The Spurs might as well bring him in this summer. I believe he could elect to opt out and sign a new long term deal with Tau or another European club. If he does so, that could very well close the door on him being of any value to the Spurs.
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The Spurs might as well bring him in this summer. I believe he could elect to opt out and sign a new long term deal with Tau or another European club. If he does so, that could very well close the door on him being of any value to the Spurs.
How much would you want to pay him?
Obviously they would have to move one of the current bigs to do so. Butler seems to be on the bubble though I'd move Elson first.
Why do we draft guys if we know there's a buyout but we never do it? If Scola becomes history we'll all be wondering about Splitter.
Bring him or trade him.
If Spurs don't do something with his rights before July 15th, I have the feeling he will stay in europe for the rest of his career and Spurs will get nothing for him.
I thought I read a report that he was looking for 3 years/$10 mil. Sounds about right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
And leave who off the roster?
And make him sit the bench, or give him PT?
If you give him PT, who do you take it away from?
I'm all for Scola coming over, but it has to be the right situation. Having just signed Oberto and Bonner to an extension and guaranteeing the final year of Horry's contract....where is the room?
It's not too hard to project Scola as the better player over Butler and Elson for the next couple of seasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by PHAT TONY
I think it's too late for that. The Spurs have already re-signed Bonner and Oberto, and they kept Horry. How many PFs are they going to have on their roster? Besides, they've had the chance to sign him for the past two years, and chose otherwise. And it's not like they had some stellar player they just had to sign over him. I can't see the Spurs signing him. And most likely they'll keep pricing him out of other team's reach, so my guess is, he'll stay in Europe one more year. Possibly for the rest of his career.
I don't know, his trade value might plummet! He seems to be worth more while never touching an NBA floor. I'd be mad if he came in and looked terrible. Those 2nd round draft pick offers might start looking pretty good.
No doubt he'd be better than Elson. I'm still waiting/hoping on JB, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
Again, I'm a proponent of Luis being a Spur, but I'm not sure if he'll even want to come over to the NBA if he's destined to ride the pine for at least a year.
IMO, Luis wants to come to the NBA to play....and he won't be able to as long as he's Spurs property.
I sure as hell would rather have Scola than Bonner - the price was pretty similar - but the Spurs already have shown they don't want Scola. Probably a mistake, but whatever.
How many low post scorers do the Spurs have? Duncan & Butler. When TD leaves the game the Spurs have often struggled with their inside game. Scola would be a nice fit subbing for TD in the post against the league's reserve bigs.
I'm not sure why Spurs fans are sold on Elson. Scola can bring the same energetic game and he's more skilled. Elson was just clueless for most of the season when it came to the Spurs' defensive rotations. Plus he's not exactly that young.
Can we really call Butler a low-post scorer when he's not game-worthy? I'd advocate Scola over Butler in a heartbeat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
It's not Spurs fans you need to convince. It's the FO.
I'm trying to decide if I'd rather the Spurs trade his rights for a late first-rounder (like the Bulls') or just leave him overseas, so he won't be successful for another team.
Based on the number of holes the Spurs could have next season, I'd say it might be best to trade him to the Bulls for their 2008 1st rounder...if they'll do that deal.
That's the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Body
They've tried to get a first rounder for him for the past two years, and to no avail. Chances are, the FO is with you on the latter scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by PHAT TONY
I kinda like the idea of bringing in Scola and selling high on Elson this summer. Elson has an expiring contract and there are teams with worse bigman options in their rotation. Trading him for a future pick and bringing in Scola sounds like a decent plan.
The main reason why I'd consider trading high on Elson this summer is because the Spurs drafted Splitter. Splitter is almost the exact same player as Elson. Splitter is a little thicker and a better offensive player while Elson is a little faster. But come next summer, the Spurs have to bring in Splitter and Elson will be a free agent. Having both Elson and Splitter on the same team would be redundant.
I agree with Scola in principal but I think the Spurs would need to make another move before they do that. I don't think the answer would be trading away Butler because then you'd still be stuck with too many bigs who expect to play decent minutes.
bring scola in!!!! he's a beast!!!
Not sure the "atmosphere" was right for Scola to be dealt for a pick that high....Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel
But now, the Bulls have ZERO players that are good in the offensive post, Scola has been mentioned several times related to them, and the Bulls have plenty of young players with no need for more picks.
Seems like a logical fit, now more than ever.
I agree with timvp's idea, but my guess is the FO truly intends to stand pat. They'd rather have Elson this year than Scola - the switch from Elson next summer to Splitter will be painless and there's no need to get rid of Elson this year. The signing of Bonner is daft if it prevents Scola from getting that money. I hope the article saying they might trade off Butler after the summer league is true - with the intention of replacing his roster spot with Scola.
An added bonus of bringing Scola this year, then Splitter next, is that those two players should know one another's games very well by now.
Well first of all, Scola needs to present Tau with a buyout proposal before July 15th. Summer league will still be going on by that point, so the Spurs' read on Butler probably won't be complete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Body
Secondly, I don't know how you find the minutes for Oberto, Bonner, Horry, Elson and Scola next to Duncan. Scola is a bit of a hot head and won't be cool with going into the Stephen Jackson plan. Horry doesn't have to play much, but he still needs his playing time. The Spurs are invested in Bonner. I don't know if Elson would liked to be Butler'ed over night and become IR fodder.
If Scola is added, you have to get rid of a big who plays ... and the only one that makes sense is Elson. And he makes even more sense because I doubt the Spurs are re-signing him after drafting his Brazilian twin.
I'd rather see the Spurs bring in Scola than give him away for nothing. Elson never seemed to be a part of the Spurs' long term plans, but rather a stop gap. TD's now down to about 34 minutes a night in the regular season. So that's 14 minutes you can give to Scola. Take 6 from the center spot and you have 20 a night for him. I think he could do very well as a Spur and add a new wrinkle to the offense.
That would be a nice aspect if both were to play for the Spurs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Body
For the record, I'd advocate giving up any non-starting big to make room for Scola - Butler, Elson, Bonner, etc. - with the exception of Horry. If the Bonner signing fucked this up, I'd have to laugh. More likely it shows they don't intend on bringing him over.
If the Spurs get rid of Elson and give Scola his minutes, I have no problem with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
If the Spurs get rid of Butler and sit Scola on the bench, I have a problem...
Knowing the Spurs, they'd dump Butler even with a willing trade partner for Elson.
At this point it kind of sucks that the Spurs are basically holding Scola hostage. If they don't want him trade him for a second round if that's all they can get.
To me, the probability of Scola ever being a Spur has been chipped away at slowly....Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Body
First, they draft his teammate Splitter with the intention of bringing him over to be a F/C in the system in '08.
Then, they sign Oberto to a multi-year extension, further clogging the "big" rotation.
Finally, they sign Bonner to a multi-year deal, making it almost impossible for Scola to make the roster, let alone compete for minutes.
Oh..and somewhere in there they fully guaranteed the contract of Robert Horry.
Only way I see this going down is if some other big gets shipped out the door...but it seems that the Spurs had ample opportunity to create space for Scola this off-season and instead, they've gone in the opposite direction.
Obviously another option if they brought Scola in could be to further limit Tim Duncans regular season minutes...less chance of injury, fewer miles on the odometer, possibly add a year to TD's career, and build real trade value with Scola if it's a card they choose to play in the future....
That's correct, but it only accounts for this offseason. That's also been the case for the past two seasons as well, when they chose Oberto over Scola, and then Elson and Butler. At some point, one's got to consider the possibility it's not just a series of random cosmic coincidences.
I agree, but it's to bad they couldn't find a way to put him on the roster or get some value for him. It seems the Scola saga comes to an end very shortly and the Spurs couldn't manage to turn him into value.Quote:
Originally Posted by PHAT TONY
For me the key was resigning Bonner. Drafting Splitter was just BPA. Resigning Oberto and Horry were no-brainers - they got us through the Finals. But Bonner meant we had another PF and no roster spot for Scola. Maybe they're hoping that they can bring Scola over next year, maybe with Elson and Horry off the books. But I doubt it.Quote:
Originally Posted by PHAT TONY
What happens next summer? Horry's gone. Elson and Butler can be gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by PHAT TONY
Spurs could have...
4 Duncan/Scola/Bonner
5 Oberto/Splitter
That's a damn good 4/5 rotation and likely the four other than Duncan would be on cheap contracts (by NBA bigman contract standards).
If you're implying that they open up the rotation to include an 11th or 12th player, I just don't see it happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy
Oberto would be in the 9-10 man rotation the season after.Quote:
Originally Posted by PHAT TONY
And this year you carry seven bigs for the entire season, with roster regular Elson joining Butler on the IL for basically every game?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
I understand what sense it makes for the long-term, and again, I am for the Spurs bringing in Scola if the situation is right (Elson shipped out, etc.), but based on the recent pattern of behavior for this Spurs FO, it just doesn't seem like a likely occurence.
Conventional wisdom has Scola signing a long-term contract with Tau if he doesn't come over this year. Perhaps that is a bluff, perhaps the Spurs have told him he's 'definitely over' next year, but I don't know why he'd believe them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
Keeps TD's minutes down and gives you another low post scoring option. Makes too much sense to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicCowboy
The question remains whether Bonner was worth passing on Scola.
Bonner does give you the 4 with 3 point range. Elson is the one who is truly superfluous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Body
If Spurs thinks that Scola can't play well with Duncan, they are right not to give him a contract.
No, you move Elson or Butler (preferably Elson).Quote:
Originally Posted by PHAT TONY
That's a concern for perhaps 5 minutes a night. If Oberto can play with TD I think Scola can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
1. ParkerQuote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
2. Finley
3. Bowen
4. Duncan
5. Oberto
6. Ginobili
7. Horry
8. Elson
9. Barry
10. Vaughn
There's your 10 from last year. That list doesn't include Bonner already, and now you want to add Scola?
Again, I don't see it unless Elson gets completely taken out of the rotation...and then you still have to justify not playing Bonner, to whom you just gave a new contract.
The Spurs are paying Bonner under $3 mil next season. No biggie.
Moving Elson makes great sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
But what makes you think it'll happen?
And unless the Spurs send him, or Butler for that matter, to a team over the cap, they'll have to receive a player in return....
Is that player waived? Because, if not, the Spurs will have to make a decision regarding a lost roster spot...do they keep White or Williams?
I honestly never though I would see Pop going 10 deep. Spurs have clearly proven that they aren't gonna give 100% on short rotations trying to win the most regular season games. With 20+ back to backs in the regular season I could really see Elson in a suit most of the time and Scola getting some burn, while Tim and Horry get nights off. The new IR rules really give a team more flexibility.
The reason the Spurs pass on Scola is if they have truly bought into the 'league is moving towards superior athleticism at all spots' view. That could be why Butler was viewed as expendable by the Spurs earlier this year. Elson's athletic as hell, but that hasn't prevented him from sucking and watching the Spurs win a title from the bench as the somewhat less athletic Oberto was playing alongside TD.
There are a large number of teams with trade exceptions (something like 10 to 12). Surely one of those may be interested in an athletic big on a small contract with one guaranteed season remaining.Quote:
Originally Posted by PHAT TONY
Bonner fits a longterm need. Against certain defenses, you have to have a power forward next to Duncan who can shoot the ball. In Bonner, the Spurs found one who can do that plus rebound the ball and knock a few heads. He was too good of a fit to let go. Perhaps he still won't be needed next season because Horry will be around, but eventually he'll be needed.
Yeah, having a 4 with 3 point range to spread the floor and give TD room to operate is a significant plus for the team. Scola's value would be in what he can bring when TD is off the floor.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
If you are gonna stockpile talent at the 11-15 theres no better way to do it than with affordable, functional bigs...you can afford to break the cardinal rule of "never trade a big for a small" if you really have to...There are at least 25 teams in the league that would love to have the Spurs "problem".
TD off the floor is a 10 minutes a night concern when it matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
Unless you want to play Scola 15 mpg, He will play more than 5mpg with Duncan.
Splitter was a pick that changed a lot of things. Splitter will step right in for Elson after this season. Splitter will make like 1/4th as much money as Elson makes this year and will be able to do the same things on both ends of the court. Then I think that it's safe to say Splitter backs up Oberto until Splitter is ready to take the reigns as the starting center.
What's hard to figure out is where Butler and Scola fit in the mix. I think Butler has better potential than any big outside of Duncan. However, he's probably still a year or two from being ready to be championship caliber. Scola I think might even be better than Nocioni, but he doesn't exactly fit the current mold of the bigman rotation.
Where Oberto, Splitter and Bonner have the advantage is they are system players. They each have a role that they can do well. Scola and Butler are more multi-purpose players, but sometimes that works against you in the Spurs' system. Pop loved Malik until Malik had the audacity to look to shoot the ball.
I think Scola and Butler are too good to give away for nothing. It'd be great to work them into the system. Hopefully the Spurs can find a way to do that.
Dump Butler and bring him over. Id keep Elson because I still think he can be pretty good at times. Butler is young and has an upside, but I think Scola will be better than Butler in the long run.
TD played 34 minutes a night last season, so there's 14 for Scola right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
"when it matters" = playoffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
Dumping Elson lvs us in small balls territory again should the need arise.
Are you Elson Dumpers counting on Butler to be the other big?
Scola/Horry/Oberto/Butler next to Tim should be enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabbs
Sure, the Big 3 all see increased minutes in the postseason. It'd be nice to add a player who can help keep the Franchise's minutes down during the regular season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
I'm also not sure why Scola couldn't play with TD, especially for a limited amount of minutes a night. All Scola would have to do is cut to the rim occasionally, seal his man, and hit the offensive glass.
He can play with Duncan but what makes Scola a good player is his offensive game. Remove it and he is a bellow average player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
And all other Spurs are above average defensively? He can't be worse than Elson, that's for certain.
Not to get off subject, but it wasn't that Malik had the audacity to shoot. It's that he had the audacity to forget why he was valuable to the team and somehow felt compelled to live up to his ridiculous contract by doing the opposite of what earned him that ridiculous contract.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
But I digress.... I don't see that Bonner has anything to do with Scola's playing time. It's not like Matt Bonner is a 40 minute a night player. He sat on the bench all of last season, I don't see why they would hesitate to sit his ass on the bench in favor of a better player (i.e., Scola). They gave him a $3M deal. Big whoop. That says to me, we like you, but if you do anything positive on the basketball court it's all gravy.
While it appears there is a logjam in the front court, who besides Duncan really has his minutes guaranteed?
Horry -- he's a thousand years old and going to hibernate until the playoffs anyway.
Oberto -- he had a nice playoff run, but let's not get carried away here. There's a reason that a free agent center who started on a NBA champion wasn't flooded with free agent offers. He's also foul prone.
Elson -- could he have been any less of a factor in the playoffs? He is fast though. If we ever have to run the hundred yard dash against the Mavericks, I like the way he matches up with Erick Dampier.
Bonner -- what can you say about him? He's white. Kind of like a red headed Larry Bird minus the cheesy stache, tight shorts and basketball skill.
Butler -- do we know anything about his abilities other than his ability to grow a really freaky looking beard?
Am I missing something here? How the fuck could Scola not find minutes on this team?
And dumping Elson to sign Scola isn't a good idea.
Spurs biggest opponent is Dallas. Oberto can do a decent job on Dirk 20 mpg. Who do you want to play on Dirk the other 20 mpg : Duncan ? Bonner ? Old Horry ? Scola ? Small ball ?
Playoffs are all about matchup and Spurs need a player like Elson against Mavs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
Spurs aren't in it to repeat
or have you figure that out already
I'm all for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
But I'll believe it when I see it...
How much is the Cavs trade exception?
the need for a PF to shoot 3s is pretty much overstated imo.
#1, Spurs had PFs to shoot 3s in the years past (Ferry, even Lohaus). They weren't the difference maker, guys who could penetrate and create shots were like Manu and Parker.
#2, I think people are too readily confusing Horry the player with the idea of the PF position. You can get PFs who shoot 3s on the cheap. Austin Croshere. Keith Van Horn. Cliff Robinson. Sean Marks was good out to a long two-pointer easily, and he was a vet-minimum guy. Hell, if the Spurs wanted, they could have drafted Nick Fazekas and had him for cheap.
#3, as a result, just because Bonner can shoot 3s, doesn't make him a legit Horry replacement. Bonner will never get 5 blocks in a finals game. Bonner will never grab 9 rebounds in the first half of a finals game. Bonner will never be dependable to force multiple turnovers on inbounds passes with his crafty plays.
The only thing Bonner does even close to Horry is shoot from long range, and he's never done that in the clutch, ever.
Signing him to a contract nearly identical to the one Scola was asking for last summer is highly dubious.
$2.1M I think...Quote:
Originally Posted by ElliottFan
The primary reason for having a big with a J is that it opens up space inside for TD and to a lesser extent the perimeter players.Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
Then why is it Fabricio Oberto that plays the best off of Duncan?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
I agree with most everything Objective said about the Bonner signing.
Because Oberto's man is providing help on TD. Horry/Bonner's man has much more ground to cover.Quote:
Originally Posted by PHAT TONY
Tim Duncan doesn't always catch the ball 2ft from the basket in the low post. Sometimes he catches it 12-15 off and starts the backdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
My point was to say that the player alongside Duncan doesn't necessarily have to be a shooter.
I'd rather have the league's best low post player in the post, wouldn't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by PHAT TONY
Rediculous....way to distort my intention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
Are you telling me that you would rather play Bonner or Horry with Duncan rather than Oberto, because both of those players do their damage on the outside?
Answer this...which player on this Spurs roster plays best with Duncan? Does that player shoot the three?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
I would think that this would be more likely if the Spurs didn't have players like Duncan and to a lesser extent Oberto who aren't in that extremely athletic category and seem to do okay in the league...
Eh, my assertion was that having a 4 with an outside shot is best for TD's game. Now you have attempted to change the subject by raising the concern of who does best playing with TD. The surest sign of a lost argument.
Sure, they are looking for athleticism somewhere in the rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Austin
Fine....your argument holds true in theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
In theory, it's the most efficient way to operate alongside Tim Duncan.
But reality has not reflected theory....
Spurs did just fine in 03 with Robinson, Rose, and Willis next to Duncan.
Besides, just because Bonner can hit threes doesn't make him like Horry at all.
There is no equality between the Duncan/Horry combo and Duncan/Bonner combo.
I realize this will come off as non-spurs-fan material, but if the spurs arent going to bring scola over, they should trade him for a 2nd rounder or just release his rights, he deserves a chance to play in this league!!!
I still wont give up hope they will make a trade and bring him over now or at worst next season... but somebody in the FO has to have a plan and if it doesnt include him they should let him go.
Do the Spurs hold his rights in perpetuity, or do his rights get relinquished after a certain period of time?
Actually, it has. Horry. DRob.Quote:
Originally Posted by PHAT TONY
Did you just say that D-Rob was a three-point shooter?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
lol, Robinson wasn't even reliable on a jumper his last 3 seasons.
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by PHAT TONY
Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
Where was he on offense?
close to the basket on cuts, like the 4-5 alley-oop.
Besides, the reason the Horry-TD combo worked is not because Horry stood around drawing defenses out.
The reason Horry finished so many games in the playoffs is because of all the other things he did. The rebounds. The blocks. The cuts. The defense. The savvy.
Horry was a big time player who made big time plays. The simplistic view of Horry just being a three point shooter and that is why a long range threat is best next to Duncan is doing a disservice to how good Horry plays (when he's interested in playing that is).
Usually top of the key/right elbow to provide space for TD down low.Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
who cares about Scola when we have BONNER
Horry's value lies primarily in his threat beyond the arc. That doesn't diminish the value of his savvy play at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
And you don't think Scola is going to have the same learning "disability" his first year? :wtfQuote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
Really, check out the 5 man unit stats on 82games.comQuote:
Originally Posted by PHAT TONY
http://www.82games.com/0607/0607SAS2.HTM
Playing with the starters & variation with Barry in place of Gino (just to show the weird stuff that happens with Elson)
# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win%
Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Bonner-Duncan 46 116 78 +38 12 1 92.3
Parker-Barry-Bowen-Bonner-Duncan 38 66 78 -12 4 9 30.7
Bonner goes to the perimeter and Gino penetrates - works great. However, With Barry in place of Gino, it goes to hell.
Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Oberto-Duncan 290 571 503 +68 22 12 64.7
Parker-Barry-Bowen-Oberto-Duncan 109 211 182 +29 15 11 57.6
Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Duncan-Elson 173 391 302 +89 15 13 53.5
Parker-Barry-Bowen-Duncan-Elson 245 469 438 +31 21 9 70.0
This pair of 5 man units is weird. It appears that Elson works a LOT better with Barry's perimeter shooting vs. Gino's peneration
Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Horry-Duncan 172 328 295 +33 21 13 61.7
Parker-Barry-Bowen-Horry-Duncan 81 170 124 +46 21 11 65.6
It's weird that Bonner is so much more succesful when working with Parker, Gino, Bowen and TD. On the other hand, compare Horry and Bonner EFG% .458 vs .523 (Bonner wins), RB Rating 21.3 vs. 25.7 (Bonner Wins).
Although the samples for Bonner's play are small, it appears he works rather well as a perimeter shooting big besides TD.
yeah, but the problem is, if you trade Elson to get him, you don't have any depth at center. For some lineups/matchups Elson's 7' size is effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
So you'd be playing Oberto next to Scola.
I'd like to see him in a Spurs uni, just to see what the best big in Europe can do in the NBA, but I don't see it happening this year because of all the contracts we just signed.
I think the Spurs are willing to wait on his contract with Tau to expire. I know Tau would like to sign him now to an extension, but his leverage would be better next year after he is free.
[QUOTE=objective]
#2, I think people are too readily confusing Horry the player with the idea of the PF position. QUOTE]
Great post. People are forgetting that Horry was once compared to a Scottie Pippen. He didn't grow into that role, but he consistently shows the athleticism, length, and BB IQ that spurred those comparisons. Horry is a wonderful player. In a way, Horry is an older version of the proverbial "long 3" we are looking for...
Wouldn't Scola provide some interior scoring when TD is on the bench. That's his reputation as one of the best post players not in the NBA. It's so easy to dismiss him as not athletic or big enough but he's skilled and fundamentally sound and if he plays with any sort of Argentine passion, these more than make up for an inch or two of missing height in my book. If he can keep the defense honest to any extent, then he will be able to help the team's perimeter game.