Tony Parker

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

Yeah you are right. Like in the 2006 playoffs when Devin averaged 14 ppg and Parker could barely walk and averaged 20 ppg?

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I was talking more recently, and in any case, I don't think TP played that well in that 2006 series becuase if it wasn't for DUncan, Mavs would have beaten us in 5 or 6 games as I recall.

Anyway the point is, guys like Nash or Kidd or Billups still run their team more effectively and take what the defence will give them whereas TP has a tendency to try to force his will (penetration) and if that doesn't work (usually against teams with tough/fast PG or shot blockers like Diop or Kirelenko,etc.), TP would dissappear. He is more effective now but he still doesn't really know how to shred the defence like Nash can, whether it is by jump shooting (and there is simply no way you can compare TP with Nash when it comes to dead-eye shooting that Nash is capable of) when they are laying off him or by slick passes to give easy dunks or wide-open 3's.

But I fully grant you that he is playing even better this year than last year so I am happy with TP's play so far even if i have been very critical of him in past years. For few minute stretch yesterday when SPurs had DUncan, TP and Manu running around, zipping sharp passes to each other for wide-open jumpers or dunks, it was truely beautiful to watch the big 3 shred the Sonics defence!

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Originally Posted by Me

Parker could barely walk and averaged 20 ppg?

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Originally Posted by You

I don't think TP played that well in that 2006 series

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I'm not going to argue with you because, as history has shown, you hate Parker. So there's nothing to discuss.

Have a good day though.

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

I'm not going to argue with you because, as history has shown, you hate Parker. So there's nothing to discuss.

Have a good day though.

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I am trying not to "hate" him (and I really don't even if you don't believe me -- i am just a die-hard Spurs fan who knows he can play smarter and have been frustrated in the past when he used to dissappear in critical games/situations) and it is getting easier every year!

Let's hope he can keep improving because he is already one of the better guards in the league and for Spurs to finally have a real elite guard who is capable of beating any team any which way would be amazing considering all these years we've won the ring without a dominant PG.

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Originally Posted by telecomguy

I am trying not to "hate" him (and I really don't even if you don't believe me -- i am just a die-hard Spurs fan who knows he can play smarter and have been frustrated in the past when he used to dissappear in critical games/situations) and it is getting easier every year!

Let's hope he can keep improving because he is already one of the better guards in the league and for Spurs to finally have a real elite guard who is capable of beating any team any which way would be amazing considering all these years we've won the ring without a dominant PG.

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where you as critical on nash,kidd and gp when they first came in teh nba?

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Originally Posted by ducks

where you as critical on nash,kidd and gp when they first came in teh nba?

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that is a valid point Ducks....but i believe Kidd and GP were playing at a very high level fairly early on in their career (correct me if i am wrong on this).

As for Nash, he didn't get as much playing time because in the beginning of his career, he was playing behind Kidd. TP was thrown into the starting line up very early on, hence his development has been accelerated.....and also Nash is an anomaly because he developed so late into such a good player although he always had the potential I believe. The problem was that his talents (ball distribution, floor generalship, passing, quaterbacking etc.) are subtle type of talent that is not easily recognizable.

anyway as i keep saying, TP is frustrating me less and less and this year is playing really well even if his jumper seems to have regressed. At least he is not losing the ball and is making some really good passes to other players, especially now that teams are running players at him whenever he starts to make his move into the paint. I think he can really milk this and do the penetrate-dish or pick'n roll with Duncan much more often. His scoring might go down but his assist total should explode.

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Originally Posted by telecomguy

I don't think Parker can get to the rack at will and score. If you recall any matchups between TP and Devin Harris or Deron Williams, both Devin and Deron ouplayed TP by a wide-margin. TP has improved a great deal in the past few years. His turnover to assist ration in particular, and also he doen't just go barging into the paint into the arms of 3 bigs anymore without a plan or an outlet passing lane available so his basketball IQ has certainly improved. And his confidence level has increased to the point that he doesn't dissappear from the entire game if he gets off to a bad start (like yesterday) and is also more clutch at the end of tight games.

TP still doesnt really run the floor as well as a traditional PG (maybe because he isn't one and probably will never be one?) and so when his penetration or jumpers are failing him, Spurs offense tends to break down to isolating DUncan or Manu or forcing Barry or Finley to take tough contested jumpers.

Having said all that TP is improving slowly but surely and I certainly can't question his heart or fearlessness. Is he in top tier PG? No, not yet but he is definitely in the top of the second tier in my opinion. Once he starts to show that he can compete against top defensive teams when they deny him the paint/lanes, that is when I know he has truely become an elite player.

Manu by the way is playing incredible basketball right now. No questions asked that he is the best Spurs player in the first 13 games although DUncan is starting to come around to his usual dominant self. If we have these 3 clicking come playoff time, I don't care who we face, we should be able to repeat!

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Guys like Deron and Paul get high assist numbers b/c they have a PF and in Utah's case, a PF and a center that can hit shots consistantly from 18ft (Boozer and West) and beyond (Okur). I hate it when posters judge his effectiveness b/c his assist totals. Nash would never avg. more than around 7apg in the Spurs offense. And Deron ppg avg. went up against the Spurs, who like Dallas, have trouble with larger PGs (Billups-Baron). Deron was not scoring 25-30 on other teams check the stats! Tony sets the tempo of the game from the tip-off, which is what a REAL PG is supposed to do! Do you really think a coach like Pop would have Tony on the court as much as he does if he was not running the team properly? And YOU may not think Tony can get to the rim at will, but Tim Duncan during this past finals said it best when he stated that teams MAIN priority on defense is to stop Tony's penetration into the lane, but regardless of what they do, he gets there anyway!

By the way, Deron couldn't gaurd Parker AT ALL during the WCF. I can appreciate his willingness to try, but his D on Parker was horrible and detrimental to their chances of winning. At least Pop knows better and puts Bruce on larger PGs like Deron and Billups. If you noticed, Deron didn't get this big hype he's been receiving until AFTER that series! Before then he was a good point guard w/ lots of potential.

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Originally Posted by telecomguy

I was talking more recently, and in any case, I don't think TP played that well in that 2006 series becuase if it wasn't for DUncan, Mavs would have beaten us in 5 or 6 games as I recall.

Anyway the point is, guys like Nash or Kidd or Billups still run their team more effectively and take what the defence will give them whereas TP has a tendency to try to force his will (penetration) and if that doesn't work (usually against teams with tough/fast PG or shot blockers like Diop or Kirelenko,etc.), TP would dissappear. He is more effective now but he still doesn't really know how to shred the defence like Nash can, whether it is by jump shooting (and there is simply no way you can compare TP with Nash when it comes to dead-eye shooting that Nash is capable of) when they are laying off him or by slick passes to give easy dunks or wide-open 3's.

But I fully grant you that he is playing even better this year than last year so I am happy with TP's play so far even if i have been very critical of him in past years. For few minute stretch yesterday when SPurs had DUncan, TP and Manu running around, zipping sharp passes to each other for wide-open jumpers or dunks, it was truely beautiful to watch the big 3 shred the Sonics defence!

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And in this entire spiel of a post, not once do you mention Parker's defense. Nice. Because we all know truly great PGs don't need to play defense. :rolleyes

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Originally Posted by RC's Boss

Guys like Deron and Paul get high assist numbers b/c they have a PF and in Utah's case, a PF and a center that can hit shots consistantly from 18ft (Boozer and West) and beyond (Okur). I hate it when posters judge his effectiveness b/c his assist totals. Nash would never avg. more than around 7apg in the Spurs offense. And Deron ppg avg. went up against the Spurs, who like Dallas, have trouble with larger PGs (Billups-Baron). Deron was not scoring 25-30 on other teams check the stats! Tony sets the tempo of the game from the tip-off, which is what a REAL PG is supposed to do! Do you really think a coach like Pop would have Tony on the court as much as he does if he was not running the team properly? And YOU may not think Tony can get to the rim at will, but Tim Duncan during this past finals said it best when he stated that teams MAIN priority on defense is to stop Tony's penetration into the lane, but regardless of what they do, he gets there anyway!

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are you saying TP get to the lane at will against the Mavs and Jazz?

Last year Cavs were severely undermanned as they had Boobie Gibson the rookie defending TP.

Let's get real. TP can penetrate against most teams.....i will grant you that but against tough defensive teams in the playoffs (D.HArris/Mavs, Deron Williams/Jazz, Billups/Pistons, etc.) you cannot tell me with a straight face that Tony is going to take over the game and go for layups after layups.

If you do, then you've clearly forgotten the Detroit series, 2006 Mavs series, and the recent game against Mavs earlier this month.

Teams can shut down TP in the lane by clogging it up with bigs, shotblockers and a fast or physically strong PG.

I don't think it's wise to assume TP can just go to the rack time after time against quality opponents..........which is why he is working so hard on his jumpers and even moving the ball around by passing and pick 'n rolls.

TP, despite your claims is no Michael Jordan even if Sequespur seems to believe that.


But TP is more than good enough to allow Spurs to repeat and win more championships,....but let's not build him up to be what he is not. A superstar or an elite top 5 PG....at least not yet.

Just one guy's opinion but here are his top 5 point guards, this is from 2006-2007 season:

1) Tony Parker:Just for the same reason Nash is number 2, Tony Parker is number 1, rings. Im sorry i had to do it but its all about how a point guard plays under pressure and i think 3 NBA rings and a championship MVP is pretty clutch. He may not put up the best numbers in the regular season but everyone can agree its not about the regular season. He just shows up in the playoffs with a vengeance. Just so fast and so calm, after this NBA championship he solidified his spot at number one for me.

Top 5 Point Guards

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

And in this entire spiel of a post, not once do you mention Parker's defense. Nice. Because we all know truly great PGs don't need to play defense. :rolleyes

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Sorry this is from 02-03 but the point is that Tony has clearly gotten better on the defensive end and he has an impact.


3) Defensive Impact: Effective FG% Allowed
NBA '02-03 Roland Ratings
Player

Team

On Court

Off Court

Net
Parker
SAS 44.5% 47.5% -3.0%
Crawford
CHI
46.2% 47.7% -1.5%
Francis
HOU
46.0% 46.9% -0.9%
Terry
ATL
46.7% 47.4% -0.8%
Delk
BOS
46.6% 47.4% -0.7%
Davis
NOH
46.1% 46.7% -0.5%
Fisher
LAL
47.6% 47.9% -0.3%
Armstrong
ORL
48.5% 48.8% -0.3%
Harrington
DEN
47.6% 47.8% -0.2%
Palacio
CLE
48.3% 48.5% -0.1%

Offense being only half the game, we better take a look at the defensive side of the ball. As the point guards who push the ball will likely improve total scoring for both sides, the eFG% number is a better measure. Here we find Tony Parker as the top PG by a huge margin, ironic in light of the Spurs going all out to get Kidd.

Mostly you find that the top point guards don't seem to shave off much eFG% for the other side. On offense the #10 player was +2.1%, here on defense it's a mere -0.1%!


NBA Point Guard Ratings

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Originally Posted by telecomguy

are you saying TP get to the lane at will against the Mavs and Jazz?

Last year Cavs were severely undermanned as they had Boobie Gibson the rookie defending TP.

Let's get real. TP can penetrate against most teams.....i will grant you that but against tough defensive teams in the playoffs (D.HArris/Mavs, Deron Williams/Jazz, Billups/Pistons, etc.) you cannot tell me with a straight face that Tony is going to take over the game and go for layups after layups.

If you do, then you've clearly forgotten the Detroit series, 2006 Mavs series, and the recent game against Mavs earlier this month.

Teams can shut down TP in the lane by clogging it up with bigs, shotblockers and a fast or physically strong PG.

I don't think it's wise to assume TP can just go to the rack time after time against quality opponents..........which is why he is working so hard on his jumpers and even moving the ball around by passing and pick 'n rolls.

TP, despite your claims is no Michael Jordan even if Sequespur seems to believe that.


But TP is more than good enough to allow Spurs to repeat and win more championships,....but let's not build him up to be what he is not. A superstar or an elite top 5 PG....at least not yet.

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NO ONE can get in the lane if it's clogged w/ bigs :rolleyes If he's been an all-star the past 2 years and more than likely this year... and Finals MVP, what the fuck would you call elite???????? What PG doesn't work on their jumpers if it's a weakness? Tony's been running pick -n- rolls for years now. You just proved this debate is useless :rolleyes

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Originally Posted by telecomguy

I don't think Parker can get to the rack at will and score. If you recall any matchups between TP and Devin Harris or Deron Williams, both Devin and Deron ouplayed TP by a wide-margin.

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:wtf

Parker averaged 20.2 points and 6.8 assists versus the Jazz last year. Williams played well but he was guarded by Bowen and the Spurs sent no help. The few times Parker got to guard him, he defended Williams better than anyone on the Spurs.

In the regular season last year, Parker averaged 21.5 points, 6.3 assists and shot 58% against the Jazz. Deron Williams averaged 15.8 points, 5.8 assists and shot 46% against the spurs.

And Devin Harris last year averaged all of 9.5 points and 2.3 assists against the Spurs while shooting under 39% from the floor. You still want to contend that Harris "outplayed TP by a wide margin"?

Didn't think so.

Parker certainly has his faults but bumping an old thread to post something so baseless is lame.

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Originally Posted by telecomguy

that is a valid point Ducks....but i believe Kidd and GP were playing at a very high level fairly early on in their career (correct me if i am wrong on this).

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Ok.

Payton played poorly for the first couple seasons of his career. When he was Parker's age, he was averaging under 10 points per game. Payton wasn't anything close to his prime until he was 28 years old. Before that, he was a very average point guard.

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Originally Posted by telecomguy

As for Nash, he didn't get as much playing time because in the beginning of his career, he was playing behind Kidd.

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In Nash's first couple seasons with the Mavs, he was playing behind guys like Erick Strickland and Robert Pack.