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Forget the finals MVP after 3 i don't see how he needs another one at this point, although i do think if the Spurs win it he will get the MVP again. To me a 4th title puts him ahead of Shaq because Tim did just as much with a whole lot less around him. I say he is not only the best PF ever but in the top 10 of all time players if they get this 4th title.
he should be in between bird-magic...the knock on tim is his stats dont fare up well with these guys, but tims not known for stats....then again 4-5 of the guys on the list played with at least 2-3 HOFS and allstars and teams were stackd with players in the 80s
Well those guys played on better teams but as far as individual players go, no i don't think they are any better than Tim.Quote:
Originally Posted by TDMVPDPOY
oh my goodness...do you know why he was able to win with "less talent around him"?...BECAUSE THE WEAK COMPETITION THAT HE FACED :bang
yes, the weak "competence" he faced. thank you for pointing that out, cleveland fan.
in an era of kobe, shaq, nash, amare, iverson, carmelo, dirk, kidd, wade ... yeah, it's a cake walk.
LOL, how you left James out. NiCeQuote:
Originally Posted by cole
One clear level above Hakeem & Shaq. Still lacking one more ring to overtake Bird though.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b3...3/74973560.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by thewatcher
Shaq has 4 rings...Quote:
Originally Posted by SpursIndonesia
I know people say that Timmy is better than Shaq... yadda yadda...
You CANNOT deny Shaq's dominance for a decade. SHAQ changed how the game was played... and now that he effectively gone... it can go back...
They are different types of players... but overall... I still think Shaq at his peak was more effective than imposing his will on a game than Timmy ever was... he was simply UNSTOPPABLE...
Timmy will last longer... if he chooses to... but Shaq was a beast...
I agree with you that in his prime, Shaq was "simply UNSTOPPABLE". And I'm amazed at how quickly people are forgetting that, now that he's past his prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sec24Row7
That being said, if Tim wins another Championship in the next few days, I put him equal to Shaq. They'll both have 4 rings. Tim will probably have four Finals MVPs to Shaq's three, and I believe he also has one more regular season MVP. (Of course, it is a pathetic joke that Shaq only got one regular season MVP in all those dominating years). I think Tim has had a better career on the defensive end, and almost as good a career on the offensive end. They're both team players and they both have the unquenchable desire to win and to do what it takes to win.
Tim is definitely the greatest PF ever, one of the top ten Centers ever, and one of the top ten PLAYERS ever. How does he fit in with MJ, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain? Does he crack the top 5 ever? I'm not sure yet, but he's still got a few years left to climb that ladder.
:king
:lol competence.
Let's have this conversation in 4-5 when he's done. When the dude completes his journey, let's take a look at the path.
Top 10 Ever.
Best PF Ever.
I agree...but what if the "'08 plan" comes into place and we can sign a big-time FA? We reel off a few more championships...does he make the top 5 then? I think so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Creation88
Of course these ratings are all subjective, but here is the argument as to why if the Spurs win this title he would not only equal but surpass both Bird and Shaq.
Shaq:
Overall resumes slightly favor Duncan with a 4th ring. Shaq is the better scorer but Duncan is clearly the better defender and all around player. Shaq also has his "period of dominance at his peak" argument. People forget that Duncan led the Spurs of a sweep of Shaq and Kob in '99 and Duncan punched Shaq and the Lakers in the mouth in '03 with 37 and 21 to end the run of 3. Also, in Shaq's MVP season of '00 the Spurs were the only team with a winning record against LA but Duncan was out for the playoffs so they never met. Point being that Shaq's dominance over Duncan at his peak was at best marginal because Duncan also dominated Shaq during that era at times. Duncan also has a clear edge in terms of consistent excellence. His teams have never been exited from the playoffs in the first round and have only been swept once (admitedly to the Lakers but Duncan swept Shaq too) while Shaq's teams have been swept many times. Shaq also has never won a Title without a Top 5 player as a sidekick whereas Duncan has never had a Top 10 player in any of his Title runs.
Bird:
Look at the resumes:
Elected to Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (1998); NBA champion (1981, '84, '86); NBA Finals MVP (1984, '86); NBA MVP (1984, '85, '86); Nine-time All-NBA First Team (1980-88); All-NBA Second Team (1990); All-Defensive Second Team (1982, '83, '84); NBA Rookie of the Year (1980); One of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996); Olympic gold medalist (1992).
Duncan has comparable or better in every category except he is short 1 league MVP but he dominates Bird as a defensive player and will have more Titles and Title MVP's. I love Larry Legend but he is now looking up at TD.
I really wish they could change that 50 Greatest Players anytime soon. Hopefully Big Dave wont be kicked out.
I think they won't change the Top 50 but instead make it the Top 60 or 75. I think David is pretty safe in the Top 25 right now. Gervin will go before David.
Weak competence? Seems like thewatcher has a 'weak competence' of the English language.
Shaq dominated the game on the offensive end, but Timmy dominates on both ends of the court. That is one thing a lot of people forget and that's how everyone is perceiving LeBron as being the next MJ....they are wrong, too many people just look at the offensive side of the ball.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thewatcher
Stop crying bitch
The best I have ever seen. I rank him at the top.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbreiden83080
Snaq OMeal really didnt change how the game is played. When Snaq came into the league, we were in the league of centers. Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Deke, Snaq, Zo...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sec24Row7
Snaq's career is effectively over and we are in the league of slashers. LeDirk, Wade, Kobe, Melo, etc.
Shaq was stopped twice at the peak of his performance by Tim Duncan.
Shaq has three Finals MVPs. Duncan is about to get his 4th. Duncan is a much better defender than Shaq ever was. Duncan is not a liability at the end of games as Shaq is. Even when his FTs arent hitting, Duncan is still a go to player. Tim was an MVP more than Shaq. Tim is a finals MVP more than Shaq. Tim was a AllNBA Defense more than Shaq. Tim has as many All-NBA first teams as Shaq, but has played considerably less seasons. Duncan will still rack them up while Shaq is done.
Tim > Snaq
lmao a Cleveland fan bitching about winning because of weak competition. Nice teams you beat. Gilbert and Butlerless Wizards, the mediocre Nets, and an overrated Pistons team. Now that your actually playing a title contender your going to get owned.Quote:
Originally Posted by thewatcher
I love Tim Duncan, but no way is he on Shaqs level. Even when he wins this one title. In Shaqs prime he couldn't be stopped. Here are his playoff averages during his prime.
98: 30.5 PPG, 61 FG%, 10.2 RPG 2.9 BPG
99: 26.6 PPG, 51 FG%, 11.6 RPG 2.9 BPG
00: 30.7 PPG, 57 FG%, 15.4 RPG 2.4 BPG(Won title)
01: 30.4 PPG, 55 FG%, 15.4 RPG 2.4 BPG(Won title)
02: 28.5 PPG, 53 FG%, 12.6 RPG 2.5 BPG(Won Title)
03: 27.0 PPG, 54 FG%, 14.8 RPG 2.8 BPG
Both have 8 All NBA 1st Team appearences despite there being two Forwrd spots on the 1st Team. During Shaq's prime he was on it every year as well as 04, 05, and 06.
I love Tim Duncan and recognize his greatness. I refer to him as the best power forward of all-time, but Tim Duncan was never able to dominate the game the way Shaq did.
Tim Duncan definetly has a good shot to surpass Shaq though, since he is only 31 and has 4 titles(let's assume that). At the pace he's going I wouldn't be surprised to see him match MJ's 6 titles.
Tim clearly stopped Shaq in his prime, twice. In '99 and '03 he dominated Shaq. The Spurs closed down the Forum in '99 and wiped the floor with Shaq. In '03 the Spurs stopped the streak of 3 Titles highlighted with a 37 and 21 performance at Staples where Kobe and Fisher were crying on the bench as the Spurs blew the Lakers out. Put Kobe on the Spurs and Duncan may well be playing for his 7th or 8th Title right now. The Spurs are two freakish plays away from playing for 5 in a row right now.
Shaq has never done anything unless he had a Top 5 player as a teammate. That is not a sign of dominance. A dominant player was MJ who could win titles with a borderline Top 10 player in Pippen and a bunch of role players. Shaq had some very mediocre teams in Orlando with him as the feature (even though he had Penny Hardaway). Duncan has never done worse than a Round 2 exit and even then it has always been to the team that won the WC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbreiden83080
wasnt this brought up in "05" championship
it comes up every finals
This is one of the best observations I've seen on the board ..Quote:
Originally Posted by texasqb2
MJ, Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russell, West, Abdul-Jabar, and Robertson are all clearly better than Duncan.
Duncan is right around Baylor and Shaq all time.
MJ was no doubt a great player, but his team won 55 games after he left. Exactly what team nowadays could you take their best player off, and they win 55 games? To say that MJ had no help was absolutely absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by aggie93
And for the record, the only player who has been truly dominant throughout his career has been Wilt Chamberlain.
Anyone who lists 8 players and uses the phrase "CLEARLY better than Duncan" is a moron..........oh yeah or a suns fan, wait isn't that the same thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt
This just gets better and better with you...........MJ was not truly dominating?-hahahahahahahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt
Outside of your ridiculous generalization, any reason why you think Duncan is better than Wilt, Russel, Magic, Bird, Robertson, etc.?Quote:
Originally Posted by texasqb2
Do me a favor.......go look at what all Timmy has done in his career and make a case why he isn't even in the discussion like you say he isn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt
there is one common statistic in all of sports.........WINNING
That is what Timmy is....a winner
He is about to be the foundation of one of the greatest winning % teams of all-time throughout his ERA...He is the leader on a team about to win it's 4th title.
1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Kareem
6. Oscar
7a. Bird
7b. Timmy
9. West
10 Baylor
Shaq in his prime was no match for Hakeem, or Robinson in their prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by peskypesky
Russell won (I believe) 11 championships and averaged over 20 board a game.Quote:
Originally Posted by texasqb2
Wilt averaged 50 and 20 in a season, won two championships, and is the most dominant player of all time.
Bird played against much more difficult competition and was a much better offensive player than Duncan. He can absolutely dominate games.
Magic won five championships and changed the way the game and the point guard position were played.
Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double.
Abdul-Jabar is the all time leading NBA scorer, won six championships, and six MVP awards.
MJ won six championships, and is arguably the best player of all time.
Jerry West has 13 all-star selections and 10 NBA first teams.
He is as good as Magic and Bird. Neither Magic or Bird were vastly better than Tim on offense infact i don't think they were better at all, because Tim is so efficient. Tim is a better defender than both Magic and Larry and if he gets this he will have one more ring than Larry. I say he is right in there with both of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt
Bird was not MJ on offense he never avg 30 a game and only more than 25 4 times. Tim is so efficient he never takes a lot of shots because he does not need to. So was Larry they both could have put up bigger numbers than they did but Larry is not a lot better than Tim on offense, Jordan yes Bird no.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt
Bird was a much better passer than Duncan is, and is way more versatile on offense, so I'd consider him the better player on that end of the court. You can't go by hypotheticals and, "what would happen if Duncan took more shots", simply because they didn't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbreiden83080
Also, if I'm in a close game during the fourth quarter, I'd take Bird over Duncan 10 out of 10 times.
Passing yes Bird was better but Duncan is the best passing big man in the game today bar none. I think Tim is the best passing PF of all time. They scored differently Bird got some on the low block but he was deadly lights out from the perimiter just an amazing shooter. I am a Bird fan so don't think i am trashing him. Bird's not in Duncan's class on D or even close to it. Bird was an ok defender, Duncan is one of the best defensive big men ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt
Please tell me you don't think that Russell in todays game of 7'0 athletic big men would get 20 Reb a game. He did that mainly against 6'5 white guys in his day.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt
Probably not, but you never know. Even if he gets 15 he still has 11 fucking rings.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbreiden83080
Yeah because he played with the best team by far in an era where there were, what maybe half the teams that there are now if that. Wilt was much better than Russell in every facet of the game, he just did not play on the same teams that Russell did.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt
11 rings > 3 soon to be 4 rings. Sorry guys.
Also thewatcher is the biggest dumbass on this board. 'nuff said.
-Mars
So by that logic Horry is better than Duncan.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClingingMars
If Timmy wins a 5th title I would make my top 10...
1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4a. Magic
4b. Timmy
6. Kareem
7. Oscar
8. Bird
9. West
10 Baylor
Tim is better than Russell, Wilt no but Russell yes. He is the most overated big man of all time. He played on the best team of his era period. If he had not been with the Celtics Wilt would have been the only guy anyone talked about in that era because he was so much more dominant than Russell. I love how idiots still say to this day that Russell always had Wilt's number. Yeah right look at the stats, Wilt killed Russell when they played he could not stop him nor could anyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by spurtime
Well guess what? Shaq swept the Spurs in 2001 in the WESTERN CONFERENCE FINALS. In 02 Shaq beat him again in a 4-1 series. Then in 04 Shaqs Lakers triumphed over Tim's Spurs again. I would never say that Shaq or Duncan dominated the other. These guys ruled the West for a period of 7 years.Quote:
Tim clearly stopped Shaq in his prime, twice. In '99 and '03 he dominated Shaq.
Shaq may have hhad Kobe in his Laker runs, but the LA Show was a two-man team. Duncans Spurs always had the depth. Bowen, Ginobili, David Robinson, Parker? Not your typical scrubs either.Quote:
Put Kobe on the Spurs and Duncan may well be playing for his 7th or 8th Title right now.
Dennis Rodman, Toni Kukoc, and Horace Grant were a little better than roleplayers..... Especially Rodman who was getting 15 RPG and was a hall of famer.Quote:
A dominant player was MJ who could win titles with a borderline Top 10 player in Pippen and a bunch of role players.
Props to Duncan, but basketball is a team game.Quote:
Duncan has never done worse than a Round 2 exit and even then it has always been to the team that won the WC.
I think it's an outrage you guys ALREADY think Tim is better than Magic or Bird.
Wilt didn't own Russell. He scored more points, but he also took a lot more shots. Russell was more content anchoring the defense and controlling the glass. Russell was 57-37 against Wilt in the regular season and 29-20 against him in the playoffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbreiden83080
http://espn.go.com/nba/s/2003/0116/1493700.html
His rebounding numbers in their head to head matchups were pretty much equal to Wilt's. It was Russell's defense that was the constant for the Celtics over the course of his 11 championship seasons.
Using the logic that Wilt's scoring puts him over the top against Russell is akin to saying that Carmelo Anthony is the best forward in the game because of the scoring numbers he puts up. It ignores all the things that other players do to help their teams win and make them superior relative to Carmelo.
Had TD been drafted by Boston and had TD won 4 titles in Boston, they would be placing Tim above Larry but below Havlicek and Bill Russell in the Celtic pecking order.Quote:
Originally Posted by aggie93
Not a 2 man team they had Horry in his prime, Fisher very good pg during those years, Rick Fox was a good player for them. Spurs best years i would agree were a little deeper than the Lakers but Kobe counts for a lot he is an all time great player. Other than Jordan is there really any player better than him at the 2 guard?Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel
Wilt was just as good on D a better rebounder than Russell and a much better offensive player even Russell admits to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by spurtime
Block statistics weren't kept back then, but I've heard Russell's contemporaries rave about his one on one and help defense being the best they'd ever seen. Also, I've never seen Bill Russell compare himself favorably to the other great players in the history of the game, unlike Wilt (God rest his soul) was prone to do. That was more indicative of a character trait then rooted in reality imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbreiden83080
Am I the only guy who thinks Kareem is the undisputed second best player of all time?
To me Wilt is, Kareem is in the top 5 for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by ~~Ice Man 2000~~
I've always seen him as having the best combination of stats and winning.
How many of those won a title without another hall of famer as their teammate? The only thing most of those guys have on TD is a few decades for their legend to grow.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt
duncan will have more titles then this one if he wins this year
I hope he makes it a mission to repeat, Just to make the Dynasty complete.Quote:
Originally Posted by ducks
Problem is, I am worried that too much success in the next couple of years might make it more likely for him to hang it up at the end of his current contract.
??Quote:
Originally Posted by SpursIndonesia
Bird won three titles: 81, 84 and 86. Tim is playing for his 4th title.
You can't judge a player mid-career, but when Timmy retires he's 2nd to jordan.
And Bird only (!) got 2 Finals MVP's. Duncan's got 3 (as of this moment.)Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman
i meant competitionQuote:
Originally Posted by spursfan09
its hard when you dont know a language, that is not your natal one, very good. thanks for pointing
About the only thing Bird has on TD is his skin color and playing in the large media market that still bemoans TD being 'stolen' from them a decade later.
Bird was seriously fun to watch and he was so damn good at trash talking, he was probably the best trash talker in NBA history, because he could always back it up. For instance, Bill Walton said that after a timeout, where the coach painstakingly drew up a play, Bird would walk out on to the flloor and tell his opponents exactly what play he was going to run and he would still score on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
:lol
That is good stuff.
im not a cleveland fan. im a anti-duncan, anti-bowen, anti-parker and anti-popQuote:
Originally Posted by Diesel
Bird's so underrated on this board. Bird could do anything on the offensive end, and he was the second greatest clutch player I've ever seen. To me, Bird vs. Magic is a toss up for the second greatest player all-time. Those 80s Celtics had the hardest roads to the Finals in NBA history. In the early 80s they had to go through a supremely talented Sixers team that boasted one of the 5 greatest teams in NBA history with their 1983 group. Milwaukee was a step below, but still a hell of a team with lots of scoring. Then, they had to go through some of the deepest teams in NBA history in the Pistons... and after all that work, three times they had to go up against a ridiculously deep, talented, and rested Lakers team that pretty much got a bye to the Finals in a weak Western Conference.
:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimcs50
You're referring to the one he hit in Xavier McDaniel's face at the Kingdome.
I think Bird's incredible, and I'm starting to think Duncan deserves to be in the discussion. Considering that Duncan's career isn't close to over, that's saying something.Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
Bird is the reason I'm an NBA fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
I was in college in RI his rookie year. We used to drive into Boston and get cheap tickets at the door on game nights.
You see Bird play live in his first season you become a fan.
He was incredible.
And Duncan does deserve to be in the discussion. I can't imagine what we'll be saying after he retires considering his accomplishments so far.
No way homer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slinkyman
Just wait til Timmy retires and about 15-20 years later people will look back and finally realize how dominating he is.......All these fans on here writing about the guys in the past always inflate how good they are after they have been gone so long and we forget to stop and realize how good some of these players in this era are.....Kobe/Timmy....The way Tim can change a game on both sides of the ball makes him better than Magic and Bird
Another sort of category or modification of it will be created for Timmy, since it's hard to, in a limiting fashion, pinpoint his contributions while focusing on the position/skills that a PF traditionally has.
He loves playing out of position as it is.
His skills encompass those of being a scorer, rebounder, facilitator, shot blocker, passer and not to forget, team defender. Those times when he lurks around the perimeter or top of the key for a medium range j or 2 come to mind also.
What should humble the skeptics is that TD likely has 5 more seasons playing at this level in front of him. His resume already is good enough to be an unanimous first ballot Hall of Famer. As long as the Spurs can keep the supporting cast around him, TP, and Manu replenished with talented like-minded teammates the legend will continue to grow.
:smokin
That's a great point. It will take ten years for people to look back at how good tim is... how good kobe, shaq, jkidd, cweb, dirk (elw), AI, and how good this era was in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by texasqb2