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Also, let's not forget that Brent also had an incredible out of bounds save in the 4th (after Timmy was clobbered) that led to Tony's layup (the one where he traveled; the one that 'stopped the bleeding').
I agree, Brent needs to step up his game. But he is not the reason we collapsed in the 4th.
In this case, the plus minus numbers don't lie. Elson was so abysmal in the fourth quarter, I'm not sure how stays in after the first time out. He had a turnover and three defensive lapses early that led to eight points, and he twice made Verajao look like Hakeem, left Marshall open for yet another three and he committed a stupid foul against Lebron. Elson played a big part in an 89-60 lead becoming a 95-84 lead. In his defense, he did score two of the six points the Spurs had in that stretch. He was personally responsible for
Barry took a three with 22 on the shot clock and another with 20 on the shot clock, both after offensive rebounds. I've long said that he should shoot when he's open, but if he can't recognize the situation of the game well enough to know that those are bad shots, his ass needs to be kept out of the rotation. I can forgive his airball because it was a hurried shot with two seconds on the clock.
Vaughn was a significant part of the fourth quarter collpase. He was dribbling without purpose. He gets a D for the second half.
dude comeon, open your eyes. Parker gotta get an A+
he's the #1 running for MVP
Wrong. Vaughn played really solid and scored two of the six points the Spurs had. The last ten points of that run were scored with Parker on the floor.Quote:
Originally Posted by picnroll
Pop was a fucking moron for putting in the shittiest line-ups that couldn't play any defense...ultimately leading to the Cavs dominating the Spurs in that 4th quarter.
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Originally Posted by ALVAREZ6
Or was he...
appropriate fear. I'd much rather Spurs head to Cleveland after almost blowing a lead, then heading to Cleveland overconfident like vs. the Pistons in 2005.
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Originally Posted by MadDog73
Good point.... Maybe his most genius 'move' thusfar.
To be fair, Elson was having to cover for Vaughn and Oberto getting burned by their men on the perimeter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
As to making Varejao 'look like Hakeem', come on. Those were two of the ugliest shots I've seen in a long time, and if Varejao is going to hit those then you take your hat off to him, because he normally can't hit those types of shots.
That collapse in the fourth was mainly fueled by a combination of the crap lineup on the court, only running plays in that crap lineup for Vaughn, Bowen, and Oberto jump shots, and Barry taking three straight three points with a ton of time on the shot clock (including two of them after offensive rebounds where there was more than 20 seconds on the shot clock).
With all due respect, you are completely wrong. One of Jones' threes was because Elson was way out of position and Vaughn was covering Verajao in the paint (and blocked out really well). Elson routinely chased the ball around the perimeter, completely losing track of his man. Seriously, he looked like my border collie when someone throws a tennis ball. I watched the fourth quarter before making that post, and Elson was directly responsible for at least three of the wide open three pointers, and two of the layups. I absolutely do not understand how Pop left him in the game until he fouled Lebron under the basket ten points later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan
First of all, Elson gave him about 8 feet and let him face up. He then bit on a terrible fake and jumped late for one basket and then just kind of fell down trying to draw a charge and allowed him another easy basket. If Verajao is going to miss shots like that he has no business being in the league. They were not high degree of difficulty shots by any stretch of the imagination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan
There were no plays run for those guys, they were bad decisions to shoot on the part of the players because the offense was grinding to a halt. Vaughn did a good job of keeping the ball moving and hitting his teammates while they were open, and he hit his one jumper in rhythm. Manu and Barry were the primary decision makers during that stretch and they were both terrible, each taking quick shots and holding the ball too long. Bowen tried to create his own shots off the dribble and Oberto decided to shoot from 18 feet out. The Spurs were already celebrating the victory and made poor decisions on offense while Elson did his damage on the defensive end. It's no surprise Pop put Duncan in and called four down. Duncan got a bunch of good looks but he just couldn't get them to fall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan
Pop should have put the starters back in after the first Cav run took it down to 19 points. This is the fucking playoff for the Championship. Put your foot on their neck and don't let them up.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildbill2u
Fuck that, we gotta send a message...all the casual dumbfucks will be saying "oh but the Cavs almost came back, twice!"... blah blah blah.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadDog73
I'm pretty confident, actually 100% confident, that the Spurs will win this series and be 2007 Champions. Cleveland's not coming back.
Ohhh...The Humanity... :dramaquee
Manu and Bowen were in for the first part of it, Duncan (who came back in at 19) and Parker and Bowen were in for the second part of it. The Spurs were playing pretty gutless on both ends and Duncan rimmed out at least three shots. Everyone lost focus and the Cavs took advantage of it. Pop can use this to beat on everybody until Tuesday and the Cavs are going to get it handed to them again and Pop's not likely to reward anyone with rest in the fourth quarter this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildbill2u
I can assure you, if the Spurs have a 50-point lead in the closeout game, the starters will play until the Cavs wave the white flag. This was a game 2 mistake that won't happen again. Knock'em down, keep'em down.
No, it's not like I ever thought we were going to lose. I'm not TPark freaking out or anything like that, I just don't think anybody besides the big three and Horry played particularly well, even grading on the curve.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
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Originally Posted by hater
LJ never wrote it, but I think the reason for Tony being dropped to an A- was his defense... offensively he was pretty damn good, so LJ had to drop the grade for something.
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Originally Posted by timvp
Since when does Pop care about the shot clock? Sorry, I know Brent played poorly in that second half, but I agree with this poster. Pop goes on and on about Finley being benched if he DOESN'T shoot, and I think Brent gets the same standard.
I think the only guys on this team that can get in trouble shooting early on the clock are Tony and Manu, because it would mean they didn't make any kind of pass at all or initiate the offense, but if Fin or Brent shoot early, it means we got into the offense early and a couple of passes were still made.
That's ridiculous. You don't jack up a three with 22 seconds on the clock immediately after an offensive rebound when you are trying to keep a lead. Barry was on cleanup duty; he's not a starter anymore so being aware of the situation is paramount. He was in the game with Vaughn in Manu's role, as the guy who initiates the offense. He didn't get those passes on kickouts, he got them from guys on the perimeter and he just threw it up there rather than trying to let the offense develop. Maybe you don't know enough not to do that twice, but Brent Barry damn well should. There's no problem letting him shoot during the quarter to try to get his shooting touch back, but those weren't in the flow of the offense, and they certainly weren't good shots, particularly given the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
They were wide open threes OV... since when do we not want Brent to shoot wide open threes? I think the only reason people are upset is because the shots missed, but the ones he missed were just as open as the one he made.
It's like in baseball, you want to work the pitcher and make him throw a lot and tire him out, but you know he's only going to give you one meatball per at bat, so if you happen to get that meatball in the first pitch, you have to swing at it, right?
I'm not sure what Elson others have been watching this playoffs, but this is how he plays defense. He's usually out of position, slow to react, etc. It just becomes more pronounced when there are shooters on the court that he has to rotate to.
Elson has played well defensively approximately 1.5 games this playoffs. Last night was about par for the playoffs for him defensively. Add to that the fact that he was the team's leading scorer outside of the Big Three and this had to be considered an above average game from him.
Jacque Vaughn was a +9 coming into the fourth quarter. That's ungodly for Vaughn. And in the fourth, I don't see how it was much his fault. For the first two minutes of the quarter, Pop had a lineup in with no scorers other than Manu -- and Manu wasn't trying to score. That led to a -8 in the first two minutes. Vaughn stayed on for another two minutes when Duncan came in and he was +0 in that time.
So yeah, Vaughn being a +9 for the whole time he's on the court outside of a two minute stretch is a good game from Vaughn.
Obstructed is right in regards to Barry. The Spurs were up 19 with eight minutes to go and Barry took two three-pointers in a span of five seconds. Pop wants Barry to shoot when open, but he has to be aware of the time and score. And it's not like Barry has been automatic in these playoffs.
Especially with Duncan on the court, you pull that out and get a good shot. You get a bucket there to push the game back into the 20's and you can break the Cavs' spirit. Instead Barry takes two threes, the first with 14 on the shot clock, the second with 20 on the shot clock.
We want Barry to shoot when he gets the ball on kickouts within the flow of the game when he's in the game as a shooter. We do NOT want him to shoot when he's in the game as the guy initiating the offense and there's 22 seconds on the shot clock after an offensive rebound and the Spurs are trying to hold a lead. Why is this so hard for you to understand? The Spurs didn't need three points, they needed to burn some clock and get their offense going again to try to stop the momentum of a good young team on a run. Jacking up a jumper without even burning any clock doesn't do ANY of those things. It's like saying that Chris Webber was right to call time out because you are supposed to call time out in that situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
No if the shot had gone in he'd have just been running up the score. The Spurs should have at least been burning clock to slow down the pace of the game and calm down the run. He didn't. It was stupid basketball, and he probably won't get any minutes in game three as a result unless Finley is abysmal again.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
In that scenario, Barry stepped out of the batter's box and got called out without taking a single pitch. Twice.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
Elson played very bad in the 4th quarter. He didnīt his work. Instead of helping, he has made things worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
I disagree whit timvp. Elson deservers C+.