Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

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06-09-2007
RobinsontoDuncan

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by timvp

Much smarter? LeBron has a higher basketball IQ than Kobe has ever had.

How do you come to that conclusion btw
06-09-2007
RobinsontoDuncan

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Kobe has practically the same team as LeBron, and there is no way in hell you hold Kobe to less than 35 a game in the leastern conference playoffs
06-09-2007
timvp

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

what? Kobe has had a worse supporting cast the past two season than he had in the championship years (newsflash LJ, they made the playoffs)

No way. Those Lakers best players outside of Shaq and Kobe were Fisher, Horry and Fox. Odom by himself is better than those three.
06-09-2007
timvp

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

How do you come to that conclusion btw

By watching him play. He thinks and reacts to situations as well as an wing in the league.
06-09-2007
timvp

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

Kobe has practically the same team as LeBron, and there is no way in hell you hold Kobe to less than 35 a game in the leastern conference playoffs

Where is the Odom on the Cavs?

And the Lakers have this coach named Phil Jackson who might be something one day . :smokin
06-09-2007
RobinsontoDuncan

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Odom is maddeningly inconsistant and he has been injured for how much of this season?

Ultimatly my argument will come down to this, you cannot stop Kobe from getting 30 points if he wants to score 30. Frankly, the same cant be said about LeBron.
06-09-2007
RobinsontoDuncan

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by timvp

By watching him play. He thinks and reacts to situations as well as an wing in the league.

Is that the reason why he has been shooting .425 this playoffs and his 4th quarter decision making is so frequently questioned?
06-09-2007
timvp

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

Odom is maddeningly inconsistant and he has been injured for how much of this season?

Ultimatly my argument will come down to this, you cannot stop Kobe from getting 30 points if he wants to score 30. Frankly, the same cant be said about LeBron.

I've already said Kobe is the best scorer in the league. That's no contest.

But scoring and shooting aren't the only things to look at when coming up with the "best wing in the league". LeBron is the better rebounder, passer, gets more blocks and steals, is the better teammate, is the better leader, is more coachable and has more untapped potential.

And Odom is only inconsistent when he's playing with a guy who doesn't pass him the ball . . .
06-09-2007
timvp

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

Is that the reason why he has been shooting .425 this playoffs and his 4th quarter decision making is so frequently questioned?

What does basketball IQ have to do with shooting percentage?

And the decision making you are speaking of is when LeBron had the audacity to pass to an open teammate who could have won a game with a three. If Marshall hits that shot, everyone is celebrating LeBron's pass.
06-09-2007
RobinsontoDuncan

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

shooting percentage has everything to do with basketball IQ...it means you arent taking good shots. And there's more than that pass to donyell marshall that has been questioned, the fact that lebron loves to settle for jump shots instead of attacking the basket is pretty frequently sited as a cause for concern.

Rebounding and assists are great, but when your on a team that struggles to score points (lakers and cavs) and you have 14 points 7 assists and 7 rebounds you're not as valuble as a player that gets 30 points 5 assists and 5 rebounds
06-09-2007
timvp

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

shooting percentage has everything to do with basketball IQ

Horry has the highest basketball IQ on the Spurs and he shot 35% this season.

How is that explained?
06-09-2007
duncan228

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by timvp

Horry has the highest basketball IQ on the Spurs...

Is there a formula for "basketball IQ" or is it a matter of personal interpertation?

Don't mean to interrupt the conversation, but I've always wanted to know.

Thanks.
06-09-2007
RobinsontoDuncan

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by timvp

Horry has the highest basketball IQ on the Spurs and he shot 35% this season.

How is that explained?

Easily explained: Timvp is quick to hand out superlatives but slow on backing them up with analysis. Horry also knows his role, and that is primarily behind the 3 point line this year.
06-09-2007
timvp

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

Easily explained: Timvp is quick to hand out superlatives but slow on backing them up with analysis. Horry also knows his role, and that is primarily behind the 3 point line this year.

So Horry doesn't have a high basketball IQ?
06-09-2007
timvp

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncan228

Is there a formula for "basketball IQ" or is it a matter of personal interpertation?

Don't mean to interrupt the conversation, but I've always wanted to know.

Thanks.

No, there's no formula. You can't really quantify it with numbers. It's just an observation.

But almost everyone who has ever watched Horry play has agreed that he has off the charts basketball IQ.
06-09-2007
Marcus Bryant

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Hmmm, who would be better at maximizing LeBron's talents: Phil Jackson or Mike Brown with offensive genius Hank Egan whispering in his ear? One wonders...
06-09-2007
RobinsontoDuncan

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

so while all of you focus on making excuses for why LeBron doesn't preform as well as Kobe or Wade im sitting here dumbfounded.

Ok so he has a bad coach, great. Does that change the fact that he doesn't preform as well as the other players i mentioned? No. Maybe he could, but he isn't.
06-09-2007
Testing

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by timvp

:rolleyes

I like Manu as much as anybody but he's in a system now that maximizes all his skills. He plays next to Bowen so he rarely ever has to guard anyone of consequence one on one. He has Duncan in the post and Parker driving the lane to open the perimeter for him. He's in a free flowing offense that let's him drive whenever he wants. And when teams prepare for the Spurs, their first two priorities are figuring out a way to handle Tim and keep Parker out of the lane.

What you see now is Manu at his peak. In no other situation would he be better. Spurs fans like to pretend he's like a Michael Jordan who Pop is mean to so he only gets to play 30 minutes a game. That's all Manu can play and be able to keep his energy from game to game. And that's without having many defensive responsibilities or teams gearing their entire defense to stop him.

Manu is a great player but he's not LeBron and he's not a player that could go to his own team and be a 30 points, 7 rebound and 7 assist superstar.

You are really downplaying the intangibles guys like Wade and Kobe have brought. Lebron took his team past the Wizards, Nets, and Pistons to the Finals. The highlight was obviously his play in Game 5 against the Pistons where he showed that when he wants to he is nearly unstoppable.

I have seen Wade do what Lebron did in Game 5 for 4 straight games in the NBA Finals. I have seen Kobe do what Lebron did in Game 5 for 3 straight years against your very Spurs team from 2000-2003.

Lebron is everything you said and more, there's no disputing that. However, Wade and Kobe play much better defense than Lebron and have proven over the course of an entire series at the biggest stage of the NBA that they can step up there game even more. Not saying Lebron won't do that, but let's wait until he does before we annoit him the best wing player.....
06-09-2007
duncan228

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by timvp

No, there's no formula. You can't really quantify it with numbers. It's just an observation.

But almost everyone who has ever watched Horry play has agreed that he has off the charts basketball IQ.

Thanks for answering. I assumed it was observation, but on this board I learn all kinds of things I didn't know about basketball. I wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something.

I agree Horry is brilliant in his decisions on the court.
But I always thought Duncan's basketball IQ was "off the charts" the most on this team.

Just my Duncan favoritism showing? :spin Is Horry's better than Duncan's?
06-09-2007
Testing

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Also, Timvp: I love how you automatically annoit Lebron the better passer. I guess you missed those Lakers games towards the end of the season where Kobe was having 30, 9, and 6 games and the Lakers were still losing. Kobe is a very underrated passer, problem is his assist totals don't reflect it since he has Smush Parker, Odom, and Kwame Brown either fumbling his passes or missing their shots.

Also it's important to note, Kobe HAS to score 30+ points for his team to win....that's how bad the rest of that team is. Lebron doesn't have to...he had a horrendous Game 1 against the Spurs....yet the Cavs only lost by 9 and were down by 5 at halftime with Lebron scoring 0. If that were the Lakers and Kobe had 0 points at halftime.......how much do you think the Spurs would have been up by? My point being that it's easy for a great player to look even greater when he has halfway decent teammates. Lebron's teammates are highly underrated.
06-09-2007
Marcus Bryant

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Testing

Also, Timvp: I love how you automatically annoit Lebron the better passer. I guess you missed those Lakers games towards the end of the season where Kobe was having 30, 9, and 6 games and the Lakers were still losing. Kobe is a very underrated passer, problem is his assist totals don't reflect it since he has Smush Parker, Odom, and Kwame Brown either fumbling his passes or missing their shots.

Also it's important to note, Kobe HAS to score 30+ points for his team to win....that's how bad the rest of that team is. Lebron doesn't have to...he had a horrendous Game 1 against the Spurs....yet the Cavs only lost by 9 and were down by 5 at halftime with Lebron scoring 0. If that were the Lakers and Kobe had 0 points at halftime.......how much do you think the Spurs would have been up by? My point being that it's easy for a great player to look even greater when he has halfway decent teammates. Lebron's teammates are highly underrated.

Did his team win Game 1?

LeBron's teammates < Kobe's. Not even close.
06-09-2007
RobinsontoDuncan

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

oh and for all of you that take defense into consideration, there is no debate and "testing" is right, Kobe shits on LeBron as far as defense is concerned
06-09-2007
Marcus Bryant

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Maybe Kobe shits on resort interns too.
06-09-2007
Dro210

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

shooting percentage has everything to do with basketball IQ

lol... so by that calculation Mikey Moore is the most basketball smart player in the league right now..... (joking) :smokin

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobinsontoDuncan

so while all of you focus on making excuses for why LeBron doesn't preform as well as Kobe or Wade im sitting here dumbfounded.

Ok so he has a bad coach, great. Does that change the fact that he doesn't preform as well as the other players i mentioned? No. Maybe he could, but he isn't.

Those other players couldn't win a game against the Spurs either by themselves..... He's performed well against everybody else, he's done what he had to do to win. It's just over for him now. He's gonna be a monster next year tho.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Testing

Also it's important to note, Kobe HAS to score 30+ points for his team to win....that's how bad the rest of that team is. Lebron doesn't have to...he had a horrendous Game 1 against the Spurs....yet the Cavs only lost by 9 and were down by 5 at halftime with Lebron scoring 0. If that were the Lakers and Kobe had 0 points at halftime.......how much do you think the Spurs would have been up by? My point being that it's easy for a great player to look even greater when he has halfway decent teammates. Lebron's teammates are highly underrated.

In general, that's because the Cavs are a pretty good defensive team, and they play at a slower pace..... Lakers would get blown out because we would score 100+ and they would score the same 76 the Cavs got. The Cavs defense keeps 'em in games.

in this game the Spurs didn't hit any outside shots

and the Spurs slacked off hard at the end of the game, allowing the lead to get down to the 9 that makes so many people seem to think was a 'close game'
06-09-2007
implacable44

Re: Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder Dan

The thing that is different with Lebron when it compares to Melo and Wade is that Lebron's team is trash other than him. Dwayne Wade has Shaq who draws a double alot. Shit, Damon Jones looked like an All-Star with Shaq, now he sees anywhere from 1 second to 2 minutes playing time a game. So if you hold all else equal Lebron should be up in those 3, not saying he is the best, but saying that your not looking at the whole picture. You get no argument from me as Kobe being 1, but remember Kobe wasn't that great his first couple years in the NBA, and Lebron IS 22, probably younger than you.

so let me get this straight ? - Damon Jones looked like an All-star with Wade and Shaq but with Lebron he cannot even get on the court? Do you somehow think that validates Lebron's greatness? To me it is the exact opposite. Damon Jones -- Larry Hughes - both of them far worse off as Cavs...Lebron has not done anything to benefit either one of them

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