Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

All I have been hearing/reading is how great LeBron James is since his one shining moment in Game 5 against Detroit. Before the series started everyone here thought James would tear Bruce a new asshole, they thought he could singlehandedly cause headaches for the Spurs, and they thought his team should be taken seriously. People on this forum actually think the Cavaliers could beat the Spurs.

Alright, does anyone here really think this LeBron is better than Kobe Bryant? There isn't a single thing LeBron can do that Kobe probably could not do a little bit better. LeBron is shooting just .425 in these playoffs and in his last 9 games he has broken 30 points only twice. Kobe Bryant has been put in a similar position with his team for the past 3 seasons and he has never had that rough of a stretch....and you could make the argument that Kobe Bryant's teammates are worse.Factor in that Kobe plays in a tougher conference, and I see no comparison. Kobe is a much better shooter, he is much smarter with the basketball, he can also pass very well, and he is a much better defender than LeBron.

Would a Spurs/Lakers match up honestly concern anyone here? Hell a weaker Spurs team beat them when they had Shaq and Kobe (and '03 Kobe > '07 LeBron).

Dwayne Wade. He is just as good of a passer as LeBron (check his stats in the playoffs last year) he is a much better shooter (doesn't take much) and he is just as good at both getting to the rim and finishing. Overall, Wade is a much more efficient, and ultimately a better player. Frankly I cant think of one thing that LeBron does that you cant argue Wade does just as well if not better, maybe LeBron is a better rebounder, but Wade gets a lot of boards in big games too.

Carmelo Anthony. He gets a bad wrap on this board because of his off court issues, but its pretty easy to see that he is a much more dangerous scorer than LeBron. In the 5 games he played against the spurs he averaged over 28 points per game (that's more than lebron has averaged in any series) shooting 48 percent from the field, and that's against a team that plays defense. Carmelo is just as explosive (if not moreso) and a much better shooter from all over the court than LeBron. (and dont forget he is apparently the most clutch player in the league, hitting the highest field goal percentage of any NBA player in the end of games). Carmelo doesnt control the ball as much as LeBron so we do see passing as a major part of his game, but against the spurs in the playoffs he grabbed a lot of boards and played relatively well on the defensive end.

LeBron to me is the essence of an overhyped, decent player on a shitty team. I guarantee that Carmelo would shit on the cavs in a 7 game series, and I highly doubt the Cavs could have beaten a single team the Spurs played in the western conference playoffs.

The best wing players in the league according to me:
1) Kobe
2) Wade
3) Carmelo

Don't let the hype confuse you

Hell I wonder if Manu couldn't be a better player than LeBron if he was the star of his team

LeBron >>>>>>>>> Melo.

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Originally Posted by Texas_Ranger

LeBron >>>>>>>>> Melo.

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way to back up your argument there, i can see your basketball knowledge and it is quite overwhelming.

Melo plays with AI which take scoring pressure off him and LeBron has a much better all round game. He is still a great player but not as great as LBJ IMO atm.

Ummmmm...Carmelo put up more points per game before AI got to Denver.

I don't think anyone here is dissing Lebron. It's just that he has been hyped up so much by the media that he can not accomplish what is expected of him singlehandedly.

The thing that is different with Lebron when it compares to Melo and Wade is that Lebron's team is trash other than him. Dwayne Wade has Shaq who draws a double alot. Shit, Damon Jones looked like an All-Star with Shaq, now he sees anywhere from 1 second to 2 minutes playing time a game. So if you hold all else equal Lebron should be up in those 3, not saying he is the best, but saying that your not looking at the whole picture. You get no argument from me as Kobe being 1, but remember Kobe wasn't that great his first couple years in the NBA, and Lebron IS 22, probably younger than you.

Melo>>>>Lebron?

Shit...even I wouldn't go THAT far.

No, I think the Wade and Kobe point is well taken and I agree. But not Melo. Dude hasn't proven he can do shit in the NBA. He has MORE THAN ENOUGH talent surrounding him and they didn't even put up a fight against us, IMO.

You have a good argument for Kobe, but I would not say Kobe is a better passer than Lebron. Lebron has that vision in a basketball player that really can't be taught. He understands spacing on the floor very well, and his leadership comes with the trust in his teammates, no matter how much they suck. The same cannot be said for Kobe.
Wade is a good decision maker, and I would say on the same level as Lebron. However, having an over the hill Shaq is still better than having Z on your team, any day. As much as the Mavs tried to defend Wade, they still didn't have their whole defense designed around him, like the Pistons and the Spurs are trying to do, and I would go out and say that the Spurs this year are a MUCH better defensive team than Melo last year.
As for Melo, he can score and do nothing else. In the Spurs series, Melo was largely single teamed because the Spurs know that he can only hurt them with scoring, and cannot score enough to beat the Spurs single handledly. The attention was on AI, with multiple waves of defenders going at him, make him take difficult shots while cutting off his passing lanes.
James is seeing the same defensive scheme right now, and he is struggling mightily with it. But still, it's just one game. Given how well he responded in the Pistons series, I will not be surprised he will have a string of enormous games vs. the Spurs in the series, and getting a couple of wins in the process.
I will rank the wings:
1) Kobe
2a) Lebron
2b) Wade
3) AI
4) T-Mac (when not injured)
5) Melo

Of course, that is not counting PGs like Kidd and Nash, given we are talking strictly wings. And no, AI ain't no PG.

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Originally Posted by ambchang

You have a good argument for Kobe, but I would not say Kobe is a better passer than Lebron. Lebron has that vision in a basketball player that really can't be taught. He understands spacing on the floor very well, and his leadership comes with the trust in his teammates, no matter how much they suck. The same cannot be said for Kobe.
Wade is a good decision maker, and I would say on the same level as Lebron. However, having an over the hill Shaq is still better than having Z on your team, any day. As much as the Mavs tried to defend Wade, they still didn't have their whole defense designed around him, like the Pistons and the Spurs are trying to do, and I would go out and say that the Spurs this year are a MUCH better defensive team than Melo last year.
As for Melo, he can score and do nothing else. In the Spurs series, Melo was largely single teamed because the Spurs know that he can only hurt them with scoring, and cannot score enough to beat the Spurs single handledly. The attention was on AI, with multiple waves of defenders going at him, make him take difficult shots while cutting off his passing lanes.
James is seeing the same defensive scheme right now, and he is struggling mightily with it. But still, it's just one game. Given how well he responded in the Pistons series, I will not be surprised he will have a string of enormous games vs. the Spurs in the series, and getting a couple of wins in the process.
I will rank the wings:
1) Kobe
2a) Lebron
2b) Wade
3) AI
4) T-Mac (when not injured)
5) Melo

Of course, that is not counting PGs like Kidd and Nash, given we are talking strictly wings. And no, AI ain't no PG.

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Over the Hill Shaq> over the hill Z

plus I think Vince Carter should be on there somewhere

Kobe is above them all bearing in mind he has longer time to develop. Wade is a great player and probably just a bit ahead after winning finals last year. If LeBron can lead his team to finals victory (Which i would love to happen) he would catapult ahead of Wade IMO.

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Originally Posted by Thunder Dan

Over the Hill Shaq> over the hill Z

plus I think Vince Carter should be on there somewhere

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Vince chokes in playoffs...

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Originally Posted by Behold The KING

Vince chokes in playoffs...

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I don't think the argument is best swingmen in the playoffs. If that were the case Melo's name would probably never be mentioned

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Originally Posted by ambchang

I will rank the wings:
1) Kobe
2a) Lebron
2b) Wade
3) AI
4) T-Mac (when not injured)
5) Melo

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No way you can put LeBron ahead of wade, even when Shaq has been injured and it has been just wade he has consistantly preformed better both in the regular season and the playoffs.

And none of the arguments about why LeBron is better than carmelo make any sense, he averages 4 apg and he doesn't handle the ball all that much.

If Carmelo held the ball for 14 of every 24 seconds im sure he could make a few nice passes. We doubled AI because he is a PG and loves to dominate the ball so we tried to force him into turnovers, the same way we did against phoenix and Utah.

LeBron is the Cavs PG, so he gets all the pressure.

That certainly doesnt mean he's better than Melo.

(Oh and btw, Carmelo hasnt done anything in the playoffs because he has never got to play pushover teams like the raptors, wizards, or nets.

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

No way you can put LeBron ahead of wade, even when Shaq has been injured and it has been just wade he has consistantly preformed better both in the regular season and the playoffs.

And none of the arguments about why LeBron is better than carmelo make any sense, he averages 4 apg and he doesn't handle the ball all that much.

If Carmelo held the ball for 14 of every 24 seconds im sure he could make a few nice passes. We doubled AI because he is a PG and loves to dominate the ball so we tried to force him into turnovers, the same way we did against phoenix and Utah.

LeBron is the Cavs PG, so he gets all the pressure.

That certainly doesnt mean he's better than Melo.

(Oh and btw, Carmelo hasnt done anything in the playoffs because he has never got to play pushover teams like the raptors, wizards, or nets.

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Lebron doesn't play point, and the fact that you claim he does throws out any credibility of your arguments to say he isn't a good swingman

LeBron is the PG of the Cavs the same way Duncan is the PG of the spurs, the offense runs through him

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

LeBron is the PG of the Cavs the same way Duncan is the PG of the spurs, the offense runs through him

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as does the Heat's offense runs through Shaq, then he passes out when doubled, the Wade is quick enough to get out of closing defenders. See Lebron just has 2 guys on him at all times, if not three, and if they have a guy on him, they have 2 guys spying on him for when he does get the ball. Wade has a luxury of Shaq. Not saying Wade isnt a great player, but your not being fair to the arument. Again, nobody is going to double team Z, and the rest of the Cavs fall somewhere inbetween shit and decent, most migrating towards the former.

It amazes me to see all the Nuggets love when they havn't done anything ever. They cry that Denver doesn't geographically fall in the eastern United States, then complain that Ohio isn't considered the West. Then they try to make arguements that the leftovers of the 2003 draft are better than Lebron, who again, plays on a shitty ass team.

I'd put LeBron over Wade and Melo. Just my .02

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

Hell I wonder if Manu couldn't be a better player than LeBron if he was the star of his team

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If Manu was on another team and was the the #1 guy, I believe we would realllly see greatness. As the #1 option, Manu would get lots of triple doubles, highlights, clutch play and would be the ultimate leader being unselfish and knowing when to take over.

Charles Barkley has said that on another team Manu would average 25 points a game. I believe that. He'd be a huge star. I don't care what any doubters say. Manu Ginobili lead his team to the Olympic Gold over the USA. That really means something. Boys got more skill than even some Spurs fans give him credit for.

This is Denver fans:

You know when you win a contest of some sort, but you don't win the first prize, say a Ferarri you get the 2nd prize say a Buick Lemans, or the third prize a Dodge Dart, your try to justify why getting a Dodge dart is better than a Ferrari for like better gas milage, or less taxes, or lower insurance costs, but you know you would rather have the Ferrari, its like that.

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

No way you can put LeBron ahead of wade, even when Shaq has been injured and it has been just wade he has consistantly preformed better both in the regular season and the playoffs.

And none of the arguments about why LeBron is better than carmelo make any sense, he averages 4 apg and he doesn't handle the ball all that much.

If Carmelo held the ball for 14 of every 24 seconds im sure he could make a few nice passes. We doubled AI because he is a PG and loves to dominate the ball so we tried to force him into turnovers, the same way we did against phoenix and Utah.

LeBron is the Cavs PG, so he gets all the pressure.

That certainly doesnt mean he's better than Melo.

(Oh and btw, Carmelo hasnt done anything in the playoffs because he has never got to play pushover teams like the raptors, wizards, or nets.

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What are you talking about? Lebron averaged 25.7/9.2/8.5 vs. the Pistons. Sure the Pistons didn't perform up to expectations, but they are definitely a good team. And when he had to play pushover teams, he averaged 24.7/7.3/8.5 vs the Nets, and 27.8/8.5/7.5 vs. the Wiz, for a playoff average of 25.1/8.2/8 in the whole playoffs, these are SICK numbers, even against JV league.
Melo against the Spurs w single coverage? 26.8/8.6/1.2. And why does it not make any sense? You measured Kobe's and Wade's passing ability vs. Lebron, why can't we measure Melo's when he truly sucked in that department? Is Melo is better scorer? That is arguable, but he is definitely not as good a passer, or leader for that matter. You have to come up with a consistent criteria to measure these players, you can't say that Wade > Lebron because he won more, Kobe > Lebron because he has more moves, and Carmelo > Lebron because he scores more. I can use the same method and say that Lebron > Wade because he rebounds more and has a better shooting percentage, and Lebron > Kobe because he passes more and rebounds better.
Last point, the reason Melo doesn't handle the rock as often as James, despite playing a similar position, probably tells you why he is not as good as Lebron.

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Originally Posted by SA210

If Manu was on another team and was the the #1 guy, I believe we would realllly see greatness. As the #1 option, Manu would get lots of triple doubles, highlights, clutch play and would be the ultimate leader being unselfish and knowing when to take over.

Charles Barkley has said that on another team Manu would average 25 points a game. I believe that. He'd be a huge star. I don't care what any doubters say. Manu Ginobili lead his team to the Olympic Gold over the USA. That really means something. Boys got more skill than even some Spurs fans give him credit for.

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Manu is way too out of control and inconsistent to be a franchise player, and he doesn't have the durability to battle for 35 to 38 minutes the whole season. I would put him on the Joe Johnson level as a franchise guy.

Melo and Kobe came into the NBA with polished offensive skills. You don't really learn that stuff in the NBA, you already have it. As Chuck said: "If you can't shoot by now, you never will". People like LeBron and Parker and Bruce can improve their shot, but they will never reach the transcendent money level of someone like Kobe (IMO). Of course, Jordan did improve his shot quite a bit.

I think it's fair to say Kobe is better than LeBron at this point. Everyone got excited about LeBron putting up 40, but let's not forget that Kobe recently put up 80.

It could be argued that what Kobe accomplished with the dredges of the Lakers the last few years is comparable to what LeBron has done. Yeah, he got to the finals, but who's impressed? The question is, did he beat the Pistons or did they decline? Perhaps the only way to truly answer that is to beat the Spurs, or at least put up a damn good fight.

I'm not so sure that Melo, given his own Eastern conference team, wouldn't perform just as well as Wade or LeBron. He seems a little less mentally with it and professional, so maybe not. But he is right on their level. I disagree with the poster about Iverson. We didn't try to stop Melo because we couldn't stop Melo--we knew we could stop Iverson so we did that.

Yeah but Melo doesn't play defense.

I'd put Lebron in front of Wade as well, but Kobe's untouchable in that 1 spot.

It's a tossup really. I mean Wade is a great player and I think I'd take him over LeBron simply because he's a better free-throw shooter. Carmello I don't know though. He can hit from anywhere, yes, but he's soft and doesn't have a killer instinct. Melo and Kobe are probably the best scorers but Wade and James can get it done in other ways.

So I think it's a tie right now as far as Wade and James are concerned. But Kobe is untouchable as the #1 wing in the NBA.

I would take LeBron over all those other chumps. Combination of youth, size and skills unmatched by any in the NBA.

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Originally Posted by Thunder Dan

This is Denver fans:

You know when you win a contest of some sort, but you don't win the first prize, say a Ferarri you get the 2nd prize say a Buick Lemans, or the third prize a Dodge Dart, your try to justify why getting a Dodge dart is better than a Ferrari for like better gas milage, or less taxes, or lower insurance costs, but you know you would rather have the Ferrari, its like that.

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that pretty funny , but I don't know if Melo is as far down as a Dodge Dart, if Lebron is a Ferrari :clap

The Spurs OWN lebron, like they own Amare

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Originally Posted by O-Factor

The Spurs OWN lebron, like they own Amare

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After one game? I doubt it, LeBron will still average close to 30 in this series

Unless its a one-game series....no one is owning anything yet.

D-Wade can't shoot, has or has had a security blanket of Shaq and a couple of other future HOF players, and gets his scoring numbers padded by the ridiculous calls he gets.

Carmelo is a great scorer but doesn't distribute and can't get a pretty damned talented team out of the first round. Plus he's a knucklehead.

Kobe is the best pure player of the four, but he doesn't lead, and as much as he's lauded for his 4th-quarter heroics, he goes 1-on-5 and shoots his team out of games too. And the way he quit in Game 7 against PHX last year was damn near shameful.

LeBron does more with less than the other three, and puts up his numbers despite almost never having someone else create easy offense for him.

LBJ >>>> the rest

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Originally Posted by michaelwcho

I disagree with the poster about Iverson. We didn't try to stop Melo because we couldn't stop Melo--we knew we could stop Iverson so we did that.

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finally, someone gets it :elephant

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Originally Posted by O-Factor

The Spurs OWN lebron, like they own Amare

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Here is a Private Message this idot (O-Factor) sent to me, notice how the bold relates to his last post, and pretty much every post he has:

Your a cavs fan that would be happy if the Spurs won the finals huh? You are nothing but a piece of shit troll. We come here for intelligent analysis of the finals and people like you start shit and get pissed when we go on the offensive. Simple as that. Look I've come across your posts and no one is a bigger asshole than you. But there are some of us can be bigger assholes. You don't like me messaging you? Too bad prick.


this guy hasn't an objective bone in his body

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Originally Posted by bdictjames

Yeah but Melo doesn't play defense.

I'd put Lebron in front of Wade as well, but Kobe's untouchable in that 1 spot.

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:lol and Lebron plays defense? :drunk

When they go head to head, Lebron doesnt even want to man up on Melo. He always pansies out and one of his teammates takes Melo :smokin But on the other hand, Melo has asked in past games to man up on James and loves the challenge of it.

Lebron wouldn't know D if it hit him on the head.

Lebron vs Denver this season - 24ppg (40% shooting, 14% from 3)

Melo vs Cleveland - 27ppg (63% shooting) only one game though, he missed the 2nd game

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Originally Posted by Cleveland Steamer

After one game? I doubt it, LeBron will still average close to 30 in this series

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It doesn't matter what Lebron averages in these 4 games of the series. We are still going to own him. He wont win a game in this series, that much is obvious!

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Originally Posted by Thunder Dan

Here is a Private Message this idot (O-Factor) sent to me, notice how the bold relates to his last post, and pretty much every post he has:

Your a cavs fan that would be happy if the Spurs won the finals huh? You are nothing but a piece of shit troll. We come here for intelligent analysis of the finals and people like you start shit and get pissed when we go on the offensive. Simple as that. Look I've come across your posts and no one is a bigger asshole than you. But there are some of us can be bigger assholes. You don't like me messaging you? Too bad prick.


this guy hasn't an objective bone in his body

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Glad you are getting my message out. I stand by every word of it....Its kind of hard to be objective when we completely controlled every facet of the game, and that is because we were rusty, especially offensively. You don't like it, too bad, this is a Spurs forum!

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Originally Posted by O-Factor

Glad you are getting my message out. I stand by every word of it....Its kind of hard to be objective when we completely controlled every facet of the game, and that is because we were rusty, especially offensively. You don't like it, too bad, this is a Spurs forum!

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you have never posted one thing that shows any knowledge about basketball. You just ra-ra the Spurs in every post, and I'm not just talking about your posts against the Cavs, its the Suns, the Mavs, anyone who isn't the Spurs. Your a complete idiot and have never posted anything with any sort of intelligence ever. It doesn't suprise me seeing that you are either a)12-15 years old, b) a older uneducated gent. say 25-32 who lives with his parents working a dead end job and lives only for the Spurs and nothing else. Somehow I know one of those hit it right on the head.

Typical post by you:

"The Suns suck, we own them period"

http://damnhomie.ytmnd.com/

make sure sound is on

:lol

How the hell is Melo on that list? He's one of the top offensive players in the league, but he doesn't play an ounce of defense. Both ends are equally important.

and since that dunk on Sheed... LeBron is better than Wade, somethin switched on in his head at that moment, he's a completly different player. He's just got no chance in this series. Wade woulda got swept too

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Originally Posted by Dro210

and since that dunk on Sheed... LeBron is better than Wade, somethin switched on in his head at that moment, he's a completly different player. He's just got no chance in this series. Wade woulda got swept too

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WTF are you talking about, he had a mediocre game 6 and a shitty game 1 on thursday.

BTW, you say Melo doesn't play defense? Has anyone ever accused James of playing defense?

If I'm starting a team and can pick any wing right now, I'd pick LeBron hands down. It's not even close.

LeBron can score. He's a very good rebounder. He has turned in to a very good defender recently. He gets blocks and steals. But above all, LeBron is one of the best passers I've ever seen from a guy his size. He has amazing court vision and is a very willing passer.

LeBron's intangibles are off the charts. He's a great leader who is all about winning. His teammates love him and will go to war for him. LeBron is damn smart on the court and off of it. He's been in the spotlight since he was 15 so he can handle pressure.

Wade is a great player but he's injury prone. Kobe is the best scorer in the game but he's a horrible leader and a horrible teammate ... and he's a very unwilling passer. Carmelo is probably the second best scorer in the league but he doesn't play defense, isn't a good passer and doesn't have many intangibles.

There are some horrible takes in this thread. LeBron has an off game so Spurs fans throw him under the bus :lol

If you gave GMs the option of picking any wing in the league, almost all of them would take LeBron.

Melo is a damn human turnstile.... He's one of the worst defenders in the NBA along with Steve Nash...... Bron may not be All-NBA, but he's sure as hell alot better than Melo.

Game 6 wasn't a poor performance just because he didn't put up 48 again. It's not even about that. It's about him finally realizing that 'hey, i'm lebron james... im supposed to be doing this shit'...... he finally gets that... the sky is the limit for him now. Trust me.... one day...... sports people will universally look back on that play (the dunk on sheed) and say that's when it all started. LeBron up until that exact point had only played like a shell of himself. If you had really been paying attention to him over the years, you would have seen that happen right before your eyes too.

but like I said, he has no chance in this series.

Timvp, take everything you just said, and think about just how much more applicable it is to D Wade. Injury prone? Becuase of one injury?

Wade is as good if not better as a passer than lebron.

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

Hell I wonder if Manu couldn't be a better player than LeBron if he was the star of his team

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:rolleyes

I like Manu as much as anybody but he's in a system now that maximizes all his skills. He plays next to Bowen so he rarely ever has to guard anyone of consequence one on one. He has Duncan in the post and Parker driving the lane to open the perimeter for him. He's in a free flowing offense that let's him drive whenever he wants. And when teams prepare for the Spurs, their first two priorities are figuring out a way to handle Tim and keep Parker out of the lane.

What you see now is Manu at his peak. In no other situation would he be better. Spurs fans like to pretend he's like a Michael Jordan who Pop is mean to so he only gets to play 30 minutes a game. That's all Manu can play and be able to keep his energy from game to game. And that's without having many defensive responsibilities or teams gearing their entire defense to stop him.

Manu is a great player but he's not LeBron and he's not a player that could go to his own team and be a 30 points, 7 rebound and 7 assist superstar.

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

Timvp, take everything you just said, and think about just how much more applicable it is to D Wade. Injury prone? Becuase of one injury?

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Uh, Wade has been hurt in three out of his four playoffs. He turned an ankle his rookie season, in '05 he got hurt in the ECF leading to the Heat not making the Finals and this year he had a hurt shoulder and when he got back, his knee flared up.

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

Wade is as good if not better as a passer than lebron.

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:lol

On what planet? Wade is a really good passer but he also has much better teammates. LeBron has a natural ability to pass the ball that you find once in a generation in a player his size.

On top of that, LeBron is three years younger, has much more potential that he can reach and has much better size.

Lebron >>>>>> Wade

any day of the week

Wade is great but is constantly got something wrong with him.

He also doesnt play well with injuries like an Allen Iverson.

Jesus Christ you Cleveland posters are a bunch of homers, there is no way you can call LeBron a better shooter than Wade.

Wade Field goal percentage's per year
03-04 .465
04-05 .478
05-06 .495
06-07 .491

Career playoffs shooting percentage= .479


Here's LeBron's shooting percentages
03-04 .417
04-05 .472
05-06 .480
06-07 .476

career playoff shooting percentage .449

^LeBron's also shot over 1,000 more 3's in his career than Wade. Which is gonna make a pretty good dent in any field goal % comparison

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Originally Posted by Dro210

^LeBron's also shot over 1,000 more 3's in his career than Wade. Which is gonna make a pretty good dent in any field goal % comparison

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If you look at true shooting percentage, Wade and LeBron are pretty much tied throughout their career.

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Originally Posted by Dro210

^LeBron's also shot over 1,000 more 3's in his career than Wade. Which is gonna make a pretty good dent in any field goal % comparison

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which just makes wade smarter considering he has never really trailed James much as far as PPG are concerned. How can you say a guy that scores the same amount points more efficiently as a less talented player?

Right now I still put Kobe ahead of LeBron, because while LeBron's a better "overall player" the clutch rating of Kobe gives him the edge.
I mean really....if it comes down to lebron jacking up a shot against the Spurs to beat us, I am not NEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRLLLLLLLLLL LLLLYYYY as nervous and jacked up as I am if Kobe takes that shot. Kobe has had more clutch shots in one season than LeBron has in his entire career. I know LeBron's younger than me, but he's still experienced already. He had one of the most amazing performances in the playoffs of all time, but if you can name one other player in this league who could do what he did, it would be Kobe. (Unless the team getting owned is the spurs, then maybe TMac coulda done it :lol)

Kobe scares me because he has a killer instinct I have never seen in a wing EVER.
Overall, Lebron owns him, but if you put kobe in a position to win an important game, I give him the edge over LeBron in that same position. So, imo, that puts Kobe ahead of LeBron. For now.

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Originally Posted by timvp

If you look at true shooting percentage, Wade and LeBron are pretty much tied throughout their career.

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I did the math real quick..... If you take away the 3pt numbers out of the FG percentages, and here's what you get for their careers....

Wade: .497
Bron: .493


Yea, Wade's so much of a better shooter!! lmao

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Originally Posted by Dro210

I did the math real quick..... If you take away the 3pt numbers out of the FG percentages, and here's what you get for their careers....

Wade: .497
Bron: .493


Yea, Wade's so much of a better shooter!! lmao

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Dude everyone on this thread has been saying Wade cant shoot. Did you take an argumentation class with Karl Rove or something?

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

which just makes wade smarter considering he has never really trailed James much as far as PPG are concerned. How can you say a guy that scores the same amount points more efficiently as a less talented player?

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Career PPG...

Wade: 23.8
Bron: 26.7

Wade's played about 60 less games (due to injury) that's why there's a descrepency in the amount of shots taken. As far as 3 pt. shots go... Wade doesn't take as many cause he can't make 'em. Simple as that. He shoots a horrible 25% for his career.


Where exactly are you trying to go with this?????

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Originally Posted by Cant_Be_Faded

Right now I still put Kobe ahead of LeBron, because while LeBron's a better "overall player" the clutch rating of Kobe gives him the edge.
I mean really....if it comes down to lebron jacking up a shot against the Spurs to beat us, I am not NEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRLLLLLLLLLL LLLLYYYY as nervous and jacked up as I am if Kobe takes that shot. Kobe has had more clutch shots in one season than LeBron has in his entire career. I know LeBron's younger than me, but he's still experienced already. He had one of the most amazing performances in the playoffs of all time, but if you can name one other player in this league who could do what he did, it would be Kobe. (Unless the team getting owned is the spurs, then maybe TMac coulda done it :lol)

Kobe scares me because he has a killer instinct I have never seen in a wing EVER.
Overall, Lebron owns him, but if you put kobe in a position to win an important game, I give him the edge over LeBron in that same position. So, imo, that puts Kobe ahead of LeBron. For now.

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Well, yeah if you have one fourth quarter or a couple possessions to win a game, Kobe might be the player to have at any position.

But Kobe is such a horrible teammate, leader and passer that he can't carry his team to situations that require being clutch anymore. Nowadays, Kobe clutch is against the Grizzlies in the regular season.

Without Shaq, all the flaws have been exposed in Kobe's game. Without a second superstar, Kobe probably can't even lead a team out of the first round anymore. Put LeBron on the Lakers with those teammates and Phil Jackson as coach, and the Lakers might would have beaten the Suns in the first round.

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

Dude everyone on this thread has been saying Wade cant shoot. Did you take an argumentation class with Karl Rove or something?

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What are you talkin about... I'm not arguing anything. I'm just stating facts.

and who said Wade can't shoot? He's deadly from 18 in

and wtf is Karl Rove?

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Originally Posted by timvp

Well, yeah if you have one fourth quarter or a couple possessions to win a game, Kobe might be the player to have at any position.

But Kobe is such a horrible teammate, leader and passer that he can't carry his team to situations that require being clutch anymore. Nowadays, Kobe clutch is against the Grizzlies in the regular season.

Without Shaq, all the flaws have been exposed in Kobe's game. Without a second superstar, Kobe probably can't even lead a team out of the first round anymore.

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Tru dat, and if this were a "who would you start a franchise with" thread I'd definetly pick James and agree with all of yall. But, to me, that Killer Instinct is just so damn cool I have to give Kobe the edge.

But it is a very slight edge.


Speaking of Kobe's passing....remember his no-look passes against the spurs? Ahhh memories :lmao

The discrepency in career points per game are from Wade's rookie season when he didnt get as many touches as LeBron. If you evaluate the two from their second seasons on you'll see almost no discrepency.

And wade's performances in the playoffs have been leaps and bounds above LeBron's playoff performances.

Even in 2005 when he was injured against the heat he had a pretty good series overall, and he hasnt been as poor of a shooter.

The best thing about wade is he doesnt stand with the ball for 14 seconds at the top of the key before settling for an offbalance jumper.

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

The best thing about wade is he doesnt stand with the ball for 14 seconds at the top of the key before settling for an offbalance jumper.

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Yeah because he has the most dominant bigman in the history of the NBA as a teammate. LeBron has Eric Snow.

I think the Lakers go farther with LeBron instead of the concierge rapist.

Wade has always had a good team.... LeBron still doesn't have a good team.

Or a coach that knows what to do with him (imo). That's why he's standing there for 14 seconds. I know this is an exaggeration, but when you watch the Cavs, it's like Mike Brown's game plan was "just go out there, play tough defense. And Bron, make something happen on offense, ok? ok... break!" Then everybody goes out there and is just watching LeBron. Not moving, hardly setting picks, just waiting like 4 Bruce Bowens for their open shot. Then when he passes it to 'em, that's it... it's like "oh shit, lebron passed me the ball, i better shoot it"... no extra passes, no getting it back to Bron... nothin.

That's gotta be hard to work with.

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Originally Posted by Dro210

Wade has always had a good team.... LeBron still doesn't have a good team.

Or a coach that knows what to do with him (imo).
That's gotta be hard to work with.

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I wonder how much of that is just player control. LeBron made the comment that as long as they played D, they would be allowed to do whatever they wanted on O. We see the results.

Can you imagine someone on the Spurs saying that? It seems our boys follow orders almost like military recruits, whereas the norm is coaches begging their players to play right. Maybe that's why it seems we can beat teams more talented than us consistently.

I think my detractors here are not understanding the point of this thread (TimVP Dro210)

Im not arguing that LeBron isnt going to change the game, that he doesnt have the potential to be better than Kobe or Wade. What I am saying is that LeBron is not better than either right now.

Say what you will, but there is no way LeBron wins the championship if he was on the heat last year and not wade, he doesnt rise to the occasion consistantly enough (wheras wade has been a dominant 30 ppg scorer when his team needs it whenever he has been out there, with LeBron you just know he could possibly be like that)

Im not ducks, i dont hate LeBron, im just oblivious. Until he actually preforms that way i dont think he deserves the credit he gets, not just on this forum but in the media.

The fact remains that at 22 kobe bryant was one hell of a better player in the playoffs than Lebron is now.

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

The fact remains that at 22 kobe bryant was one hell of a better player in the playoffs than Lebron is now.

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And he was playing with Shaq and much better teammates than LeBron has.

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

I think my detractors here are not understanding the point of this thread (TimVP Dro210)

Im not arguing that LeBron isnt going to change the game, that he doesnt have the potential to be better than Kobe or Wade. What I am saying is that LeBron is not better than either right now.

Say what you will, but there is no way LeBron wins the championship if he was on the heat last year and not wade, he doesnt rise to the occasion consistantly enough (wheras wade has been a dominant 30 ppg scorer when his team needs it whenever he has been out there, with LeBron you just know he could possibly be like that)

Im not ducks, i dont hate LeBron, im just oblivious. Until he actually preforms that way i dont think he deserves the credit he gets, not just on this forum but in the media.

The fact remains that at 22 kobe bryant was one hell of a better player in the playoffs than Lebron is now.

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Do you realize that everyone in your post that you're comparing LeBron to had Shaq on their team? Wade last year and Kobe at 22 had Shaq. That's a huuuuuuuuge part of the equation.

When defending against a team with Shaq, your first, second and third priorities are stopping Shaq from dunking. That's why literally every place Shaq has gone, a superstar shooting guard has emerged. Penny, Kobe and now Wade. Penny and Kobe were both exposed when Shaq left.

You are acting like you are comparing these guys in a vacuum when in fact it's a totally unfair comparison. Put Shaq on any team and a superstar will emerge just because of the fact that defenses have to focus all their efforts at stopping the man in the middle.

Kobe is a very good player, Wade is a very good player, Penny was a very good player. But none of the three are as good as Shaq made them look. None of those three can win a championship with a team built around them. LeBron is 4 wins away from doing that.

He was also playing tougher competition with higher expectations and more distractions. Kobe Bryant was facing down Bruce in 2001-02 and delivering the goods (maybe my math isnt great but wasnt he 23 that year?) when was the last time LeBron had that kind of defence to worry about?

Team success not withstanding, Kobe Bryant was playing much better ball by the same time in his career than LeBron is now, just because he had shaq on his team shouldnt discredit his better FT%, his better range, his more consistant shooting, and the fact that he played smarter, more consistant basketball.

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

He was also playing tougher competition with higher expectations and more distractions. Kobe Bryant was facing down Bruce in 2001-02 and delivering the goods (maybe my math isnt great but wasnt he 23 that year?) when was the last time LeBron had that kind of defence to worry about?

Team success not withstanding, Kobe Bryant was playing much better ball by the same time in his career than LeBron is now, just because he had shaq on his team shouldnt discredit his better FT%, his better range, his more consistant shooting, and the fact that he played smarter, more consistant basketball.

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Much smarter? LeBron has a higher basketball IQ than Kobe has ever had.

And you take Shaq off those teams and the Lakers don't even make the playoffs.

And Steve Smith had a better FT%, better range and was a more consistent shooter. Does that make him better than LeBron too?

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Originally Posted by timvp

Do you realize that everyone in your post that you're comparing LeBron to had Shaq on their team? Wade last year and Kobe at 22 had Shaq. That's a huuuuuuuuge part of the equation.

When defending against a team with Shaq, your first, second and third priorities are stopping Shaq from dunking. That's why literally every place Shaq has gone, a superstar shooting guard has emerged. Penny, Kobe and now Wade. Penny and Kobe were both exposed when Shaq left.

You are acting like you are comparing these guys in a vacuum when in fact it's a totally unfair comparison. Put Shaq on any team and a superstar will emerge just because of the fact that defenses have to focus all their efforts at stopping the man in the middle.

Kobe is a very good player, Wade is a very good player, Penny was a very good player. But none of the three are as good as Shaq made them look. None of those three can win a championship with a team built around them. LeBron is 4 wins away from doing that.

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Shaq in 2006 wasnt a very dominant player, wade got them where they went and shaq went along for the ride.

And you must have skimmed over my post timvp, all im saying is that right now, LeBron isnt the best wing player in the league

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Originally Posted by timvp

Much smarter? LeBron has a higher basketball IQ than Kobe has ever had.

And you take Shaq off those teams and the Lakers don't even make the playoffs.

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what? Kobe has had a worse supporting cast the past two season than he had in the championship years (newsflash LJ, they made the playoffs)

Let me know when Ilgauskas starts making movies, becomes deputized, and cuts a track with the Fu Schnickens or whatever.

let me know the last time shaq went 1 of 8 in a finals game like Big Z.

RobinsontoDuncan your so far off its not even funny, quit while your ahead.

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

Shaq in 2006 wasnt a very dominant player, wade got them where they went and shaq went along for the ride.

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You still had to make stopping 2006 Shaq your number 1 priority if you were another team. You don't stop Shaq and he was still dominant enough to beat you.

With that much energy and focus on one player, that leaves wings open to operate. From Penny, to Kobe and now Wade.

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

And you must have skimmed over my post timvp, all im saying is that right now, LeBron isnt the best wing player in the league

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I'm saying he is. What wing could you put on the Cavs in replace of LeBron and expect them to make the Finals? You put Kobe on the Cavs and he'd just go on every radio station in the country crying about how little talent he has in his supporting cast. Wade, if he wasn't injured, doesn't have the size or stamina to play the role LeBron is playing. Put Carmelo on the Cavs and they might have given the Celtics and Grizzlies a run for their money.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Much smarter? LeBron has a higher basketball IQ than Kobe has ever had.

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How do you come to that conclusion btw

Kobe has practically the same team as LeBron, and there is no way in hell you hold Kobe to less than 35 a game in the leastern conference playoffs

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

what? Kobe has had a worse supporting cast the past two season than he had in the championship years (newsflash LJ, they made the playoffs)

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No way. Those Lakers best players outside of Shaq and Kobe were Fisher, Horry and Fox. Odom by himself is better than those three.

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

How do you come to that conclusion btw

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By watching him play. He thinks and reacts to situations as well as an wing in the league.

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

Kobe has practically the same team as LeBron, and there is no way in hell you hold Kobe to less than 35 a game in the leastern conference playoffs

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Where is the Odom on the Cavs?

And the Lakers have this coach named Phil Jackson who might be something one day . :smokin

Odom is maddeningly inconsistant and he has been injured for how much of this season?

Ultimatly my argument will come down to this, you cannot stop Kobe from getting 30 points if he wants to score 30. Frankly, the same cant be said about LeBron.

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Originally Posted by timvp

By watching him play. He thinks and reacts to situations as well as an wing in the league.

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Is that the reason why he has been shooting .425 this playoffs and his 4th quarter decision making is so frequently questioned?

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

Odom is maddeningly inconsistant and he has been injured for how much of this season?

Ultimatly my argument will come down to this, you cannot stop Kobe from getting 30 points if he wants to score 30. Frankly, the same cant be said about LeBron.

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I've already said Kobe is the best scorer in the league. That's no contest.

But scoring and shooting aren't the only things to look at when coming up with the "best wing in the league". LeBron is the better rebounder, passer, gets more blocks and steals, is the better teammate, is the better leader, is more coachable and has more untapped potential.

And Odom is only inconsistent when he's playing with a guy who doesn't pass him the ball . . .

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

Is that the reason why he has been shooting .425 this playoffs and his 4th quarter decision making is so frequently questioned?

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What does basketball IQ have to do with shooting percentage?

And the decision making you are speaking of is when LeBron had the audacity to pass to an open teammate who could have won a game with a three. If Marshall hits that shot, everyone is celebrating LeBron's pass.

shooting percentage has everything to do with basketball IQ...it means you arent taking good shots. And there's more than that pass to donyell marshall that has been questioned, the fact that lebron loves to settle for jump shots instead of attacking the basket is pretty frequently sited as a cause for concern.

Rebounding and assists are great, but when your on a team that struggles to score points (lakers and cavs) and you have 14 points 7 assists and 7 rebounds you're not as valuble as a player that gets 30 points 5 assists and 5 rebounds

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

shooting percentage has everything to do with basketball IQ

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Horry has the highest basketball IQ on the Spurs and he shot 35% this season.

How is that explained?

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Originally Posted by timvp

Horry has the highest basketball IQ on the Spurs...

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Is there a formula for "basketball IQ" or is it a matter of personal interpertation?

Don't mean to interrupt the conversation, but I've always wanted to know.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Horry has the highest basketball IQ on the Spurs and he shot 35% this season.

How is that explained?

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Easily explained: Timvp is quick to hand out superlatives but slow on backing them up with analysis. Horry also knows his role, and that is primarily behind the 3 point line this year.

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

Easily explained: Timvp is quick to hand out superlatives but slow on backing them up with analysis. Horry also knows his role, and that is primarily behind the 3 point line this year.

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So Horry doesn't have a high basketball IQ?

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Originally Posted by duncan228

Is there a formula for "basketball IQ" or is it a matter of personal interpertation?

Don't mean to interrupt the conversation, but I've always wanted to know.

Thanks.

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No, there's no formula. You can't really quantify it with numbers. It's just an observation.

But almost everyone who has ever watched Horry play has agreed that he has off the charts basketball IQ.

Hmmm, who would be better at maximizing LeBron's talents: Phil Jackson or Mike Brown with offensive genius Hank Egan whispering in his ear? One wonders...

so while all of you focus on making excuses for why LeBron doesn't preform as well as Kobe or Wade im sitting here dumbfounded.


Ok so he has a bad coach, great. Does that change the fact that he doesn't preform as well as the other players i mentioned? No. Maybe he could, but he isn't.

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Originally Posted by timvp

:rolleyes

I like Manu as much as anybody but he's in a system now that maximizes all his skills. He plays next to Bowen so he rarely ever has to guard anyone of consequence one on one. He has Duncan in the post and Parker driving the lane to open the perimeter for him. He's in a free flowing offense that let's him drive whenever he wants. And when teams prepare for the Spurs, their first two priorities are figuring out a way to handle Tim and keep Parker out of the lane.

What you see now is Manu at his peak. In no other situation would he be better. Spurs fans like to pretend he's like a Michael Jordan who Pop is mean to so he only gets to play 30 minutes a game. That's all Manu can play and be able to keep his energy from game to game. And that's without having many defensive responsibilities or teams gearing their entire defense to stop him.

Manu is a great player but he's not LeBron and he's not a player that could go to his own team and be a 30 points, 7 rebound and 7 assist superstar.

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You are really downplaying the intangibles guys like Wade and Kobe have brought. Lebron took his team past the Wizards, Nets, and Pistons to the Finals. The highlight was obviously his play in Game 5 against the Pistons where he showed that when he wants to he is nearly unstoppable.

I have seen Wade do what Lebron did in Game 5 for 4 straight games in the NBA Finals. I have seen Kobe do what Lebron did in Game 5 for 3 straight years against your very Spurs team from 2000-2003.

Lebron is everything you said and more, there's no disputing that. However, Wade and Kobe play much better defense than Lebron and have proven over the course of an entire series at the biggest stage of the NBA that they can step up there game even more. Not saying Lebron won't do that, but let's wait until he does before we annoit him the best wing player.....

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Originally Posted by timvp

No, there's no formula. You can't really quantify it with numbers. It's just an observation.

But almost everyone who has ever watched Horry play has agreed that he has off the charts basketball IQ.

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Thanks for answering. I assumed it was observation, but on this board I learn all kinds of things I didn't know about basketball. I wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something.

I agree Horry is brilliant in his decisions on the court.
But I always thought Duncan's basketball IQ was "off the charts" the most on this team.

Just my Duncan favoritism showing? :spin Is Horry's better than Duncan's?

Also, Timvp: I love how you automatically annoit Lebron the better passer. I guess you missed those Lakers games towards the end of the season where Kobe was having 30, 9, and 6 games and the Lakers were still losing. Kobe is a very underrated passer, problem is his assist totals don't reflect it since he has Smush Parker, Odom, and Kwame Brown either fumbling his passes or missing their shots.

Also it's important to note, Kobe HAS to score 30+ points for his team to win....that's how bad the rest of that team is. Lebron doesn't have to...he had a horrendous Game 1 against the Spurs....yet the Cavs only lost by 9 and were down by 5 at halftime with Lebron scoring 0. If that were the Lakers and Kobe had 0 points at halftime.......how much do you think the Spurs would have been up by? My point being that it's easy for a great player to look even greater when he has halfway decent teammates. Lebron's teammates are highly underrated.

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Originally Posted by Testing

Also, Timvp: I love how you automatically annoit Lebron the better passer. I guess you missed those Lakers games towards the end of the season where Kobe was having 30, 9, and 6 games and the Lakers were still losing. Kobe is a very underrated passer, problem is his assist totals don't reflect it since he has Smush Parker, Odom, and Kwame Brown either fumbling his passes or missing their shots.

Also it's important to note, Kobe HAS to score 30+ points for his team to win....that's how bad the rest of that team is. Lebron doesn't have to...he had a horrendous Game 1 against the Spurs....yet the Cavs only lost by 9 and were down by 5 at halftime with Lebron scoring 0. If that were the Lakers and Kobe had 0 points at halftime.......how much do you think the Spurs would have been up by? My point being that it's easy for a great player to look even greater when he has halfway decent teammates. Lebron's teammates are highly underrated.

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Did his team win Game 1?

LeBron's teammates < Kobe's. Not even close.

oh and for all of you that take defense into consideration, there is no debate and "testing" is right, Kobe shits on LeBron as far as defense is concerned

Maybe Kobe shits on resort interns too.

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

shooting percentage has everything to do with basketball IQ

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lol... so by that calculation Mikey Moore is the most basketball smart player in the league right now..... (joking) :smokin

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Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

so while all of you focus on making excuses for why LeBron doesn't preform as well as Kobe or Wade im sitting here dumbfounded.


Ok so he has a bad coach, great. Does that change the fact that he doesn't preform as well as the other players i mentioned? No. Maybe he could, but he isn't.

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Those other players couldn't win a game against the Spurs either by themselves..... He's performed well against everybody else, he's done what he had to do to win. It's just over for him now. He's gonna be a monster next year tho.

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Originally Posted by Testing

Also it's important to note, Kobe HAS to score 30+ points for his team to win....that's how bad the rest of that team is. Lebron doesn't have to...he had a horrendous Game 1 against the Spurs....yet the Cavs only lost by 9 and were down by 5 at halftime with Lebron scoring 0. If that were the Lakers and Kobe had 0 points at halftime.......how much do you think the Spurs would have been up by? My point being that it's easy for a great player to look even greater when he has halfway decent teammates. Lebron's teammates are highly underrated.

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In general, that's because the Cavs are a pretty good defensive team, and they play at a slower pace..... Lakers would get blown out because we would score 100+ and they would score the same 76 the Cavs got. The Cavs defense keeps 'em in games.

in this game the Spurs didn't hit any outside shots

and the Spurs slacked off hard at the end of the game, allowing the lead to get down to the 9 that makes so many people seem to think was a 'close game'

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Originally Posted by Thunder Dan

The thing that is different with Lebron when it compares to Melo and Wade is that Lebron's team is trash other than him. Dwayne Wade has Shaq who draws a double alot. Shit, Damon Jones looked like an All-Star with Shaq, now he sees anywhere from 1 second to 2 minutes playing time a game. So if you hold all else equal Lebron should be up in those 3, not saying he is the best, but saying that your not looking at the whole picture. You get no argument from me as Kobe being 1, but remember Kobe wasn't that great his first couple years in the NBA, and Lebron IS 22, probably younger than you.

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so let me get this straight ? - Damon Jones looked like an All-star with Wade and Shaq but with Lebron he cannot even get on the court? Do you somehow think that validates Lebron's greatness? To me it is the exact opposite. Damon Jones -- Larry Hughes - both of them far worse off as Cavs...Lebron has not done anything to benefit either one of them