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You're usually right, but you're dead wrong on this one Fat Tony.
Butler is a fat scrub who needs chingos minutes to be effective. He needs playing time to grow and he is never going develop in SA unless Duncan gets hurt, Elson dies, and Robert Horry's knees lock up permanently.
18pts 12 rbs in one game of a summer league where he has mostly shown laziness (18 seconds to get up the court), lack of desire, and self doubt are not what the Spurs need coming off the bench for 8-10 minutes a game.
Elson is worthless and Horry's knees just might lock up permanently.Quote:
Originally Posted by cholo
But let's say you're right and he doesn't get off the bench this year. I'd say he'll be just as attractive a prospect by trade deadline time (when the lux tax is enforced) as he is right now...so why trade him before he's had the opportunity to prove what he can do on the court?
If he gets traded I won't be floored, but it seems idiotic to trade him unnecessarily early AND get absolute crap in return.
What about trading Butler for Antoine Wright? He has started getting some playing time and the Nets are pretty full at the swing position.
He is a long SF that Pop might be able to whip into a great defender.
We better keep Butler.
It's amazing how people are nuts about James White but so lukewarm about Jackie Butler. Both players have a huge ceiling but are not sure things to reach it. But both could be special players in their own right.Quote:
Originally Posted by PHAT TONY
I suppose I'm undervaluing the worth of highflying dunks?
For the record, I'm not advocating trading Butler because I think he has a lot of upside potential. He is only 22.
Still, if they were to deal with the Nets, I think Wright could be a good prospect as a role player in the SF position.
I disagree that their ceilings are that high. Maybe a bit higher than they are now, but to me they're WYSIWYG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwaters
If the Spurs are close to the luxury tax, I can easily see them giving away Butler for a trade exception. I wouldn't like it - I'd rather they deal Elson, but I could easily see them doing it.
Wright reportedly has a bad work ethic and is a cocky mofo - I'm not sure how his personality would fit in here.Quote:
Originally Posted by 50 cent
Empty roster spot > Antoine WrightQuote:
Originally Posted by 50 cent
You expect a bench player to be untradeable :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by ploto
-Butler isn't expensive. One year and $2.3M for a legit center prospect is cheap. Butler doesn't make that much more than a first round pick, which is exactly what he would have been if he was eligible for the draft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
-It's pretty early to guess what his playing time situation will be. But yeah, this team is deep at bigs. However, I don't think it'd be impossible for him to move up in the rotation.
-Mahinmi is a decent project but with him, he'd have zero chance of breaking the rotation.
-Butler is a good project. Cheap, young centers don't grow on trees. He has very good hands, good touch around the basket and is usually a good rebounder. He still has a lot of area where he can improve but then again, he wouldn't have been able to be signed if he didn't.
-How is Butler a worse fit next to Duncan than Scola? Butler has the ability to be a good rebounder and a good shotblocker. Those are the two areas that Scola doesn't contribute in that make him redundant next to Duncan.
All that said, I probably consider Butler for a first round pick just because the Spurs need roster flexibility. But even that is a move that could come back to look stupid in a few years.
Butler has his share of negative traits. He can still get in better shape. His mobility is less than what you'd like on a player playing next to Tim. He sometimes loafs and loses concentration easily. He's not a very good defender yet and has a lot of room to improve in terms of defensive fundamentals.
But he has traits that make him an intriguing prospect. He has outstanding hands. He has a soft touch around the basket. When his energy level is right, he's a good rebounder and shotblocker. He's a good passer for his size (leading the summer league team in assists). He has a surprisingly high basketball IQ for his position and age. Basically, Butler just has that natural basketball ability you see in players like Zach Randolph and Al Jefferson. He knows how to play.
Sure, there's still a good chance he never becomes anything. In five years, I'd say there is a 50/50 chance that he's still in the league. But he has the tools to not only be in the league in five years, but also be a starting center in the league. It'll just come down to how much he wants it and whether he gets his shot. The natural ability is there.
Do you give up on a 22-year-old center with natural ability just because you want to open up a roster spot? Perhaps, but it'd be a risky move.
And let's remember what happened this time last summer. Thorn trades for Mikki Moore, who was the Sonics third string center, and Moore explodes. Thorn isn't a dumb GM. If he wants Butler, he also sees the potential.
I'd be tempted by a first round pick from the Nets just because they could easily suck and the pick could be high. But for a second round pick, I'd rather keep Butler and see if he comes to camp ready to battle for a spot in the rotation.
trade the useless slow crap
:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Body
I haven't heard that acronym in forever....
But I disagree with it. How can you say that you've seen all you can from two guys that have relied on their natural ability (either sheer size in Butler's case, and elite athleticism in White's case) to get them to this point without really developing that skill required.
Yes, there is risk in the degree of projectability for both, but I don't think either has scratched the surface on what they could become.
I'm not saying they become the players they could be...but I doubt they're done growing.
Butler's ceiling is much higher than White's. White's ceiling is basically a poor man's version of Bowen defensively with a worse outside shot but better overall scoring ability. White isn't going to turn into a superstar. He's played too many years of competitive basketball and is too old to become much better than he is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Body
Butler, on the other hand, is raw. He came straight out of high school ... and even in high school he didn't play that much. At his age, Butler probably has played less competitive basketball than anyone in the NBA.
While that hurts his current level of play, it also means that he has a lot of potential. Sure, he could never reach the potential, but the potential is there to become more than what we see today.
i wanna see more of butler and on the court during the reg season!
why trade such a young bball'r who has all the potential to be something big here in SA? give the kid a shot first before you ship his ass off.
as for james white, well he is gonna be something special in 2 yrs. remember that!
I'm all for a trade Butler for Boone. (if this probably was the Nets offer)
it would also help to avoid lux tax (saves abou 1.2 million in salary) and we would add a player, who might turn into what some hoped Elson could be.
(Dirk defender etc.).
Boone is very limited, but he is a very hard worker, good defender and good athlete. much more upside than Elson. (who hasn't any upside, considering his age).
Nets just drafted a similar player in Williams and Collins is another PF/C, who can defend but not score. so Booner might be the odd man out.
IMO a trade that might help both teams.
We will see how Butler will really cost when the luxury tax threshold will be known (today or tomorrow).Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Move up over who ?Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Is it a problem to have a 6th bigman not able to break the rotation ?Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Don't forget that Spurs' 6th bigman main quality in 04-05 and 05-06 was to be a nice guy.
Butler has played 103 min with Spurs this year and hasn't blocked a single shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Butler is a worse fit than Scola to play with Duncan because he is slower and because he is even more a low post player than Scola.
Forget about Scola. He will never play for the Spurs. I don't understand why some of you can't understand that.
Can Butler sustain another season of working out if he's not getting floor time.
Beno and Barry are both worse contracts than Butler. Butler at least has upside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
It's not inconceivable that Butler works his way up to the backup center spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
So you want Mahinmi because he is a nice guy? Personally, I'll take whichever one is the better player with the higher upside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
So he didn't block a shot in what most players play in three games so you gave up on his shotblocking ability?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
Butler has been hitting his jumpers in summer league. I'd say they are both the same amount dependent at being in the low block.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
But what the Spurs have harped on with Scola is they want to see him rebound better. Butler has shown the ability to rebound.
scola who?Quote:
Originally Posted by 50 cent
Valid concern. You'd hope so but I'm sure he didn't sign with the Spurs to be confined to the IR for years.Quote:
Originally Posted by picnroll
And ?Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
It's not sure that Spurs could move Beno or barry for a trade exception/lower salary.
Spurs need a player like Elson against team with a quick bigman (like Mavs..). Giving Elson spot to Butler makes no sense. Elson is far from being a good player but Spurs need him.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Personally I take the player that can help Spurs the msot in the future. I don't care if the player has zero chance to breah the rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Say the man who has given up on Elson after one preseason game...Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
And Elson is a better shotblocker than Butler.
And Spurs have asked Butler to lose weight to be quicker. Scola has shown the ability to be quicker than Butler.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Poor trekkie...Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr1trekkie
The bottom line is this team needs a low post presence when Duncan goes out of the game, because we haven't had one since Drob retired.
Bruno you hear of any team in Europe looking at Mahinmi?
the Nets don't have anything that the Spurs would want. I don't see them listening to any Nets offer. we will keep butler