscle. Given his slight frame, that could be an issue. Doesn't play defense with any intensity.
isnt that exactly what i was sayin??? i think so
He didn't say it would hurt his draft level.Quote:
hmmmm seems like this scout thinks kinda like i do
No, you say you wouldn't take him at #2.Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
Everyone thinks he could add some weight and strength, but they realize he's 18 years old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALVAREZ6
:lol :lol
we dont give a shit fagvarez
i said i would take durant at two...scroll up and check that out...but everybody is saying in this chat room is saying that he does not need to add any weight( u said the same thing) and i was telling everybody that he did...thats my point...if he ever wants to be the great player he can possibly be he needs to get stronger
Fantastic.Quote:
i said i would take durant at two
End of thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
Nobody said he couldnt add some weight, just that him not having a strong bench wouldnt keep him from being a great playerQuote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
ouch check that out!!
i think its funny how people are trying to change their arguement once they realize that im right...o god it feels good to be right
You only see what you want to see it would seemQuote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87