Flashback: The Rebounding Problem

Last year during the regular season when the Spurs were struggling, rebounding was perhaps the biggest culprit. The team just couldn't rebound as well as other Spurs teams had rebounded.

When the playoffs came around, the Spurs turned it around and actually rebounded really well in the playoffs. Denver is a good rebounding team and the Spurs were right there with them on the boards. Utah is a very good rebounding team and the Spurs didn't allow the Jazz to exploit that advantage. Cleveland was, IIRC, the best rebounding team last year and the Spurs easily handled them on the boards.

That job of rebounding (no pun intended) in the playoffs made all of Spurs Nation forget about the rebounding trouble the Spurs had all last year in the regular season. The problem originally surfaced against the Kings in the 2006 playoffs and then got worse against the Mavs in the next round.

Tonight, the Rockets reminded us that the Spurs can be beaten strictly due to not being able to grab a board. My question is whether the Spurs actually have a rebounding problem.

The possible answers I can think of are:

1) The Spurs only struggle rebounding when they aren't giving their full effort. In the playoffs the effort level changes and the Spurs suddenly can rebound with anyone.

2) The Spurs struggle dealing with perimeter players who can rebound. Players like Bonzi Wells and Josh Howard can torture the Spurs on the boards because none of the Spurs' swingmen are that great of rebounders. Against teams that rebound mostly with their bigmen, the Spurs are fine.

3) The Spurs are a poor rebounding team. Last playoffs, the Spurs were lucky they didn't face a team that could take advantage of that weakness.

4) This Rockets game was a fluke. I expect the Spurs to rebound like they did in the playoffs last year.

I'm not sure which answer I believe at the moment.

Opinions?

3 is either totally off base or worded wrong based on the second paragraph.

Udoka is a good rebounder for his size but right now he won't get that much playing time

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Originally Posted by leemajors

3 is either totally off base or worded wrong based on the second paragraph.

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Well, if the Spurs were just much more talented than the Nuggets, Jazz and Cavs, their rebounding propensity wouldn't really come into play. One could argue that the only great team the Spurs played in the playoffs last year were the Suns ... and the Suns are a horrible rebounding team.

If the Spurs face a great team in the playoffs that can rebound, would rebounding again show itself as being a weakness of this Spurs team?

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Originally Posted by timvp

Well, if the Spurs were just much more talented than the Nuggets, Jazz and Cavs, their rebounding propensity wouldn't really come into play. One could argue that the only great team the Spurs played in the playoffs last year were the Suns ... and the Suns are a horrible rebounding team.

If the Spurs face a great team in the playoffs that can rebound, would rebounding again show itself as being a weakness of this Spurs team?

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that cleared it up quite well. we'll just have to hope the spurs peak at the right time again.

We are a mediocre rebounding team. During the playoffs we did rebound better.

The good rebounding perimeter players we faced were Marion and Lebron; both are SF, which maybe makes it easier on us because we have bruce to help out on boxing them out.

But, if the other team has a sg who can really rebound, like Bonzi, then it looks like they wreak havok. I'm not sure we really have an answer to that, other than Udoka or hoping our bigs make up for it.

Bowen is below average in rebounding. Manu has great rebounding games on occasion, but is not even a good rebounder usually. Similarly Parker.

Duncan is great but he can't do it all himself.

Yeah, rebounding for this team is something to really think about. Part of the team d is to bet back on transition, which means you miss out on some offensive rebounding. Well, we need to do a better job on the defensive rebounding then, because otherwise the other team is getting 10+ more shots than us...

Rebounding is about effort and positioning, both of which the Spurs left in SA tonight. No secret why they got bombed on the boards, just like game 3 in Utah last year. If you fail to show up then pretty much every stat is going to look bad.

timvp, I think it's mostly #1. Seriously, I remember last year Utah did a similar number on us, just beat us up early in the year.

Two things for sure that are "mostly" effort in basketball: rebounding and defense.

Yeah, there is some technique and stuff, but those two things are mostly effort. Who wants it more badly, etc.

Depending what word you want to use, we are "experienced", "a veteran team", "old farts"... either way, we know that if we try to lead the league from begining to end in something like defense and rebounding, we will have half our team on the injured list, hobbling with nagging injuries or just physically drained by the playoffs. Mavs last year = Exhibit A.

We need to pace ourselved because the one thing for sure we know that can derail us really fast from repeating is a hobbling team. And let's face it, once you reach a certain age (which a lot of our guys have) the probability of injury begins to rise. Counter that with pacing yourself by using your depth and not killing yourself for rebounds before Thanksgiving and you give yourself a chance of being healthy when it matters.

#2, more or less.

2. Bonzi was everywhere. Nobody was near the guy, Duncan was busy covering Yao, and he was just all over the place.

Weren't Cavs a great rebounding team? They didn't take advantage of that, timvp's right.

I'd go with 1. Looking at tonights game, there were lots of boards that were with in arms reach. Only there was no reaching. It was just one of those nights were the ball just bounced the Rockets way all night.

We just don't have the athlets on wings to rebound.
Gino, Bruce, Tony, Barry - where is the strenght?

Simple about the playoffs - the rebound were the attention what their doing and, well if they can turn around in this year playoffs that will be goog but you never know.
Too early to say.

So I think there is a bit of every point that timvp put here.

I'd say #2, with a smattering of bounce of the ball. As you point out, Bonzi and J Ho regularly do us like this, but few other players or teams do (how about Josh Smith or Gerald Wallace, for eg?).

There isn't one good rebounder amongst our smalls, except Manu when he decides to be (like last playoffs when he averaged over 5 boards a game and I remember stretches where he'd pull down 3 or 4 in a couple of minutes and change the game).

Was it also an artefact of the defence we were playing (double-teaming leads to open men on the O boards)?

Anyway, we need to find a solution for it just in case we meet these guys in the playoffs, but I'm not too worried by it unless it becomes a pattern.

(Just to be picky, is Bonzi really a 2? I think he's a 3, T-Mac is the 2, and Head is his backup.)

Timmy hitting more shots would help the cause.

1 & 2.... I sense that Udoka is a pretty good rebouner. Hopefully his PT will increase as the season goes on.

I think its #2...

The Spurs DO read scouting reports. They know which players on opposing teams have a penchant for rebounding. For the Rockets that would be Hayes, Wells, Yao, among others.

Rebounding is more about positioning, effort, and desire. One of the big problems I see is the lack of rebounding fundamentals - particularly from the wings.

I rarely see a Spur player actually seek out an opposing player and put a body on him when a shot goes up. This isn't an issue that just cropped up against Houston last night. This has been an issue with the Spurs for a couple of seasons now. They've simply managed to overcome it in other areas.

Udoka is supposed to be decent rebounder for his position. I did see him routinely work his way to the glass in his short stint on the floor. I was diappointed that Pop didn't give him more time.

The Spurs are never going to be a good offensive rebounding team because their defensive philosophy dictates them getting back to stop transition opportunities. The bottom line is the bigs and the wings MUST exert more effort on the defensive glass. There's no excuse in allowing the opposition so many offensive rebounds. They need to concentrate on limiting opponents to one shot only.

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Originally Posted by ArgFan

SCOLA!!!
SCOLA is reasons SPURS THE LOSE!!! You will feel die when SCOLA runs over your SPURS!!!!

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Or something like that. chalk it up to a bad game on the boards on our part

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Originally Posted by rasho8

Or something like that. chalk it up to a bad game on the boards on our part

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scola did shit against spurs last night

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Originally Posted by ducks

scola did shit against spurs last night

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Did he?

I did not watched the game?

Is he gonna be suspended?

I did watch Bonzi last night. He was always about 4-5 feet away from the bucket. He played like Dennis Rodman last night. He was watching the ball for rebounds just like Rodman used to do. Although Bonzi isn't as tall as Rodman, his positioning for rebounding was excellant.

for me it's the first choice !

i remember this subject coming back regularly last season, and especially after all star break ...

but it is always the same....

as stated before, rebounding is effort and desire mainly. Playoffs times will as usual offer a major change in the mentality of our team...

ah, the long regular season...
xap'

Now I didn't see last nights game but these are just some general comments.

Rebounding has for a long time been the big elephant in the room that no-one talks about. Tell me, when the Spurs match-up against a strong post team, who on the Spurs is a good rebounder, outside of TD?

I've been concerned about Houston for two years because for the past two years Houston has gotten bigger with Battier, and better at rebounding, with Bonzi Wells.

Those two players don't concern me by themselves but on the Rockets, they play directly into one of the Spurs' biggest weaknesses.

The Spurs in that time lost Rasho, our best Yao defender and 2nd best rebounder, and Nazr (no big deal). Now I imagine, TD has to guard Yao (until Mahinmi can, maybe next year), or Elson (ugh) or Oberto (too slow).

I imagine Oberto can use his "smarts" to out-position Yao but there's NO WAY he can out jump him for a board.

It is my belief that we lost to the mavs in 06 mainly because of rebounding.

Bottom line = Houston does not = elite team in the West but they will ALWAYS out rebound the Spurs. The Spurs can only get away with that by nailing 3 after 3 after 3. If the outside shot isn't falling, watch out.

I think Houston is 2nd tier because of consistency, health, and team-play. But they will always be a danger if they can put it together.

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Originally Posted by timvp

2) The Spurs struggle dealing with perimeter players who can rebound. Players like Bonzi Wells and Josh Howard can torture the Spurs on the boards because none of the Spurs' swingmen are that great of rebounders. Against teams that rebound mostly with their bigmen, the Spurs are fine.

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This.

Hopefully Udoka can ameliorate the problem, but there's no ignoring how Howard and Bonzi in 06 destroyed us. Fortunately Sacto was weak other than Wells that year, but of course Dallas knocked us off.

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Originally Posted by Lebowski Brickowski

I think Houston is 2nd tier because of consistency, health, and team-play. But they will always be a danger if they can put it together.

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They'll be first tier this year. Health may be an issue, but their real weakness is in point play.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Body

They'll be first tier this year. Health may be an issue, but their real weakness is in point play.

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Then we better find a way to box out.

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Originally Posted by Lebowski Brickowski

Now I didn't see last nights game but these are just some general comments.

Rebounding has for a long time been the big elephant in the room that no-one talks about. Tell me, when the Spurs match-up against a strong post team, who on the Spurs is a good rebounder, outside of TD?

I've been concerned about Houston for two years because for the past two years Houston has gotten bigger with Battier, and better at rebounding, with Bonzi Wells.

Those two players don't concern me by themselves but on the Rockets, they play directly into one of the Spurs' biggest weaknesses.

The Spurs in that time lost Rasho, our best Yao defender and 2nd best rebounder, and Nazr (no big deal). Now I imagine, TD has to guard Yao (until Mahinmi can, maybe next year), or Elson (ugh) or Oberto (too slow).

I imagine Oberto can use his "smarts" to out-position Yao but there's NO WAY he can out jump him for a board.

It is my belief that we lost to the mavs in 06 mainly because of rebounding.

Bottom line = Houston does not = elite team in the West but they will ALWAYS out rebound the Spurs. The Spurs can only get away with that by nailing 3 after 3 after 3. If the outside shot isn't falling, watch out.

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Good post! :toast I think Elson did a fairly effective job last night on Yao, moreso then Oberto, at least for last night.

and the rockets hit 6 more 3 pt fg then the Spurs and out-rebounded us 55 to 28, killed us on the offensive boards 25 to 4. Despite this and playing at home the rockets only won by 8. It's early in the season and I think they'll start to play better.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Body

They'll be first tier this year. Health may be an issue, but their real weakness is in point play.

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They've been first tier for some time now, how can you not be with Yao and McGrady. However they perennially underachieve and underwhelm year in year out for whatever reason.

The Spurs got out hustled. Nobody on the team really gave effort on rebounding. That and guys like Wells and Hayes kept sneaking in for offensive rebounds.

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Originally Posted by ducks

scola did shit against spurs last night

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shit would actually be something...

Today is a new day with ( hopefully) no missed rebounds in it.

5) CIA. It's a TRAP!

Spurs have traditionally had trouble with tall, strong teams like Houston. From Yao on down, they're bigger and stronger than we are (except for Alston). This gives them a big advantage on the boards. I was worried about this last year, but somehow we found a way to deal with it. Perhaps it was as Timvp said, they just cranked up the effort in the postseason and got it done.
Anyway, now Pop has his early loss and can be happy he can rag on the boys about it for a while.
I did watch the game last night, and Rockets simply manhandled us inside. From rebounding to Yao's putbacks and their ability (Yao and others) to deflect Tim from his usual strong inside game, they put the beef on us and we folded. Also Tim needs to f--ing stop thinking he's playing against the refs: quit throwing up weak shit and begging for a call, Tim. That's what he did most of the first half, and why he was so ineffective.

In all honestly though, I'd say its a good mixture of 1 and 2 with a tidbit of 3.

These Spurs obviously know how to kick things up to another level. For some reason, they were unable to do so last night, to the point where the game got downright embarassing on the boards. I dont think the Spurs have had to use that gear since the Finals last year, and even then it wasn't really tested. After 6 months and two easy first games, they couldn't summon it back when they needed it.

It's a new season, and this is a November-squad that is admittedly in coast mode right now. So I don't expect these rebounding statistics now to resemble those at the end of the season.

However, I think you're right about the Spurs having weak rebounders on the perimeter. Really, even the front line isn't that beefed up for the boards. Outside of Tim, nobody has a real nose for rebounds (Elson, Horry, and Oberto all have their specialties...but rebounding isnt one of them) and I also think the Spurs gradual tendency to increase the pace of their running game has also hurt them in this regard.

You can expect a few bad bounces to go the other teams way. But when the other team has grabbed 20 fucking offensive boards, someone needs to stop breaking out and start boxing out.

Last year, Pop seemed to shift the teams focus more towards team rebounding as the season progressed. I wasn't able to watch last night, but it didn't sound like there was much of that happening.

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Originally Posted by alamo50

Timmy hitting more shots would help the cause.

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We get outrebounded by 27 and only lose by 8 while TD is 5-15 and most of his shots weren't even good ones. Yao owned him defensively tonight.

You can put this one on TD.

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Originally Posted by Demo Dick Marcinko

They've been first tier for some time now, how can you not be with Yao and McGrady. However they perennially underachieve and underwhelm year in year out for whatever reason.

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One Name comes to mind.

JVG

I think the biggest problem is effort, though I agree that the Spurs have struggled with people like Wells against our wings.

From watching last night - there were too many tap-outs to Rockets (problem #1) and there were too many people watching the ball instead of hustling after it. There was no effort to get there and get the ball. It was like if it wasn't coming directly to them, they didn't see the point. There was an overall concession to the Rockets in rebounding. They can't be so courteous.

I expect it is something that will continue to frustrate us for awhile, but will be a negligible factor come April. I don't think they'll be the bestest rebounding ever! but I think they'll get the job done.

Even with the disgusting show on the boards, the game was winnable had a modicum of effort been put forth. Shots were way off, hustle and energy were down. If the ball movement had been better, if ft's had been hit, if they capitalized on the copious amount of Rockets turnovers, we could have won depsite the shit performance on the boards. Ugh. If some minimum of effort had been extended, then I don't think the Rockets would have had all the offensive rebounds they had. I still think the disparity would have existed, but I thought effort was the biggest contributing factor, not ability.

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Originally Posted by Lebowski Brickowski

Now I didn't see last nights game but these are just some general comments.

Rebounding has for a long time been the big elephant in the room that no-one talks about. Tell me, when the Spurs match-up against a strong post team, who on the Spurs is a good rebounder, outside of TD?

I've been concerned about Houston for two years because for the past two years Houston has gotten bigger with Battier, and better at rebounding, with Bonzi Wells.

Those two players don't concern me by themselves but on the Rockets, they play directly into one of the Spurs' biggest weaknesses.

The Spurs in that time lost Rasho, our best Yao defender and 2nd best rebounder, and Nazr (no big deal). Now I imagine, TD has to guard Yao (until Mahinmi can, maybe next year), or Elson (ugh) or Oberto (too slow).

I imagine Oberto can use his "smarts" to out-position Yao but there's NO WAY he can out jump him for a board.

It is my belief that we lost to the mavs in 06 mainly because of rebounding.

Bottom line = Houston does not = elite team in the West but they will ALWAYS out rebound the Spurs. The Spurs can only get away with that by nailing 3 after 3 after 3. If the outside shot isn't falling, watch out.

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Very good post! Great points made on all levels!

Like yourself, many of us fans have watched and known about their rebounding deficiencies for about 2 years. It was especially noticeable during the Sacto and Dallas playoff series from 2006. I said it then that I believed the Mavs series was lost because they simply outrebounded (and shot better) than the Spurs in all 7 games!

The FO made the decision to move away from the "plodding, bulky" 5-men to a more mobile version of the position in Elson and Oberto. We just won the championship so something fell right.

However, the rebounding woes still exist. The game against Houston only exposed what many of us have known for some time - the Spurs are simply not a good rebounding team. They defend superbly, but are terrible at boxing out and allowing second chance points. Perhaps this is where the age at the wing positions shows up most.

If I were Pop I would want to see more of Udoka/Bowen combo against an opponent with strong, active wing players like Hou/Dal/Utah/GS. Maybe Pop should also look at giving Ian some time against such an opponent where our bigs are overmatched. I'm not sure what the right solution is.

Given the events of last night, what do you think Avery and the Mavs are thinking about as the Mavs prepare to face off with the Spurs on next week?

#1

If Pop makes it a point of emphasis, the team as a whole picks it up a notch.

Same thing with fast break defense vs. the Suns, etc....

For what its worth. Even though Udoka was off defensively last night regarding rotations. I liked what I saw from him when he bodied up Bonzi during his time on court.

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Originally Posted by SenorSpur

Maybe Pop should also look at giving Ian some time against such an opponent where our bigs are overmatched. I'm not sure what the right solution is.

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I don't think that is the right solution at this point. It's just 6 more fouls. I seriously doubt Ian is going to interfere with Yao much this year.

a little too much being made of 'only losing by 8' in my opinion.

It wasn't as close as that, the only reason it was 8 in the final tally is because the Rockets slacked off and gave the Spurs easy opportunities to score once the game was clearly out of reach.

You are right, Senior, about our wings, I think. Also that "something 'fell' right" last season.

I really think the only way to make up for bad rebounding is to hit the 3. The Spurs relied on the 3 ball last year more than any other. It scared the hell out of me then, but they got away with it because they were hot when they needed to be.

I think that's how we're going to roll this year too: by hiding the rebounding woes with strong shooting from Manu, Finley, Barry, and (hopefully) Parker and (maybe) Udoka. I sure hope it's enough.

I also think Pop is aware of the rebounding probs, that's why he's wanted Derrick McKey to come out of retirement. :lol

Unfortunately, like you said, our wings aren't those types of wings.

I just don't see the Finley or Bowen turning into good rebounders.

Yao's getting better every year.
dallas can still rebound
Spurs can still shoot the 3.

Through the rest of Duncan's career the Spurs would be well served to find a rebounding big to play up front with TD. Not that I believe the lack of one is a fatal flaw.

The Spurs do seem to improve their rebounding disparity with opponents in the postseason. In the 2007 postseason it appears by glancing through the box scores that Manu, Horry, Finley, and Bowen each at times had games of 7+ boards. Oberto and Elson also had 6+ rebounding nights. I guess you can attribute some of that to playoff intensity or whatever. I think it has to do with the Spurs tightening up their defense and getting good spacing on offense. As much as the Spurs shoot the 3, with teams sagging on TD there is plenty of opportunity for 2nd chances.

#2.

Wings like Bonzi and Howard have always been a pain. Of course if our FG% was higher by making some of those chip shots then it probably wouldn't hae been an issue.

Bring back the Bruise Brothers!

though it would be nice to have some better rebounders at the wings, i dont think that was the main problem- its not like mike james and battier were the ones getting all the boards. it was really just yao and bonzi, and they were getting it done under the basket, not out at the elbows. so i dont think the problem is really the perimeter, rather a lack of personnel for yao/shaq (maybe we can begin to pencil in d. howard as well). i think those "super bigs" expose our frontcourt for what it is, duncan + limited role players. horry can change that but at his age we probably shouldnt rely on him to be the only solution.

that said, i think elson and oberto can do better than last night, and i think pop has to give udoka a chance on the bonzi / j. howard types.

i know after the dallas fiasco that many cant stand small ball, but i think that we have to explore that because our roster as is just cant match up with yao / shaq. if we're going to keep guys like bonner/finley/barry, who can play on only one side of the court, than we have to play to their strengths- ball movement, spacing, speed. i mean what does phoenix or LA (undersized doughnut teams, though la isnt as bad as phoenix) do when they play the rockets/heat? they run and tire them. we have to take advantage of yao / shaq 's poor conditioning and durability. play fast and physical. i think that is the best bet we have at this point.

I know folks will laugh or even scoff at this suggestion, but the rebounding woes was one of the main reasons I, personally, was hot on the Corey Maggette acquisition of last year.

I know folks will say he doesn't fit because he's not a prolific 3-ball shooter or that he doesn't play defense. However, the guy can and does rebound well for a swingman. Besides that, he can score from mid-range, get to the rim and is an excellent FT shooter.

Back to the present. As some have already stated, I see the rebounding deficiencies being exposed against teams with more athletic wing players who can board. For now, this will be a problem that the coaching staff will be challenged to cover up for the duration of the season and playoffs.

people, we cant win every catagory every night. Better free throws and a little better shooting by TD would make this game a "W" Lossing by 8 points is not bad. All u can ask is to give yourself a chance to win and they did that. Cant win them all..

i dont agree that its a problem of athletic wings. if that were the case, GS would outrebound us every game, and to my knowledge that doesnt happen. hell, every team would outrebound us since we have the least athletic perimeter personnel of the NBA. i think its more a problem of when their frontcourt forces us to do weird things- yao, shaq, and dirk do that to you (cant win position, forced to double, or forced to come out). thats when everyone else gets lost.

Spurs need that rebounding big next to TD pulling down 8 to 10 boards a night. We haven't had that since DRob left.

Thought it was pretty funny watching Dikembe and Yao on the floor together against TD and Elson..Cant rememeber that happening in a while with 4 seven footers going at it..

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Originally Posted by yavozerb

Thought it was pretty funny watching Dikembe and Yao on the floor together against TD and Elson..Cant rememeber that happening in a while with 4 seven footers going at it..

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That was as funny as it was awkward-looking.

Maybe Horry could've made a difference last night - not that he's a prolific rebounder, but he's smart so he'll put a body on a guy like Bonzi, and maybe even try to rough him up a bit.

Also, people mention the 3, we only shot 5 up until a few minutes to go, and ended up 3/8. That is not like the Spurs at all.

Finally, I didn't watch last night, but did watch the Grizzlies game and the Sacto game, and certainly against the Grizz Timmy was bringing weaksauce. Pau and Darko are decent defenders, but Tim was being out-muscled and out-positioned all night. As I commented last playoffs, strangely Tim isn't playing very smart - sometimes he drives against quicker guys and tries to out-muscle bigger guys, rather than the opposite. He has also totally lost his left hand (when he was younger he had a great left hand), doesn't use spin moves and power drop-steps enough, and hasn't pulled the banker out yet. All in all, WTF Timmy? I love the guy, and maybe he's waiting for later in the season to open up his bag of tricks, but sometimes I wonder whether he's finding it harder and harder to care now that he has 4 rings..? Nah, that's harsh, he cares, he just does some odd things for a very smart player.

#1 by a long shot. Spurs will give just enough effort to stay healthy and fresh, but still put themselves in good playoff position. They will not give you much more than that because they know it's all about the playoffs.

Spurs have been like this for the past 4 years and it's why I don't stress or watch a lot of the regular season.

Come playoff time this team is hardcore.

Definitely #1. Really, if Timmy's shot had been falling, we win that game. It's not a big deal. This is only the 4th game of the year, playing a quality division rival. This loss doesn't bother me one bit.

Bucks (41.5% FG / 15 OFF / 27 Def / 39 Tot Reb)
vs
Spurs (55.7% FG / 05 OFF / 37 Def / 42 Tot Reb)

While they out rebounded the bucks overall, the spurs again gave away a lot of offensive rebounds...

Is this really just a question of energy? Or did the differential come into play only after the bench (whose defense is less Spur-like) was cleared out?