from the express news article on how the east side hasnt been developed and is still shit
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/met....1d7130ad2.jpg
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/met...a.344e6c7.html
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from the express news article on how the east side hasnt been developed and is still shit
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/met....1d7130ad2.jpg
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/met...a.344e6c7.html
Worth to be read
An Arena Wasteland
Web Posted: 11/04/2007 12:54 AM CDT
John Tedesco
Express-News
When Bexar County asked voters in 1999 to approve a $175 million arena for the San Antonio Spurs, officials promised it would spark "economic development opportunities" for the neglected East Side.
Today, few businesses have opened their doors near the arena — even as the Spurs ask for more tax dollars to upgrade the 5-year-old AT&T Center.
A new tattoo parlor on Houston Street appears to be the latest investment in the neighborhood. It opened in a stretch of boarded-up buildings in early 2006, said David Leon, the shop's ornately tattooed owner.
Business is good, Leon said. But no customers stop by after a Spurs game.
"I think they're too scared to even stop, because of how bad the label of the East Side is," Leon said.
Despite a lot of talk and studies, the neighborhood around Leon's shop hasn't changed much since Nov. 2, 1999, when voters overwhelmingly agreed to subsidize the arena with a venue tax on hotel rooms and car rentals.
The team wants to tap into the venue tax again, a move that will be up to voters. The Spurs started with a wish list of $164 million in improvements for the AT&T Center. The county told the team to whittle their proposal to $75 million.
More coverage
Talk Back: Do you think the AT&T Center has improved life for the people who live and work nearby?
Bexar County Community Arenas Masterplan
Bexar County Community Arena Project's 1999 FAQ
But so far, the arena has failed to accomplish everything voters were once promised by the county. Sluggish growth near the AT&T Center has troubled those who argued against the location.
"It's been disappointing to me that there hasn't been more development in that area," said former Mayor Howard Peak, who tried unsuccessfully to have the arena built downtown.
Peak is a member of a San Antonio River committee that, like the Spurs, is seeking venue tax dollars. Peak said he's not trying to spoil the team's efforts to improve the AT&T Center. And he insisted he has no desire to reopen old wounds from the heated arena campaign of 1999. In fact, Peak said he likes the arena and believes it serves a vital purpose.
But a lack of change in the aging neighborhood near the arena gnaws on the former mayor. African Americans and Hispanics are the majority on the East Side, and many residents there feel left out of the city's booming growth.
(Bob Owen/Express-News)
The run-down neighborhood around the AT&T Center hasn't changed much since the venue was built.
"The thing that bothers me the most is, the East Side is one of the areas that needs lots of help," Peak said. "There are good people there who want better things for the neighborhoods they live in. Lots of money was spent. And except for some relatively small instances, the area is much the same as it was."
Empty promises?
County Commissioner Tommy Adkisson, a staunch supporter of the arena, insisted voters were never assured of an East Side revival.
"We never promised a rose garden, so to speak, because we knew going in, it wasn't going to be the end all, be all," said Adkisson, who debated Peak on local television in 1999 about the merits of where to build the arena.
Adkisson said if the AT&T Center had been built downtown next to the Alamodome, as Peak proposed, it would have cost taxpayers more money, and it would have created nightmarish traffic jams.
And Adkisson said the arena clearly improved the East Side, despite the lack of visible growth. The arena draws large crowds for concerts, special events and the annual Stock Show & Rodeo.
Women and minorities owned many companies that helped build and operate the 18,500-seat arena, he said.
"It was the great mother lode of economic opportunity" for those companies, Adkisson said.
During the intense campaign for the arena plan in 1999, the county's sales pitch included many promises. The arena was built primarily to keep the Spurs in San Antonio. But part of the pitch said the venue also would be a "new node for economic development."
The county's Web site offered voters a "frequently answered questions" page regarding the arena proposal. Under the question of "who benefits," the county's FAQ sheet said the new arena "spreads the wealth" by bringing "the potential of spin-off economic development opportunities to an underdeveloped part of the community."
One of those opportunities was an entertainment district, according to then-County Judge Cyndi Taylor Krier, who spearheaded the push for the site's location.
Three months before the November 1999 election, Krier told the San Antonio Express-News that civic and business groups had discussed ideas about how to develop the area.
Those ideas, Krier said, included "restaurants, a hotel, an entertainment district, recording industry facilities, an ag industry showcase and sports training facilities."
In the years after the election, local officials and the Spurs held out cautious hope that the arena would be a catalyst for growth.
Spurs owner Peter Holt estimated it could take a decade or longer.
"We have purposely tried not to over-promise," Holt told the San Antonio Business Journal in October 2002, a month before the Spurs first played in the new arena.
"We can't change this neighborhood overnight," Holt said. "However, there is the beginning of some momentum here. Now we have to keep it going."
No change
Krier was on her cell phone with a reporter last week, answering questions about the AT&T Center, when she had an idea.
"Why don't we go over there together?" she asked.
Krier had fought hard as county judge to give the East Side a new arena. She clashed with then-Mayor Peak about the venue's tax funding and location.
The bitter fight left scars that, eight years later, have yet to heal. On the phone, Krier suspected — incorrectly — that Peak had tipped off a reporter about the arena's failures.
"He absolutely refused to work with the county in any way on this," Krier said.
A few hours later, Krier drove to the newspaper building in a gray Ford Taurus she calls her "mobile office," picked up her passenger and turned left on Houston Street, the main corridor to the arena.
It was a sunny autumn afternoon, and as she drove toward the AT&T Center, Krier pointed out how the street had been repaved and cleaned up.
"It's clearly become safer, and its appearance has been upgraded," the impromptu tour guide said. "That's often a first step to get folks to come back in."
Krier sees potential for growth beyond the arena's immediate area. The stretch of Houston Street leading to the East Side, for example, could be redeveloped to offer an attractive link between the arena and downtown, she said.
Within view of the arena, the drive was interrupted by a Union Pacific train rumbling across Houston Street. The spot where Krier stopped, off the southwest corner of the arena's sprawling parking lots, offered a snapshot of the chaotic mix of land uses surrounding the site.
The nearest buildings were Leon's tattoo parlor, a tiny funeral home, an auto repair shop, a vacant liquor store and a quiet, aging neighborhood.
Beyond the tracks on Houston Street, a Coca-Cola bottling plant operates south of the arena. Directly to the east, golfers hit the links at the city-owned Willow Springs Golf Course. A Ryder truck rental office and similar companies do business in an industrial zone north of the arena.
Few, if any, businesses appear to complement a state-of-the-art sports arena.
A 2003 study conducted for the city, the county, the Spurs and a community group noted that the "disorganized area" surrounding the AT&T Center challenged redevelopment. The area is an "incongruous mix of industrial, commercial and residential uses, as well as underutilized and vacant land."
Cake, no icing
In Krier's eyes, opportunity fills the area. Salado Creek flows east of the arena, and she said it could be a beautiful spot for development outside the flood plain.
She noted sparks of new investment. At the Willow Springs Golf Course, former Spurs player George "The Iceman" Gervin opened a restaurant in 2003.
Northeast of the golf course, Bill Tidwell, president of Cardell Cabinetry, bought the luxurious Red Berry Mansion in 2002 and remodeled it for special events, such as weddings and corporate meetings. The mansion is about a mile from the AT&T Center.
As the last of the rattling Union Pacific cars rolled by, Krier shifted the Taurus into gear. The arena loomed into view and Krier pulled into the parking lot.
She checked the odometer.
"OK, 3 miles," Krier announced.
To critics who felt the arena should be built downtown to bolster the tourist-dependent economy, here was evidence that they nearly got their wish, she said.
"It really is closer than I think folks realize," Krier said.
As Krier explored the streets and neighborhoods around the arena, she occasionally dwelled on the unhappy possibility that more shops and restaurants won't be built near the AT&T Center.
She acknowledged there's not much for Spurs fans to do after a game. Police direct the flow of traffic away from the center as efficiently as possible. Krier wondered if more restaurants could be built on the property for fans who want to stay, maybe for dessert or coffee.
Looking back on the 1999 arena campaign, Krier said County Commissioner Adkisson was right — the county had been careful to refrain from grandiose pledges of an East Side revival.
When reminded of her comments before the election about an entertainment district, Krier said: "That absolutely was something that's been discussed. It just hasn't materialized.
"That would have been icing on the cake," she added. "We still have the cake — in the AT&T Center."
A bad choice?
Critics of publicly subsidized sports stadiums say the venues are poor economic generators.
Neil deMause, co-author of the book "Field of Schemes," said the only successes he's found are in areas that started taking off before the sports team arrived — places like the SoMa District in San Francisco, the Gaslamp Quarter in San Diego, Calif., and Baltimore's Inner Harbor.
"What you want to help promote development is something that will bring people there to shop 365 days a year," deMause wrote in an e-mail to the Express-News.
"And sports facilities, which are dark more nights than not, only open for a few hours a day when they are, and encourage fans to spend as much as possible inside their gates, don't fit the bill very well."
The Colorado Rockies disappointed fans in the World Series this year. But their Coors Field, built in Denver's thriving LoDo, or lower downtown, area, has won many supporters.
Asked to describe business during the World Series, bartender Michael Derben answered: "It was insane."
Derben serves drinks at the El Chapultepec jazz bar in Denver, a block away from Coors Field.
"Pretty much every bartender I know is begging for a vacation right now," Derben said.
LoDo was on an upswing before Coors Field opened in 1995. Civic boosters said pedestrians walking to games and hanging out downtown afterward have helped LoDo thrive. Public transit solves some potential parking problems.
"It's a case of the stars aligning — Coors Field definitely being one of those stars," said Sarah McClean, spokeswoman for the nonprofit Downtown Denver Partnership.
In San Antonio, the California-based HollyHills Group has bought land around the arena and announced plans for a complex of shops, sports fields, a hotel and even a NASCAR track. Some county officials were openly skeptical.
"We have not walked away from the East Side vision," said T.J. Connolly, the company's spokesman.
But he criticized the county for lacking a vision of its own.
The county paid more than $200,000 for a study last year that examined how to revamp the AT&T Center property and the surrounding neighborhood. That research is now "collecting dust," Connolly said.
The study recommended that a 200-room hotel and sports field be built near the golf course at Willow Springs, with the goal of attracting people seven days a week, not just during events at the AT&T Center.
One chapter of the study is titled "Fulfilling the Promise."
Has it been fulfilled?
"I think it's a work in progress," said former Mayor Ed Garza, whose firm helped write the study.
No clear answer
County Judge Nelson Wolff said it could take years for anything significant to happen near the arena. He noted that the hotels, condos and restaurants built near the Alamodome were a long time in coming — and it doesn't hurt that the Alamodome is downtown.
"Stadiums, in and of themselves, do not create economic development," Wolff said. It's going to take an investor with deep pockets and government backing to reshape the neighborhood, he said, and so far the most promising discussion he's had is with Tidwell, the owner of Red Berry Mansion and other properties near the arena.
"He's a businessman. I said, 'You need to bring somebody in who's a developer, who will work with you,'" Wolff recalled. "I don't know what he's done with that."
Messages left at Tidwell's office last week weren't returned. City Councilwoman Sheila McNeil, who is working on bringing new entertainment venues to the East Side, also did not return repeated messages.
From the Spurs' perspective, spokesman Leo Gomez said the NBA team is proud of its neighbors. But he emphasized the Spurs never promised a new arena would bring them an economic boom.
"We know better than that," Gomez said. "It hasn't worked in any other community in the country. And it's not going to happen here."
Gomez said the real question for voters is simple: Should the AT&T Center continue to be a top-notch facility for San Antonio? If so, he said, it needs more tax dollars to keep it that way.
Within view of the arena last week, a woman stood across from Leon's tattoo parlor, hawking purses to passing motorists.
Denise Nobles, a lifelong East Side resident, seemed surprised by this question: Has the arena improved life for the people who live and work nearby?
Nobles noted that the many potholes of East Houston Street have been paved over. The repairs probably wouldn't have happened, she said, without the AT&T Center.
"I feel like, they wouldn't have done it just for the blacks," Nobles said.
Trying to think of other possible benefits, Nobles remembered that a friend works at the arena.
"A lot of people got jobs over there," Nobles noted, referring to the small army of employees that sell concessions and maintain the cavernous structure.
"They're not paying jack," she said of the arena jobs. "But when you're not doing nothing, anything helps."
When it came to whether the arena has ever drawn new investment to neighborhood, Nobles kept hitting a dead end. Finally, she gave an answer.
"You know what?" she said. "I really don't know. Maybe it is helping, but I just don't see it."
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That is one monster article. I read about 1/2 of it and gave up when I saw how much more there was. The bottom line is while there may be some new shops or what have you around the att center, but the surrounding area is going to be poor. 99.5% of the 'economic improvement' isn't going to reach the nearby residents, it's going to be for the people that own the shops. Perhaps some minimum/low wage jobs will open up, but other than that, the att center isn't driving money into the surrounding area.
Well, except for ticket scalpers and the valero gas station.
very interesting article.
well written.
i wish the spurs still played downtown in order to hang out after a game.
You tell any NBA fan that never been to SBC Center and they would be amazed where it is.
I think so many still think its downtown due to TV coverage always showing riverwalk.
Howard Peak is the Mike D'Antoni of San Antonio. What a little shit. You lost, bitch. Let it go. Your "owners" in the hotel and restaurant cabal were too slow and had a bad plan: increase the sales tax. That would have never passed, and the Spurs would have been the team moving to OKC.
IIRC, the city arena plan was situated in what was Victoria Courts, almost as far away from Commerce street as the SBC, albeit in a Southerly rather than Easterly direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by spurscenter
BTW, open your eyes, people. The only reason this is even a story is the fact that since the bond on the SBC was retired early, and the county wants to renew to do river walk and SBC improvements, the H&R industry trots out their little lapdog, Howard Peak, to try to kill this, because they don't want the hospitality tax to continue. Yeah, it killed tourism, just like you said it would Howard. I know I haven't seen a fucking tourist or conventioneer in downtown since it passed. :hat
I must admit, I haven't kept up-to-date on this issue. But, why does the 5 year old AT&T Center need improvements?
Because the Spurs asked for it. There was a laundry list of items in the original articles in the E-N. Go do a search on their website.
As long as it's tied to a 5 year extension on their lease, I'm OK with it. This didn't hit my wallet at all, the first time around.
So what if the Spurs asked for it? Spoiled sports franchises, begging for the public to fund their operations, are becoming a real PITA. Granted, there is a euphoria surrounding the Spurs right now because we're in the midst of a successful franchise producing a dynasty.
I wonder why the hospitality tax can't be used for other revenue generating venues, since it is obvious that stadiums are not such a measure. There are many creative solutions to bringing in real money rather then dumping money in the lap of a sports institution. We funded the majority of that fucking arena. Let them handle their own renovation projects. 100 million to enclose the Sombrilla and to reconfigure the lower seats? :rolleyes Fuck them. They're just being greedy. Are they not recovering money with their lofty ticket price increases? And they think that reconfiguring the lower seats and enclosing a fucking sports bar is going to bring in more money? I would love to have what they're smoking.
:lol They won't get nearly all of their list of items, and they know that. The tactic is this: They want A and B, so they ask for A,B,C, and D. My guess is that they get their lower bowl seat improvements, and a few other spiffy items for the suites and scoreboards, they sign a 5 year lease extension, and the Riverwalk improvements get thrown in so that it passes. That's your revenue generator. The RW is the economic dynamo that makes downtown tourism run.
The reality is that public money supports sports teams, everywhere. You can rail against it, but it is what it is, and if you demure, you're not competing. It's always going to be financially cheaper to keep it upgraded and extend their lease, too. If you let it become a 20 YO arena, then there's another vote to build a new one. These improvements stall that for 5 years.
How can you even compare half a mile (Victoria Courts) to 3 miles (where they eventually put it). Come on, please don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by exstatic
Are people going to walk half a mile? No? Then if they get in their cars, what's the diff? Maybe 5 minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Holly
Face it: the only good place directly contiguous to downtown to put a sports venue has one already. Anything else is driving distance for 90% of people.
I don't know why we're talking about the VC arena, anyway. It's as dead as Peak's political career and the sales tax increase they wanted to fund it.
I'm not sure that the lack of development around the AT&T Center can be attributed to either the Spurs or the County. Each invested money in that spot to create a facility that allows for ready-made customers on many nights of the year. The opportunity is there for entreprenuers to undertake development that might revitalize the community; the onus, though, is on the entreprenuers to sieze that opportunity. The County can provide incentives for development in that area and the Spurs can lend support to such developments, but neither the County nor the Spurs can make them do it.
As for the location of the AT&T Center, the thing that's forgotten is that location became a substantially less vital concern when Howard Peak fumbled the arena initiative in late 1998 and early 1999 -- exstatic is absolutely right. The City had the first crack at devising an arena plan to keep the Spurs in San Antonio. Peak and Company put together a plan that would have put the new arena in a more reasonable place, but did so with a funding plan that made absolutely no sense -- and it also tried to piggy-back a bunch of unpopular programs on top of the arena plan.
When the City failed in its attempt to devise a useful arena plan, the County had the wherewithal to realize that without an arena plan, there would be no Spurs -- that Peter Holt's group wasn't kidding about relocating without a new building.
Once the City dropped the ball, it's not as if the County government could just decide to locate a new building on city-owned property. County government has extraordinarily limited powers and even more limited physical space in which to operate. A County-funded project was necessarily going to be constructed on County-owned (or County-condemned) property.
In that sense, complaining about the building being located outside of downtown is complete folly.
The County's problem was that the most sensible County property for building such an arena was the area around the Freeman Coliseum. That property was in an economically-underdeveloped area and would not exploit existing infrastructure. But it was a place to build a modern mid-sized arena necessary to keep the Spurs in San Antonio (which was, I think, the most pressing issue at the moment -- the Spurs were absolutely leaving without a new building and anyone who suggests otherwise doesn't remember what was going on in 1999 very well).
The City thought it could call the Spurs' bluff, but Holt wasn't bluffing. The County realized that and acted quickly, even if somewhat rashly, to keep the Spurs viable in San Antonio. They've created opportunity, but few have been willing to seize that opportunity. Perhaps the opportunity is not economically-viable yet, or maybe there's some kind of prejudice at play in the lack of community development around the building.
Regardless, the City and County (by extension) would have been, I think, much worse off had the Spurs departed. As things stood in 1999, the choices were to build at the current site and hope for good things to happen around it or to not build at all and hope that in 20-30 years, San Antonio could lure another professional sports franchise to fill the void. Choice A seems a much wiser course to me.
The ATT is in an awful location and anyone who thought fans would hang around the area after the game was crazy.
Point fingers at whoever but ultimately it was STUPID not to build it downtown. When I go to games I just shake my head at the lost promotional opportunities and the totally justifiable jokes made by the outside media. I guess it's good for the restauranteers at the ATT because where the hell else are you going to go to get soemthing to eat before a game?
It's half a mile from Commerce, that was my point. And why would they walk when parking would have been available at the arena. Or does everyone walk from downtown to the at&t center?Quote:
Originally Posted by exstatic
Are you talking about the Alamodome? Has is that the only good place? It's across the freakin' highway. If the city handled this currently, had the will and creativity back then they could have placed an arena somewhere in the (now) River North District.Quote:
Face it: the only good place directly contiguous to downtown to put a sports venue has one already. Anything else is driving distance for 90% of people.
What's with your hardon for Peak? Did he bang your wife in 1999 or something? Get over whatever silly gripe you have with that guy. That's not what any of this is about. It's about placing a arena in the area in was placed. It was a bad choice, clear and bottom line.Quote:
I don't know why we're talking about the VC arena, anyway. It's as dead as Peak's political career and the sales tax increase they wanted to fund it.
Should have torn dome Ciserno's Kickback Palace and built a great great basketball arena.
I don't disagree. But, again, that's not on the Spurs (who were left to take whichever plan was most viable) and it's not on the County (which couldn't have built downtown). The first opportunity to construct a new building was offered to the City, but Howard Peak put politics in front of practicality and lost that opportunity for the City. Plan B was to build away from downtown and hope that businesses would follow; that was better than Plan C, which would have had Spurs' fans flying to New Orleans, St. Louis, Oklahoma City, Memphis, Orange County, or who knows where else to see their team play.Quote:
Originally Posted by picnroll
Where exactly was Bexar County going to construct a building downtown? With what authority was Bexar County going to be able to acquire enough land to build such a building downtown? And how, if the City of San Antonio couldn't come up with a reasonable funding plan for such a building, could the building be constructed under the City's auspicies, which would be necessary to constructing such a building downtown?Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Holly
All of this talk about where the building is located wholly misses the historical facts that existed at the time (not the City's project) and the governmental limitations that limited the County's options (because it was not the City's project).
I think that the NEISD screwed the pooch by not granting the TIF to have the new arena built at the old Longhorn Cement facility.
That would have been a much better location for the arena.
Im no Arean Expert on this, but arnt a lot of stadiums and arenas not located in central down town area of their perspective cities?? I know Houstons Stadium is on the South side and i belive their Arena is too. In Dallas, isnt their current stadium in Irving Texas? I dont know about alot of others, but Im sure alot of others are not located in central downtown. Havent it downtown jsut makes it better to travel to from all parts of town. How many people actually stay after a Spurs game at the Alamo dome? I just jetted out of there. That one guy did have a point about eating. When I go to the Att center, I think where I might goeat before a game. whemn you think of the att center, you dont think of any places to eat close by. I end up going to some place off WW white to grab a quick bite. I think the Spurs would have preferred downtown, but at the time, it just wasnt gonna happen.
Speaking of the att Center, Is it just me or is the way its designed make it look like there is alot less people donw there. Seems like their is stairs comign out everyhwere taking up valueable seat space.
The BIGGG crunch will come when the Spurs aren't very good anymore. Only the very few most fanatical fans will drive their asses to that sorry place. That's when the price will be paid.
Doesn't it seem that stadiums/arenas usually seem to be located in ghetto areas? One notable exception is the Verizon Center in DC, which is actually located in a fairly upscale area amidst many hotels and office buildings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1369
Exactly.
Where do I say anything about Bexar county building downtown?Quote:
Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown
Why are you asking me questions? All I said was the negativity towards the AT&T center is where it was placed. Now you're asking me fore 8 year old answers.Quote:
And how, if the City of San Antonio couldn't come up with a reasonable funding plan for such a building, could the building be constructed under the City's auspicies, which would be necessary to constructing such a building downtown?
The three stupidest things ever to happen in SA were:
1. Tearing down the perfectly good Hemisfair Arena
2. Building the Alamodome without getting a pro football team first (now that UTSA is online maybe that will be ok)
3. Sticking the new Spurs arena out in the slums. Everyone knows it should have been built downtown. Used to love going to that bar at the river level of the (older) Marriott after the games.
Huh? I could run off 20 pro arenas/stadiums off the top of my head that are not in ghetto areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by TampaDude
Madison Square Garden
Staples Center
Toyota Center
University of Phoenix stadium
Coyote Arena
Us Airways Arena
American Airlines Arena
Coors Field
American Airlines Center
Reliant Stadium
Minute Maid Park
Conseco Fieldhouse
Rose Garden
Arco Arena
Pepsi Center
EnergySolutions Arena
Q Loan Center
Philips Arena
Raymond James Stadium
Charlotte Bobcats Arena
Lambeau Field
:rolleyes The Hemisfair wasn't "perfectly good."Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfan
That seems to hold true across most major sports citiesQuote:
Originally Posted by TampaDude
If the Verizon Center is the former MCI Center, which was formerly the old Capital Centre, then I would argue how upscale the area really is. Unless they've made significant improvements within the recent years, I distinctly remember this building being located just a few short blocks away from the inner-city, D.C. ghetto. If the city has indeed upgraded the area, then Kudos. It surely needed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TampaDude
Couldn't agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfan
Immediate access to numerous hotels, the Riverwalk with its various restaurants and nightlife made a downtown location simply the best and logical choice site for a new arena. Hell, the could've possible built the new arena on the site of the old Hemisfair grounds. How cool would that have been?
To this day, I don't understand why the county/city couldn't come to terms on that. When I heard the plans about building up the area around the Coliseum area, I suspected it was a "sales job". So far, that's all it was.
As a side note, I'd be curious to know if opposing teams stay downtown and are bused to the new arena.
The Spurs are truly one of the best-run organizations in sports. However, it's obvious that S.A. city management and leadership are still very much junior-league.
I've lived in SA and a few other places. 2 of my most recent moves was Minneapolis and Indianapolis...both of which have their arenas and stadiums right downtown.Quote:
Originally Posted by YODA
I lived downtown Minneapolis, and I had the Metrodrome on one side, and the Target center on the other.
In Indy, we have Conseco and the RCA Dome right downtown...and the new Lucas Oil Stadium is being built right down the street from both of those.
Restaurants and a mall surround those places in both cities.
When it comes to decisions by SA government officials generally ultimately look to the money that goes under the table, the contracts, the land sale, etc.. That's what the decision revloves around, not public interest.
Don't know about some of those, but LOL at Ray Jay. I live in Tampa...Ray Jay is in the fucking 'hood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Holly
Dude, the Verizon Center is in downtown DC in an upscale business district, and the Capital Centre/US Airways Arena used to be in Landover, MD on Central Ave. Landover was and still is a fucking 'hood! :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by SenorSpur
I'm no D.C. expert (paging Shoog), but when I was there about a year-and-a-half ago, I was walking through D.C. with a few friends and we stumbled upon the Verizon Center. I don't remember feeling apprehensive about the area much.Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorSpur
I don't remember it being the best place (probably because there was nothing going on -- it was during the 2006 WCSF), but I felt about the same as I do walking downtown here.
If we win another title in a couple years... we are getting a new arena anyways .... from what I have learned, SBC center is already out of date... and well. It's ugly as crap on the inside to me anyways.
Take it down, rebuild closer to downtown and not in the ghetto that seems to control most of SA.
There's so much fail in that statement, it's not even funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutalis
"The ghetto that seems to control most of SA"?
"A new arena"?
VC or the Alamodome parking lot would have been fine locations -- the city dropped the ball, plain and simple.
The only way the AT&T center is going to really improve is to get rid of the industiral guantlet that now has to be run to get to it from I-35, but no plan I've seen even tries to take that into consideration.
Give it some time. Cities don't change overnight. It's been 4-5 years since the opening of the SBC Center. I applaud the location. Why build up an area of town, that's already built up. San Antonio is a city which is spread out. I think the reason it wasn't built on the southern side of downtown was the emergence of the Toyota Plant. I think, 10 years from now (If the Spurs are still in the SBC) the enviroment around the SBC will be entirely different. I wonder if this writer also assumed Iraq would be a thriving democracy after 7 years? Point is, there are many factors which are not taken into consideration. I believe the article does make a valid arguement, but I disagree with the pessemistic attitude. Where has the patience in society gone to? Everything is "I want it now." You know what happens when you do that. You get the Alamodome.
University of Phoenix Stadium in Glendale is a ghetto?
That would be news to alot of people in Phoenix as the area has absolutely be redeveloped, new homes, businesses.
Across the street from the stadium and hockey arena are a BUNCH of new businesses along with a cabelas.
Glendale isn't ghetto what so ever.
Why doesn't the county just offer tax incentive plans to some businesses to build down there?
I know it would be awesome to have a huge sports bar right there ALA Phoenix across from Chase Field.
Now THATS fun.
Wasn't the rodeo in the same spot as the AT&T center? If those drunk rednecks leaving the rodeo didn't get a tattoo or spend any money on the east side why would any drunk redneck spur fans? You can talk negative about San Antonio all you want but at the end, all your going to do is Piss off Buddy Holly! and he may show up at a ST gtg with an AK47 :lmao
I just noticed Arco Arena also on there :lol
Arco Arena is like out in the middle of a damn cow pasture.
its way out on I 5 away from downtown.
Way worse than ATT.
Man, I don't know whether to laugh at half the posters in this thread or to cry because of how much people fail.
FWDT lays out WHY the arena wasn't built downtown and a few posters later we have people saying they don't understand why the arena wasn't built downtown. Try reading?
Then we have posters saying if we win another championship that they will build the Spurs a new arena. W T F? Ever heard of a lease? I'm not voting for a new arena for a very long time, regardless of championships.
What development is supposed to occur in a residential neighborhood? There's no reason to invest money there.
My father and I almost got mugged at the Alamodome once. Boat show, not a Spurs game though.
I loved going downtown to hang out before and after Spurs games. That's probably one reason I like the Toros so much -- I get to recreate that experience on a smaller scale. Thank goodness they don't play out in the Travis County Expo Center or some such rot. That's probably the biggest reason I've never seen an Ice Bats game -- I just noticed they are moving to a skating center in north Austin just off I-35.
The American Airlines Center isn't in the ghetto anymore. I remember when it first opened there was an old factory that was a huge eye sore, but now there are very nice looking hotels and condos going up. The West End is also within walking distance since most of the parking is over that direction anywaysQuote:
Originally Posted by TampaDude
I was there spring in 06 and I don't remember it being ghetto, there was nothing really do to though. ESPN zone was the only resteraunt and it was an hour wait, it was all just normal business nothing to do pregame. That arena sucks to, there are no signs or people to help you find your way around. We sat on the 200 level and there is 1 staircase going up to it and we walked about the arena twice before we found it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorSpur
They are actually asking for more money to upgrade it. There's no plans for a new arena anytime in the near future (with or without more championships).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutalis
What does that mean? (I'm not being sarcastic, I want to know what you meant.)Quote:
Take it down, rebuild closer to downtown and not in the ghetto that seems to control most of SA.
Maybe he meant it not in the sense that the majority of San Antonio is ghetto, but what we present to outsiders is ghetto.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
For instance, when the Saints were here didn't they hold practice a few times at SAISD Football Fields located on the campus of Burbank High School?
Come on now, that is amature to the max.
One of the largest and growing cities in America and the NFL comes here and we put them to practice on the campus of an inncer city, underachieving school?
Just seems bad.
But back to basketball and the ATT center, sure, there is neighborhoods around it and no room to grow. Didnt we know going into this deal that either
A- Neighborhoods stay next to the arena like it is now and nothing happens or develops there.
or
B- city/developers must buy out the neighborhoods, tear them down, then build restuants, shops, etc to develop the area around ATT center.
There was a major lawsuit to stop the demolition of Victoria Courts against the City of San Antonio, The San Antonio Housing Authority and The Department of Housing and Urban Development, which led to the continuation of the Hope VI program (residential units) there onsite instead of an arena or hotels, etc. This was all going on during that time. There was more to it than just Howard Peak having a bad plan, honestly.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Not really. Peak definitely tried to play a stronger hand than he had. The original plan didn't even involve the Victoria Courts but the Alamodome parking lot. They just fucked it up and the County did not.
Yes, I understand that, but the political pressure put on him and the Spurs about replacing poor peoples homes with an arena played a huge hand in this. Litigation in the case went thru to 2001.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
My guess is that the land owners just outside the arena are waiting for more of a windfall than anybody is offering.
At this point, if you want development, the county or city should try to step in with eminent domain. I'm sure the land owners would howl, but I'm also sure that something would finally happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
They have a pill for that. just a heads up! :toast
The Verizon (nee MCI) Center is located right next to Chinatown (I will skip the obvious about Blaze stumbling upon it with his friends). USArena (nee Captial Centre) was located in Landover, MD.
I suspect by most people's definition, every place in DC is "ghetto" except for 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
That and the Old Ebbitt Grill. Everywhere else in DC is ghetto... :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by ShoogarBear
We were at the Kalorama last year, it was frickin kewl
Sort of like, why did they build it in a lesser business district to begin with? Why not somewhere more popular or fan friendly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
Well, out definitions of "ghetto" and "hood" are on two different wave lengths.Quote:
Originally Posted by TampaDude
Ok, swap it out with the Target Center.
Dude, the arena was built on the east side. And dude, it's at&t center.Quote:
Originally Posted by remingtonbo2001
Did you even read the purpose of that list?Quote:
Originally Posted by T Park
Did you happen to attend an underachieving, inner city school? One comes to that conclusion with said grammar and spelling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdot.HIM.not
Anyway, the Saints practiced in the Alamodome, it was only because of an NCAA event scheduled a year prior to Katrina which forced them to vacate the Alamodome. The Saints wanted a place as close to their downtown HQ to practice which is why they went to Burbank.
as much as I hate saying this since i hate the lakers
the staples center location is exactly where it should be , in downtown L.A. with mass transit in place (for a city that is horrible in mass transit like L.A.) they put it in the city center. where it should be and its beautiful, revives downtown.
The Nokia Theatre opened this month next door and now you have a great vibe in that area, and many bars are now opening, resturants and its really bringing life back to downtown l.a. Lots of people are going early to eat before the game, etc.
The downtown SA area, has mass transit going in and out and well the alamodome, it was cool and the places to hang in downtown SA was really cool.
The extra $$$$ from other businesses in downtown after and before a spurs game would of brought much more millions in sales tax alone to the city indirectly per season.
Right now, people go home after a spurs game spending not a penny more before or after a game. I think indirectly they just lose more money but perhaps the spurs gain more money by fans spending all their cash at the SBC. LOL
FedEx Field is in the middle of the hood too and is a perfect example of poor planning. It's a huge stadium with absolutely no commercial development around it. But, is still successful because of the enormous popularity of the Redskins. I used to live in Northern Virginia so I'm familiar with the area.Quote:
Originally Posted by TampaDude
Should have built it in the blossom area where they were considering. Most people that go to the games live closer to that area anyway
When Parcells had the Cowboys in SA, he had them practice outdoors at the SAISD complex at Burbank as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Holly
Why do you think the Spurs moved the game time to 7:00 last year to try to make sure people had to eat at the AT&T Center. Well, it did not work. People kept their usual plans and just came late.Quote:
Originally Posted by picnroll
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorSpur
Except I know one year during the play-offs, it was fiesta and a team decided to move out to La Cantera and bus all the way from there.
:huhQuote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Holly
i believe for interested parties there are revitalization programs available around that area..not sure exactly where or how far from the ATT.. but there are business incentives available
:wtf You think FedEx is in the middle of the hood? Landover Mall is "absolutely no commercial development"?Quote:
Originally Posted by bresilhac
:lmao Good thing you were in Northern Virginia, then.
That area has improved since the '80s and '90s, for sure...when the Capital Centre/US Airways Arena was there back in the day, that was the 'hood...just like the Addison Road/District Heights area nearby.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoogarBear
Should have been put right next to the Alamodome. A branch of the Riverwalk should have been developed to lead right up to both stadiums. Could have torn down the homes between Cherry and Hackberry for parking behind the stadiums and removed a portion of that drug infested neighborhhood.
To be honest I enjoyed going to the games more at the Alamodome; could grab a bite to eat beforehand or hit a sports bar after the game on the river. I have yet to stop off after a game since they have moved in to current location.
I hate to think of the impression out of towners get when they go back down Houston Street back to downtown. Do the cops at least clear out the dealers and street trash after a game or is all that visible ?