Buck Harvey: Hard to deal? Kobe is not the exception (Manu Story)

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/c...n.34225c4.html

Another Manu love gathering story...

ATTENTION MANU CHURCH

Buck Harvey: Hard to deal? Kobe is not the exception

Web Posted: 11/12/2007 11:09 PM CST

Buck Harvey
San Antonio Express-News

Last summer, when ideas were bouncing around more than basketballs were, an NBA general manager in another city came to a conclusion. Now might be the best time to trade a 6-foot-6 star with three rings and a recognizable four-letter first name.

Yes, he said.

It would make sense to trade Manu Ginobili.

The Spurs never considered such a thing, and they had their reasons. For one, fans might have stormed the AT&T Center and burned it to the ground.

But even if the Spurs had wanted to trade Ginobili, would they have gotten equal value in return? Even if the Spurs had received players who were younger and could jump higher, would they have been able to duplicate what Ginobili has done for both the Spurs and their crowd?

The Lakers have their own answer to similar questions.

That's why Kobe Bryant will be in town tonight.

These two have rarely been lumped together, and one of the exceptions was last January. Then, after Ginobili blocked Bryant's shot at the end of a Spurs win, Bryant followed through with a blow to Ginobili's face.

Ginobili, as is customary, got a bruise. Bryant got a one-game suspension.

Otherwise, they have stood on the opposite ends of the NBA room. Ginobili, at half the price, has averaged about half as many points over his career. Ginobili also has played about a third of the NBA minutes, yet Ginobili, at about the same age, is the one who some think should be aging.

An ESPN columnist recently put Ginobili into a group he called the "All-Decline" team. "As a 30-year-old slasher," the ESPN columnist wrote, "we'd expect his numbers to go down."

That would be part of the trade logic of last summer. Given that Ginobili should be declining, he would never be more attractive to another team than he was then.

As predicted, Ginobili's numbers will likely go down — because they have rarely been as high as they've been the first two weeks of this season. Ginobili is currently the Spurs' leading scorer, and that underscores how balanced the Spurs have become. Tim Duncan is third.

Then there's the dunk Ginobili put on Yao Ming last week: The one making the "All-Decline" team that night was gravity.

Knowing Ginobili, he will eventually take a few shots to a thigh, and he will sag. His scoring will drop as he shares with Duncan and Tony Parker, and Ginobili won't always be as confident and efficient as he was Sunday. Then, he put 21 points on Milwaukee in 19 minutes.

Players who consistently score more points will beat him out for an All-Star berth. And, going by this pattern, there might be a few weeks in January or February when the Spurs will be wondering when Manu will be Manu again.

But if the pattern continues, Ginobili will begin to make plays that few in the league can make. In moments that matter, he will turn the corner on a pick-and-roll, draw a foul on defense, attack the rim, find an open teammate.

He also will make fools of everyone who measures players by their numbers. He's averaged only about 14 points a game over his NBA career, for example. But in just the fourth quarters of the last road games in each of the Phoenix, Utah and Cleveland series last season, he averaged about 15 points.

Who does this? Who in the history of the sport averages more in vital playoff fourth quarters than in entire games in the regular season?

Ray Allen? Shawn Marion? Josh Howard? Each made the West All-Star roster last season, and a few months later, they combined to win one playoff series.

So Ginobili isn't Bryant. Ginobili's place in the game is unique.

Still, these two are the same when it comes to a trade. Just as the Lakers hesitate to trade Bryant because they can't get equal value, the Spurs would face a similar dilemma. Assuming players such as LeBron James and Dwight Howard wouldn't be available, there's not a package of talent that could replace what they do on the floor and at the box office.

So when is the right time to trade them?

Never.

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Then there's the dunk Ginobili put on Yao Ming last week: The one making the "All-Decline" team that night was gravity.

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Classic! :lmao

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Originally Posted by urunobili

...But in just the fourth quarters of the last road games in each of the Phoenix, Utah and Cleveland series last season, he averaged about 15 points.

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Damn.

yeah... that fourth quarter stat made me say shit out loud.

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Originally Posted by urunobili

Who does this? Who in the history of the sport averages more in vital playoff fourth quarters than in entire games in the regular season?

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That's just ridiculous.

This more than anything shows what kind of player Manu is, and what he means to the team.

Clutch is an understatement here

Manu is the Argentinean god of Victory

averaging 15 pts in playoffs 4rd quartes last year just makes it more clear to me,that Manu is probably the clutchest player in NBA history.
like Shaq always sais about his FTs: I make them when they count. Manu does the same: he makes them when they count,but not only FTs, also layups, dunks, 3 pts shots, ect.

It's been so fun to see him back with such fire this season.
He is really our X factor.
With him playing out of his mind we're unbeatable.

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averaging 15 pts in playoffs 4rd quartes last year just makes it more clear to me,that Manu is probably the clutchest player in NBA history.

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:lol

Clutchest player in NBA history? We're reaching Jim Jones proportions with the Church of Manu.

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But in just the fourth quarters of the last road games in each of the Phoenix, Utah and Cleveland series last season, he averaged about 15 points.

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Holy Shit!!!! :wow

this weeks race to the mvp, manu is 17.
http://www.nba.com/features/player_rankings.html

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Originally Posted by Kermit

:lol

Clutchest player in NBA history? We're reaching Jim Jones proportions with the Church of Manu.

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ok them,give me 3 examples of clutch players in the playoffs with more tham 3 NBA titles.

I can only think of 2:
MJ
Big shot Bob
And that´s about it.

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Originally Posted by ArgSpursFan.

ok them,give me 3 examples of clutch players in the playoffs with more tham 3 NBA titles.

I can only think of 2:
MJ
Big shot Bob
And that´s about it.

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Tim Duncan?
Larry Bird?
Magic Johnson?

SO you need three championships in order to be clutch?
Jerry West - "Mr. Clutch" doesn't count then?

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But in just the fourth quarters of the last road games in each of the Phoenix, Utah and Cleveland series last season, he averaged about 15 points.

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it's not the best way to show Manu's clutch ability. A big part of these 15 points come from the line in the last minute when the other team foul Manu on purpose.

I love Manu and the 15 points per 4th quarter number is undoubtedly impressive.

But before we start crowning Manu as "the clutchest player ever" and such things, realize that it also encompasses only 3 quarters. During that time, Manu's scoring numbers came significantly from the free throw line -- he was 24-27 in the 4th quarters of those games (7-7 in Game 5 at PNX; 11-13 in Game 4 at UTH; and 6-7 in Game 4 in CLE). He did shoot the ball well from the floor (8-14 during those 3 quarters and 4-7 from the three point line), but the bulk of Manu's scoring in those quarters -- 24 of his 44 total points (15 in PNX, 16 in UTH, 13 in CLE) came from the stripe and some portion of those came in intentional foul situations late in those games.

I don't offer that to detract from Manu Ginobili's play during those games; getting it done on the road in playoff games is the truest measure of a champion and Manu undisputedly got it done. But I do think there has to be at least a small amount of perspective given to those numbers.

it would be more ammazing if manu could score more in the first 3 quarters then just his bulk always in the 4
his play in the 4 is great but his play in the 4 only counts for the w if his teamates can keep it close or ahead to that point

Fuck u Ducks.. U are such a Parker worshiper that everybody else doesn't matter. Recognize..

Without Manu, we won't have 3 Rings..

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Originally Posted by gilmor

Fuck u Ducks.. U are such a Parker worshiper that everybody else doesn't matter. Recognize..

Without Manu, we won't have 3 Rings..

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people said without david robinson they would suck to




I think you could replace manu or tp and spurs would win titles with duncan
with another player with same or close talent

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Originally Posted by gilmor

Fuck u Ducks.. U are such a Parker worshiper that everybody else doesn't matter. Recognize..

Without Manu, we won't have 3 Rings..

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without tp setting the tone early manu late points would be useless
w are what counts

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Originally Posted by ducks

without tp setting the tone early manu late points would be useless
w are what counts

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and without manu's late points, tonys early baskets are as good as wasted

your hatred of ginobili is astonishing

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Originally Posted by Tippecanoe

and without manu's late points, tonys early baskets are as good as wasted

your hatred of ginobili is astonishing

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what does this thread have to do with your team BOSTON?

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Originally Posted by ducks

what does this thread have to do with your team BOSTON?

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i believe i was making a valid argument that had nothing to do with my team, but everything to do with the spurs

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Originally Posted by Altromondo

this weeks race to the mvp, manu is 17.
http://www.nba.com/features/player_rankings.html

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Player rankings are a joke.. it just goes by how much you score, block, assist, etc. It doesn't talk about all the things the player does. Manu should be top 3 right now given how he is playing now.

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Originally Posted by Tippecanoe

and without manu's late points, tonys early baskets are as good as wasted

your hatred of ginobili is astonishing

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My first post said what he did was amazing
it said had he scored all game long in the first 3 quarters then it would be more amazzing it was not a knock on him

I don't know about the clutchest player in NBA history as I've seen other many players being as clutch as it gets when it counts (watch out for Tracy McGrady for instance).

What is true is the way Manu plays the 4th quarters regardless of how many points he scores. He just kills the opponent when they are fatigued. He slashed them going into the paint and take hits like a man. He's very smart on finding the right spot, giving the right pass, or getting fouled while attempting a 3-pointer. It's basketball IQ and knowledge. He seems to have an uncanny sharpness when it comes to clutch time that allows him to see clearer than the rest. There's another player capable of doing this in this league and he is Chauncey Billups.

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Originally Posted by duncan228

It's been so fun to see him back with such fire this season.
He is really our X factor.
With him playing out of his mind we're unbeatable.

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then why do the spurs have one loss?

wow all the Manu lovers here should take it down a notch! Clutchest player ever?? are you insane??

Come on now, lets be real. Manu is clutch no doubt, but far from being the best player ever under pressure.

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wow all the Manu lovers here should take it down a notch! Clutchest player ever?? are you insane??

Come on now, lets be real. Manu is clutch no doubt, but far from being the best player ever under pressure.

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Now, now. It's widely known that Manu is the clutchiest player in the history of the universe. He's Reggie Miller, Robert Horry and Michael Jordan all rolled into one. Why, just look at the way he avoids fouling the shooter in a game 7 situation. Now that's clutch.

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Originally Posted by Kermit

Now, now. It's widely known that Manu is the chultchiest player in the history of the universe. He's Reggie Miller, Robert Horry and Michael Jordan all rolled into one. Why, just look at the way he avoids fouling the shooter in a game 7 situation. Now that's clutch.

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OMG!! Intruder Alert!! Intruder Alert!! Intruder Alert!!

Manu is on Fire, Bitch

Manu is a winner, like Joe Montana, he just wins.

Balls of steelz, no doubt.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

it's not the best way to show Manu's clutch ability. A big part of these 15 points come from the line in the last minute when the other team foul Manu on purpose.

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true,but maybe that´s the only way to spot him in the 4rd quaters, by sending him to the line and hope he misses,don't you think?

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Originally Posted by Kermit

Now, now. It's widely known that Manu is the clutchiest player in the history of the universe. He's Reggie Miller, Robert Horry and Michael Jordan all rolled into one. Why, just look at the way he avoids fouling the shooter in a game 7 situation. Now that's clutch.

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Reggie may be clutch, but never took his team to even one championship,so I wouldn't put him in the same category.

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Originally Posted by ducks

then why do the spurs have one loss?

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wanted to hype up the ROckets a lil bit more even after giving up Scola... believe me... it's part of a long term plan.. remember we lost the whole series against the Cavs last year? you have to make them believe a lil bit man... :dizzy

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Originally Posted by ArgSpursFan.

Reggie may be clutch, but never took his team to even one championship,so I wouldn't put him in the same category.

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Really? That's what you're going with? Because Rick Smits is in the same category as Tim Duncan, right? Mark Jackson as Tony Parker? But no, it's Reggie's fault that he didn't win a championship, especially when he had all of those easy Chicago teams to go against every year.

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Originally Posted by Kermit

Really? That's what you're going with? Because Rick Smits is in the same category as Tim Duncan, right? Mark Jackson as Tony Parker? But no, it's Reggie's fault that he didn't win a championship, especially when he had all of those easy Chicago teams to go against every year.

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If I´m not mistaken Mark Jackson didn't win a championship eather,did he?
Going back to reggie,It´s not his fault that he had to face the Bulls back on the 90's, but if your gonna include all the great players that never won any championships,them the list will be longer thought.

My point is :manu was clutch in many playoff games,even the NBA Finals,and that´s why Reggie would´t go in that category, coze He never won a 7 series NBA final.

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My point is :manu was clutch in many playoff games,even the NBA Finals,and that´s why Reggie would´t go in that category, coze He never won a 7 series NBA final.

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Jesus Christ! Did you even see Reggie play? My advice to you, YouTube ReggieMillerNewYorkKnicks and enjoy.

And you realize the only reason Manu's in the Finals is because of Tim, right? Or do you believe that Manu the all powerful could fart his way their with two groupies and five flying monkeys?

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Originally Posted by Kermit

Jesus Christ! Did you even see Reggie play? My advice to you, YouTube ReggieMillerNewYorkKnicks and enjoy.

And you realize the only reason Manu's in the Finals is because of Tim, right? Or do you believe that Manu the all powerful could fart his way their with two groupies and five flying monkeys?

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I did watch Reggie vs the knicks and His talking to all the front seats people at the Madison Square Garden, but I also watched Manu beat the hell out of the Phoenix Suns in the WCFs in 2005 and the Detroit Pistons in the Finals.

BTW,I have seen Manu win championships without Timmy,in Athems to more acurate.

And we all know that Manu won that gold medal by himself as well.

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Originally Posted by Kermit

And we all know that Manu won that gold medal by himself as well.

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of course not,But He was the Main man in that team.So He can't be underrated for winning the Gold medal like he is for winning NBA championships.

Who the hell is underrating Manu? We have people on this site declaring him the MVP already two weeks into the season. He's been declared the "clutchest" player ever to breath air by none other than yourself. Remind me who's underrating him again?

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Originally Posted by Kermit

Who the hell is underrating Manu? We have people on this site declaring him the MVP already two weeks into the season. He's been declared the "clutchest" player ever to breath air by none other than yourself. Remind me who's underrating him again?

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you were the one who said that Manu just won something thanx to Duncan,and you also said that Poor Reggie didn't have the same luck to win a championship.
That's why I brought up Athens to your attention,that's all.

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you were the one who said that Manu just won something thanx to Duncan

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Are you really that dense to not see that Manu minus Tim equals ZERO NBA championships? Has the church corrupted your mind in ways that David Koresh can only dream of? Can't you see that Reggie with a player of Duncan's caliber would've been a Finals contender every year in the period after Jordan retired?

:pctoss

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Originally Posted by Kermit

Are you really that dense to not see that Manu minus Tim equals ZERO NBA championships? Has the church corrupted your mind in ways that David Koresh can only dream of? Can't you see that Reggie with a player of Duncan's caliber would've been a Finals contender every year in the period after Jordan retired?

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Blah...the Jordan excuse again. Reggie had his chance to be a champion when Michael was playing in '98.

Jordan didn't keep the Pacers from advancing to the Finals. He had one of his worst shooting games ever in that Game 7 to be honest. Reggie turned into Houdini and disappeared in the 2nd half and let his team down. He took one shot in the 2nd half of Game 7 and it was a freakin airball :lol

That game went down to the final seconds and if Reggie was just a little more aggressive offensively perhaps the Pacers could have beaten the Bulls in that series. I know one thing for damn sure...you would never see Ginobili disappear like that in a big game.

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Originally Posted by SpurOutofTownFan

I don't know about the clutchest player in NBA history as I've seen other many players being as clutch as it gets when it counts (watch out for Tracy McGrady for instance).

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LMAO McGrady has not even won 1 playoff series. when it counts is in the playoffs

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Originally Posted by Kermit

Are you really that dense to not see that Manu minus Tim equals ZERO NBA championships? Has the church corrupted your mind in ways that David Koresh can only dream of? Can't you see that Reggie with a player of Duncan's caliber would've been a Finals contender every year in the period after Jordan retired?

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Spurs minus Manu = 2 NBA championships

Spurs minus Parker = 3 NBA championships

Spurs minus Bowen = 1 NBA championship

its all about TEAM

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Originally Posted by hitmanyr2k

Blah...the Jordan excuse again. Reggie had his chance to be a champion when Michael was playing in '98.

Jordan didn't keep the Pacers from advancing to the Finals. He had one of his worst shooting games ever in that Game 7 to be honest. Reggie turned into Houdini and disappeared in the 2nd half and let his team down. He took one shot in the 2nd half of Game 7 and it was a freakin airball :lol

That game went down to the final seconds and if Reggie was just a little more aggressive offensively perhaps the Pacers could have beaten the Bulls in that series. I know one thing for damn sure...you would never see Ginobili disappear like that in a big game.

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You mean the same Reggie who forced a game 7 with his clutch three-pointer? That Reggie?

edit: my bad. game 4 was the clutch three-pointer.

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Originally Posted by hater

Spurs minus Manu = 2 NBA championships

Spurs minus Parker = 3 NBA championships

Spurs minus Bowen = 1 NBA championship

its all about TEAM

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You're proving my point.

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Originally Posted by hater

Spurs minus Manu = 2 NBA championships

Spurs minus Parker = 3 NBA championships

Spurs minus Bowen = 1 NBA championship

its all about TEAM

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.

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Originally Posted by Kermit

You mean the same Reggie who forced a game 7 with his clutch three-pointer? That Reggie?

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No he didn't :lol Stop talking out of your ass. In Game 6 Reggie was 2-13 for 8 measly points. Rik Smits and Dale Davis saved the day and forced Game 7. Smits couldn't miss in that game. You're talking about Game 4 when Reggie hit the last second three to knot the series at 2-2 but after that he stunk it up.

And when it comes to clutch what the hell else does Reggie do besides shoot the ball? If the guy isn't scoring he's absolutely WORTHLESS. Is he gonna play defense? NO!! Is he going to rebound? NO!! Is he going to be a playmaker? Is any team going to put the ball in Reggie's hands and say go make a play for us or get your teammate an open look? NO!!

I'll take Ginobili in a Game 7 every single time over Miller.

I rectified my statement. I am allowed to do that. I got it wrong.

However, the argument has gotten skewed. It was asserted that Manu was the greatest clutch player of all-time and I've mearly been debunking that theory. Whether or not Reggie played defense, ran the offense or rebounded is moot. He made numerous clutch plays to win games and the fact that he didn't win championships doesn't diminish his ability to win a game in the final seconds.

Sometimes I think these guys are saying this stuff just to push buttons. They know damn well Ginobili is not the clutchest player in the history of the game :lol :lol

And if they're being serious then they're idiots.

ducks sucks

never mention the likes of ray, overrated marion, josh howard to the champion in manu

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Originally Posted by ArgSpursFan.

averaging 15 pts in playoffs 4rd quartes last year just makes it more clear to me,that Manu is probably the clutchest player in NBA history.
like Shaq always sais about his FTs: I make them when they count. Manu does the same: he makes them when they count,but not only FTs, also layups, dunks, 3 pts shots, ect.

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I AM NOT dissing Manu. I think he's incredible, awesome, amazing, wonderful, etc etc and I would never trade him from this team. I've never had more fun watching basketball than when watching Manu play.

However, let's get what Buck said straight:

"...the fourth quarters of the last road games in each of the Phoenix, Utah and Cleveland series last season, he averaged about 15 points."

So he averaged 15ppg in the 4th quarters of 3 games, not the entire playoffs.

Just putting that there for accuracy's sake.

Manu is the balls!!

He is hands down, the most underrated player in the game.

Ducks is a bitch.

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Yes Reggie can shoot better than him but if someone is guarding him then what will Reggie do? He doesn't pass well, he can't dribble and he sure can't take a charge or steal the ball either.

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You're right. It's kind of hard to do those things at his age from the broadcasting booth.

I can't think of anyone, outside of Jordan, that I would want on the court more in the 4th quarter than Manu.

And not just for his scoring.

For chrissakes, we have an All Star, finals MVP point guard! And who do we have running the plays at crucial moments in playoff games? Not the All Star/Finals MVP...but some guy from Argentina coming off the bench.

That DEFINES clutch.

Look it up.

And just to make it plain. I'm not dissing TP.

I'm, in fact, praising him.

For TP, with all of his talents and abilities, to realize what he has in Manu...and give the ball to Manu in those clutch moments, shows a maturity far greater than his years. Would other All-Star point guards be willing to let someone else run the team in clutch moments?

Well, maybe... if they had Manu. :)

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Originally Posted by SouthernFried

I can't think of anyone, outside of Jordan, that I would want on the court more in the 4th quarter than Manu.

And not just for his scoring.

For chrissakes, we have an All Star, finals MVP point guard! And who do we have running the plays at crucial moments in playoff games? Not the All Star/Finals MVP...but some guy from Argentina coming off the bench.

That DEFINES clutch.

Look it up.
And just to make it plain. I'm not dissing TP.

I'm, in fact, praising him.

For TP, with all of his talents and abilities, to realize what he has in Manu...and give the ball to Manu in those clutch moments, shows a maturity far greater than his years. Would other All-Star point guards be willing to let someone else run the team in clutch moments?

Well, maybe... if they had Manu. :)

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i like both this posts... it really defines what a great Player TP has become... i dream about the day Jordan maybe talking to Manu and someone takes picture of that moment... :hungry: