If they win Where will Duncan Rank all TIME??

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Originally Posted by texasqb2

Shaq dominated the game on the offensive end, but Timmy dominates on both ends of the court. That is one thing a lot of people forget and that's how everyone is perceiving LeBron as being the next MJ....they are wrong, too many people just look at the offensive side of the ball.

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This is one of the best observations I've seen on the board ..

MJ, Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russell, West, Abdul-Jabar, and Robertson are all clearly better than Duncan.

Duncan is right around Baylor and Shaq all time.

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Originally Posted by aggie93

Shaq has never done anything unless he had a Top 5 player as a teammate. That is not a sign of dominance. A dominant player was MJ who could win titles with a borderline Top 10 player in Pippen and a bunch of role players. Shaq had some very mediocre teams in Orlando with him as the feature (even though he had Penny Hardaway). Duncan has never done worse than a Round 2 exit and even then it has always been to the team that won the WC.

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MJ was no doubt a great player, but his team won 55 games after he left. Exactly what team nowadays could you take their best player off, and they win 55 games? To say that MJ had no help was absolutely absurd.

And for the record, the only player who has been truly dominant throughout his career has been Wilt Chamberlain.

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Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt

MJ, Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russell, West, Abdul-Jabar, and Robertson are all clearly better than Duncan.

Duncan is right around Baylor and Shaq all time.

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Anyone who lists 8 players and uses the phrase "CLEARLY better than Duncan" is a moron..........oh yeah or a suns fan, wait isn't that the same thing?

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Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt

MJ was no doubt a great player, but his team won 55 games after he left. Exactly what team nowadays could you take their best player off, and they win 55 games? To say that MJ had no help was absolutely absurd.

And for the record, the only player who has been truly dominant throughout his career has been Wilt Chamberlain.

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This just gets better and better with you...........MJ was not truly dominating?-hahahahahahahaha

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Originally Posted by texasqb2

Anyone who lists 8 players and uses the phrase "CLEARLY better than Duncan" is a moron..........oh yeah or a suns fan, wait isn't that the same thing?

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Outside of your ridiculous generalization, any reason why you think Duncan is better than Wilt, Russel, Magic, Bird, Robertson, etc.?

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Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt

Outside of your ridiculous generalization, any reason why you think Duncan is better than Wilt, Russel, Magic, Bird, Robertson, etc.?

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Do me a favor.......go look at what all Timmy has done in his career and make a case why he isn't even in the discussion like you say he isn't?

there is one common statistic in all of sports.........WINNING

That is what Timmy is....a winner

He is about to be the foundation of one of the greatest winning % teams of all-time throughout his ERA...He is the leader on a team about to win it's 4th title.

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Kareem
6. Oscar
7a. Bird
7b. Timmy
9. West
10 Baylor

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Originally Posted by peskypesky

I agree with you that in his prime, Shaq was "simply UNSTOPPABLE". And I'm amazed at how quickly people are forgetting that, now that he's past his prime.

That being said, if Tim wins another Championship in the next few days, I put him equal to Shaq. They'll both have 4 rings. Tim will probably have four Finals MVPs to Shaq's three, and I believe he also has one more regular season MVP. (Of course, it is a pathetic joke that Shaq only got one regular season MVP in all those dominating years). I think Tim has had a better career on the defensive end, and almost as good a career on the offensive end. They're both team players and they both have the unquenchable desire to win and to do what it takes to win.

Tim is definitely the greatest PF ever, one of the top ten Centers ever, and one of the top ten PLAYERS ever. How does he fit in with MJ, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain? Does he crack the top 5 ever? I'm not sure yet, but he's still got a few years left to climb that ladder.
:king

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Shaq in his prime was no match for Hakeem, or Robinson in their prime.

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Originally Posted by texasqb2

Do me a favor.......go look at what all Timmy has done in his career and make a case why he isn't even in the discussion like you say he isn't?

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Russell won (I believe) 11 championships and averaged over 20 board a game.

Wilt averaged 50 and 20 in a season, won two championships, and is the most dominant player of all time.

Bird played against much more difficult competition and was a much better offensive player than Duncan. He can absolutely dominate games.

Magic won five championships and changed the way the game and the point guard position were played.

Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double.

Abdul-Jabar is the all time leading NBA scorer, won six championships, and six MVP awards.

MJ won six championships, and is arguably the best player of all time.

Jerry West has 13 all-star selections and 10 NBA first teams.

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Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt

Outside of your ridiculous generalization, any reason why you think Duncan is better than Wilt, Russel, Magic, Bird, Robertson, etc.?

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He is as good as Magic and Bird. Neither Magic or Bird were vastly better than Tim on offense infact i don't think they were better at all, because Tim is so efficient. Tim is a better defender than both Magic and Larry and if he gets this he will have one more ring than Larry. I say he is right in there with both of them.

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Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt

Russell won (I believe) 11 championships and averaged over 20 board a game.

Wilt averaged 50 and 20 in a season, won two championships, and is the most dominant player of all time.

Bird played against much more difficult competition and was a much better offensive player than Duncan. He can absolutely dominate games.

Magic won five championships and changed the way the game and the point guard position were played.

Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double.

Abdul-Jabar is the all time leading NBA scorer, won six championships, and six MVP awards.

MJ won six championships, and is arguably the best player of all time.

Jerry West has 13 all-star selections and 10 NBA first teams.

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Bird was not MJ on offense he never avg 30 a game and only more than 25 4 times. Tim is so efficient he never takes a lot of shots because he does not need to. So was Larry they both could have put up bigger numbers than they did but Larry is not a lot better than Tim on offense, Jordan yes Bird no.

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Originally Posted by dbreiden83080

Bird was not MJ on offense he never avg 30 a game and only more than 25 4 times. Tim is so efficient he never takes a lot of shots because he does not need to. So was Larry they both could have put up bigger numbers than they did but Larry is not a lot better than Tim on offense, Jordan yes Bird no.

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Bird was a much better passer than Duncan is, and is way more versatile on offense, so I'd consider him the better player on that end of the court. You can't go by hypotheticals and, "what would happen if Duncan took more shots", simply because they didn't happen.

Also, if I'm in a close game during the fourth quarter, I'd take Bird over Duncan 10 out of 10 times.

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Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt

Bird was a much better passer than Duncan is, and is way more versatile on offense, so I'd consider him the better player on that end of the court. You can't go by hypotheticals and, "what would happen if Duncan took more shots", simply because they didn't happen.

Also, if I'm in a close game during the fourth quarter, I'd take Bird over Duncan 10 out of 10 times.

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Passing yes Bird was better but Duncan is the best passing big man in the game today bar none. I think Tim is the best passing PF of all time. They scored differently Bird got some on the low block but he was deadly lights out from the perimiter just an amazing shooter. I am a Bird fan so don't think i am trashing him. Bird's not in Duncan's class on D or even close to it. Bird was an ok defender, Duncan is one of the best defensive big men ever.

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Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt

Russell won (I believe) 11 championships and averaged over 20 board a game.

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Please tell me you don't think that Russell in todays game of 7'0 athletic big men would get 20 Reb a game. He did that mainly against 6'5 white guys in his day.

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Originally Posted by dbreiden83080

Please tell me you don't think that Russell in todays game of 7'0 athletic big men would get 20 Reb a game. He did that mainly against 6'5 white guys in his day.

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Probably not, but you never know. Even if he gets 15 he still has 11 fucking rings.

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Originally Posted by OldDirtMcGirt

Probably not, but you never know. Even if he gets 15 he still has 11 fucking rings.

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Yeah because he played with the best team by far in an era where there were, what maybe half the teams that there are now if that. Wilt was much better than Russell in every facet of the game, he just did not play on the same teams that Russell did.

11 rings > 3 soon to be 4 rings. Sorry guys.

Also thewatcher is the biggest dumbass on this board. 'nuff said.

-Mars

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Originally Posted by ClingingMars

11 rings > 3 soon to be 4 rings. Sorry guys.

Also thewatcher is the biggest dumbass on this board. 'nuff said.

-Mars

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So by that logic Horry is better than Duncan.

If Timmy wins a 5th title I would make my top 10...

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4a. Magic
4b. Timmy
6. Kareem
7. Oscar
8. Bird
9. West
10 Baylor

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Originally Posted by spurtime

If Timmy wins a 5th title I would make my top 10...

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4a. Magic
4b. Timmy
6. Kareem
7. Oscar
8. Bird
9. West
10 Baylor

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Tim is better than Russell, Wilt no but Russell yes. He is the most overated big man of all time. He played on the best team of his era period. If he had not been with the Celtics Wilt would have been the only guy anyone talked about in that era because he was so much more dominant than Russell. I love how idiots still say to this day that Russell always had Wilt's number. Yeah right look at the stats, Wilt killed Russell when they played he could not stop him nor could anyone else.

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Tim clearly stopped Shaq in his prime, twice. In '99 and '03 he dominated Shaq.

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Well guess what? Shaq swept the Spurs in 2001 in the WESTERN CONFERENCE FINALS. In 02 Shaq beat him again in a 4-1 series. Then in 04 Shaqs Lakers triumphed over Tim's Spurs again. I would never say that Shaq or Duncan dominated the other. These guys ruled the West for a period of 7 years.

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Put Kobe on the Spurs and Duncan may well be playing for his 7th or 8th Title right now.

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Shaq may have hhad Kobe in his Laker runs, but the LA Show was a two-man team. Duncans Spurs always had the depth. Bowen, Ginobili, David Robinson, Parker? Not your typical scrubs either.

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A dominant player was MJ who could win titles with a borderline Top 10 player in Pippen and a bunch of role players.

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Dennis Rodman, Toni Kukoc, and Horace Grant were a little better than roleplayers..... Especially Rodman who was getting 15 RPG and was a hall of famer.

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Duncan has never done worse than a Round 2 exit and even then it has always been to the team that won the WC.

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Props to Duncan, but basketball is a team game.

I think it's an outrage you guys ALREADY think Tim is better than Magic or Bird.

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Originally Posted by dbreiden83080

Tim is better than Russell, Wilt no but Russell yes. He is the most overated big man of all time. He played on the best team of his era period. If he had not been with the Celtics Wilt would have been the only guy anyone talked about in that era because he was so much more dominant than Russell. I love how idiots still say to this day that Russell always had Wilt's number. Yeah right look at the stats, Wilt killed Russell when they played he could not stop him nor could anyone else.

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Wilt didn't own Russell. He scored more points, but he also took a lot more shots. Russell was more content anchoring the defense and controlling the glass. Russell was 57-37 against Wilt in the regular season and 29-20 against him in the playoffs.

http://espn.go.com/nba/s/2003/0116/1493700.html

His rebounding numbers in their head to head matchups were pretty much equal to Wilt's. It was Russell's defense that was the constant for the Celtics over the course of his 11 championship seasons.

Using the logic that Wilt's scoring puts him over the top against Russell is akin to saying that Carmelo Anthony is the best forward in the game because of the scoring numbers he puts up. It ignores all the things that other players do to help their teams win and make them superior relative to Carmelo.

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Originally Posted by aggie93

Bird:

Look at the resumes:

Elected to Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (1998); NBA champion (1981, '84, '86); NBA Finals MVP (1984, '86); NBA MVP (1984, '85, '86); Nine-time All-NBA First Team (1980-88); All-NBA Second Team (1990); All-Defensive Second Team (1982, '83, '84); NBA Rookie of the Year (1980); One of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996); Olympic gold medalist (1992).

Duncan has comparable or better in every category except he is short 1 league MVP but he dominates Bird as a defensive player and will have more Titles and Title MVP's. I love Larry Legend but he is now looking up at TD.

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Had TD been drafted by Boston and had TD won 4 titles in Boston, they would be placing Tim above Larry but below Havlicek and Bill Russell in the Celtic pecking order.