Substitute stars take center stage for Spurs, Mavs

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/b...i.2daadc8.html
Substitute stars take center stage for Spurs, Mavs

Web Posted: 11/15/2007 12:19 AM CST

Jeff McDonald
Express-News

DALLAS — The way Spurs coach Gregg Popovich remembers it, it wasn't too difficult to persuade Manu Ginobili to give up life as a starter.
He simply called the could-be All-Star into his office and, with the measured calm of an investment broker discussing portfolio options, laid out the myriad reasons a move to the bench would be beneficial for both Ginobili and the Spurs.

At least, that's Popovich's version of the story. Ginobili recalls the conversation a bit differently.

"He didn't say it cool like he says it now," Ginobili said. "He was upset because we were playing bad. He (yelled) 'You are going to start from the bench!' And I said OK."

Ginobili can chuckle at the 4-year-old memory today, and for good reason. Every year since, he has moved to the bench at some point in the season, usually with smashing results.

Through eight games this season, Ginobili is averaging 19.9 points off the bench as the centerpiece of the NBA's most potent reserve unit, supplying the Spurs with a nightly dose of instant offense.

It's the same role Ginobili filled during the Spurs' NBA title runs of 2005 and 2007. It has worked so well, in fact, that it has inspired a copycat 275 miles to the north.

For proof, look no further than the home bench at the American Airlines Center tonight, when the Spurs face the Dallas Mavericks. Avery Johnson has his own Manu Ginobili.

His name is Jason Terry.

After starting 558 games in his career, Terry has shifted into the role of sixth man this season, for precisely the same reasons Ginobili made the move.

Terry provides Dallas with just-add-water offense, helps create matchup problems with other teams' second units and helps set Johnson's rotation as such so that he never has to do without a prime scorer — even when Dirk Nowitzki and Josh Howard are resting.

So far, Terry has taken to his new role like a salmon to swimming — averaging a team-leading 22.3 points per game, which includes a 31-point night against Houston earlier this month.

Like Ginobili, Terry has already been his team's leading scorer four times. Like Terry, Ginobili already has a 30-point game under his belt.

"I'm very comfortable in this role," Terry said. "I'm going to go out there and give us what we need, a good punch off the bench every night."

As a result, tonight's game between Southwest Division rivals won't only feature firepower in the starting lineup. Each team has a not-so-secret weapon poised to explode off the bench.

The Spurs and Mavericks boast the two most productive benches in the NBA. The Spurs are getting 44.5 points a night out of their reserves; the Mavs 42.3.

Most of the credit goes to Ginobili and Terry, All-Star caliber players willing to submit themselves to the role of super-sub.

It is a job that comes at the expense of the ego.

By agreeing to life as a reserve, for instance, Ginobili has severely hindered his chances of ever making another All-Star team.

He knows it. He doesn't care.

"He understood it was better for the team if he comes off the bench," Popovich said. "We're fortunate enough that he's willing to do that. A selfish player wouldn't do that."

Ginobili has never been accused of that.

Popovich swears it was never difficult to convince Ginobili to make his annual trek to the bench. It didn't take much cajoling.

"There was no sell job," Popovich said.

Ginobili doesn't quite remember it that way. On this, however, he will concur with his coach: It is an easy sell now.

"At first, I wanted to stay a starter," Ginobili said. "But now, I like it."

Notebook: Popovich says he still doesn't know how much longer Robert Horry will remain inactive. Horry, who missed almost the entire preseason to deal with a family matter, has not played this year. "He could play tomorrow, he could play 31/2 months from now," Popovich said. ... One player who is inching closer to playing is reserve point guard Jacque Vaughn, who is recovering from a strained calf. He has been upgraded from "out" to "doubtful" for tonight's game.

Avery annoys me more and more every year.

I still cherish the memories though

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He simply called the could-be All-Star into his office and, with the measured calm of an investment broker discussing portfolio options, laid out the myriad reasons a move to the bench would be beneficial for both Ginobili and the Spurs.

At least, that's Popovich's version of the story. Ginobili recalls the conversation a bit differently.

"He didn't say it cool like he says it now," Ginobili said. "He was upset because we were playing bad. He (yelled) 'You are going to start from the bench!' And I said OK."

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:lol
Play that line with Pop's and Ginobili's voices in your head. Pretty funny.

Avery is such a biter.

Pop is a revisionist lying bastard.

While I'm a lifelong Manu-off-the-bench advocate, I have to give props to Manu for never complaining about his role. He accepts it and makes the most out of it ... to say the least.

Duncan, Parker and Bowen are team players and everything, but I doubt that any of those three guys would take a benching in stride.

^I think Bowen would take it in stride....

I'm getting tired of Avery....he is literally copying every move from the Spurs book. Tell him he needs to get his own coaching ideas! :lol

Most star players would have a difficult time not being allowed to be introduced by name under the spotlights and bumping chests with the other starters after the national anthem is played.

I remember when George Karl was between coaching jobs in 2004 and, as a TV analyst, George said that he was trying to convince Pop to bring Manu off the bench. This was after Manu had become a starter (2003 Stephen Jackson was the starter most of the season). It's funny remembering that, now, because Pop went back to bringing Manu off the bench for the Denver 1st-round playoff series, against Georgie!!! :lol

AJ is a copy cat :td :td :td

I'm sure Avery convinced Terry to go to the bench,with the Manu example,and the 2005 and 2007 championships ,thanks to that move.
Otherwise I doubt JT would've said yes to become a bench player.

Imitation is the extreme form of respect.

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Originally Posted by wildbill2u

Imitation is the extreme form of respect.

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Exactly.

Other teams have been trying to copy the Spurs. That's respect. It could be annoying (e.g. 6th man role) at times, but that is the way it is when you want to accomplish something.

Is Avery capable of an original idea?

I don't like it one bit, and it's not really all that smart for the Mavericks anyway. It's no secret that they match-up well against the Spurs since they have copied every aspect of the Spurs and continue to do so, but that is just what allows them to play us to basically a draw, and then get killed by someone like the warriors in the playoffs.

Avery needs to grow up and be his own man, it is getting embarrassing. It's been reported that Avery has recently been seen drinking wine and trying to find a plastic surgeon that will give him fake acne scars...

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/story/304251.html

AIR OF FAMILIARITY

It's no secret that Mavericks coach Avery Johnson has taken a pointer or two from Spurs coach Gregg Popovich. But a closer look reveals that the Mavericks have patterned themselves quite a bit after their rivals from south central Texas:


San Antonio Dallas
Slashing point guard with low assist numbers Tony Parker Devin Harris
Harris is working to get to Parker's level, but their skill sets are similar.

A starting perimeter player known for defense Bruce Bowen Eddie Jones
Bowen is the better defender, but they both specialize in 'D' and the 3.

Sixth man who is arguably the team's third-best player Manu Ginobili Jason Terry
Surprising that Manu has never won a Sixth Man Award; Terry is gunning for this year's honor.

A dominant power forward Tim Duncan Dirk Nowitzki
Duncan is really a center and Dirk has a small forward's game, but both teams call them their power forwards.

Rotation of complementary centers Fabricio Oberto, Francisco Elson DeSagana Diop, Erick Dampier

I suppose it IS smart to copy the best franchise in sport, though, if you have no original thoughts/ideas of your own that are any better. Just have the balls to admit that is what you are doing.

AP Newswire: Dallas Mavericks to play the Dallas Mavericks tonight, Avery Johnson: "Waaayallll...because that's what the Spurs are doing right now, and we always seem to work better as a team when we are actually another team that is better than OUW-ER team..."

I think it's funny that Cuban and company accused Nelson of taking things from them to help beat the Mavericks while AJ is copying the Spurs style.

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Originally Posted by loveforthegame

I think it's funny that Cuban and company accused Nelson of taking things from them to help beat the Mavericks while AJ is copying the Spurs style.

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+1

Avery is a shameless copycat.

but a lot of coaches in the league are actually copying Pop. Even Isaiah tried with with Starbury LOL

Pop is a genius

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Originally Posted by TMTTRIO

"I'm very comfortable in this role," Terry said. "I'm going to go out there and give us what we need, a good punch on the nuts every night."

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Originally Posted by zepn

I don't like it one bit, and it's not really all that smart for the Mavericks anyway. It's no secret that they match-up well against the Spurs since they have copied every aspect of the Spurs and continue to do so, but that is just what allows them to play us to basically a draw, and then get killed by someone like the warriors in the playoffs.

Avery needs to grow up and be his own man, it is getting embarrassing. It's been reported that Avery has recently been seen drinking wine and trying to find a plastic surgeon that will give him fake acne scars...

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/story/304251.html

AIR OF FAMILIARITY

It's no secret that Mavericks coach Avery Johnson has taken a pointer or two from Spurs coach Gregg Popovich. But a closer look reveals that the Mavericks have patterned themselves quite a bit after their rivals from south central Texas:


San Antonio Dallas
Slashing point guard with low assist numbers Tony Parker Devin Harris
Harris is working to get to Parker's level, but their skill sets are similar.

A starting perimeter player known for defense Bruce Bowen Eddie Jones
Bowen is the better defender, but they both specialize in 'D' and the 3.

Sixth man who is arguably the team's third-best player Manu Ginobili Jason Terry
Surprising that Manu has never won a Sixth Man Award; Terry is gunning for this year's honor.

A dominant power forward Tim Duncan Dirk Nowitzki
Duncan is really a center and Dirk has a small forward's game, but both teams call them their power forwards.

Rotation of complementary centers Fabricio Oberto, Francisco Elson DeSagana Diop, Erick Dampier

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I can take those comparisions a bit further

Avery's decision to "ratchet down" the early season pressure on his team. Instead focusing more on having his team playing their best brand of basketball at or after the all-star break.

Avery will never be a great coach if he is so hot blooded and insecure.

Didn't he switch his starting lineup at 2nd half of Dallas vs. Golden State a few days ago? :lol

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Originally Posted by hater

Avery will never be a great coach if he is so hot blooded and insecure.

Didn't he switch his starting lineup at 2nd half of Dallas vs. Golden State a few days ago? :lol

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Sure did. I still maintain that the Warriors are the "devil" that is hiding in the Mav's mental closet. Despite losing to the Mavs a week ago, the Warriors are undaunted by the loss. They KNOW they have a mental edge on the Mavs.

This is a big year for Avery. He 2-8 in his last 10 playoff games. Will he pace himself and his team during the season? Or will he "grind" them down every game as he did last season? He admitted earlier this season that his team was worn out by the time the playoffs started. Huh? Isn't his job to make sure his team is playing their best basketball heading into the playoffs?

Every year, Avery seems to think he has a deep bench, yet every year he finds out his reserves are "less than adequate" once the playoffs begin.

I think it is bullshit that Avery helps the Spurs win #1 then creates a fucking clone in the west to try and take us out every year..

May the best team win but he is really starting to annoy me.

Avery is dead to me.

Everyone says the Spurs are boring, yet many of these teams are desperately trying to copy them. Maybe they decided they would rather win than "entertain" after all. I have always thought River Parades are more entertaining than stylish losing.

Phoenix = "Losertainment"?

Jesus christ you guys are pathetic. Avery copying Pop? I'm sure Pop was the first NBA coach ever to bring a top 3 player off the bench :lol.

Say, do you suppose maybe Pop might have derived some of his tactics from his peers? I mean, I know it's clearly a patentable offense to have a solid low post threat who draws double team and kicks it out to open shooters and all.

You guys should contact the Library of Congress ASAP.

Well DumbMcDumb,

It's one thing to use the general wisdom of the NBA ages, or even be inspired by your peers. But it is clearly an entirely different beast to exactly copy, word for word, and move for move, your former coach and friend to the point that national, and even hometown area newspapers are writing long columns about it.

Try to copy some of those books in the Library of Congress as closely and we'll be writing to you in jail.

Or not...

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Avery needs to grow up and be his own man, it is getting embarrassing. It's been reported that Avery has recently been seen drinking wine and trying to find a plastic surgeon that will give him fake acne scars...

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:lol

I would like to respectfully submit the observation that several of you people are Blind Homers.

http://www.sculpturegallery.com/italy_2/homer1.jpg

There is not a coach in America or in the universe who wouldn't love to have a successful, proven model to point to as a way of getting around managing bench depth and the egos involved.

There is not a coach in America or in the universe who hasn't copied something from some other coach. Pop's playbook is thick and full of other coaches' creations.

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Originally Posted by DubMcDub

Jesus christ you guys are pathetic. Avery copying Pop? I'm sure Pop was the first NBA coach ever to bring a top 3 player off the bench :lol.

Say, do you suppose maybe Pop might have derived some of his tactics from his peers? I mean, I know it's clearly a patentable offense to have a solid low post threat who draws double team and kicks it out to open shooters and all.

You guys should contact the Library of Congress ASAP.

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Tell that to the sports writers that see the resemblance. Do not purposely blind yourself.

It is no secret that the Cavs try to pattern themselves with the Spurs. Mavs take it to another level. They're copying it. :lol

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Originally Posted by Solid D

I would like to respectfully submit the observation that several of you people are Blind Homers.

http://www.sculpturegallery.com/italy_2/homer1.jpg

There is not a coach in America or in the universe who wouldn't love to have a successful, proven model to point to as a way of getting around managing bench depth and the egos involved.

There is not a coach in America or in the universe who hasn't copied something from some other coach. Pop's playbook is thick and full of other coaches' creations.

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Again, it is clearly an entirely different beast to exactly copy, word for word, and move for move, your former coach and friend to the point that national, and even DFW hometown area newspapers are writing long columns about it.

The most recent story cited was from the Ft. Worth Star Telegram -hardly Spurs homers.

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9. MODEL YOURSELF ON OTHER ACHIEVERS.

To gain improvements quickly and step up to a new level of achievement, Robbins believes learning from others who are the best in their field is the fastest way to achieve success.

He told the story of how he wanted to improve his tennis game and so employed Andre Agassi, the then number one ranked player to help him achieve this.

Who could you model yourself on?

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Modeling is a characteristic that helps successful people become just that - successful. No shame in that. Very few successful people in any endeavor of life ever had an original thought. That tenet is at the core of what someone who doesn't know how to become successful become successful.

Him copying Pop in itself doesn't irk me. Now he has been guilty of being an ass in the past but there's no crime in imitating Pop and the Spur's system.

Modelling successful behavior from a variety of sources over a period of time is acceptable.

Directly, exactly, copying, primarily from a single source, soon after the source does it, and not giving credit to that source is not acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Demo Dick Marcinko

Modeling is a characteristic that helps successful people become just that - successful. No shame in that. Very few successful people in any endeavor of life ever had an original thought. That tenet is at the core of what someone who doesn't know how to become successful become successful.

Him copying Pop in itself doesn't irk me. Now he has been guilty of being an ass in the past but there's no crime in imitating Pop and the Spur's system.

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Well said.

Also, most teams draft, try to get certain free agents each offseason with matching up better with a certain team (type of team) in mind. It's always the team that they know is better than they are.

What's scary is Avery is copying some of the Spurs' moves, and his team is better than the Spurs in terms of depth and former All-Stars.

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Originally Posted by zepn

Modelling successful behavior from a variety of sources over a period of time is acceptable.

Directly, exactly, copying, primarily from a single source, soon after the source does it, and not giving credit to that source is not acceptable.

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Regardless of what is written about the comparisons between the AJ version of the Mavs and the Spurs, the Mavs are not direct copies of the Spurs system. Yes, there are similarities but there are also differences. You can see it with your own eyes, it's obvious. The defenses the Mavs run are not all the same defenses that the Spurs run. Offensively, the Mavs tend to run the screen/rolls and isos more like Don Nelson does, specifically looking to exploit the mismatches almost exclusively. Pop varies things a bit more. These teams don't look the same on the court because they are different. Nowitzki is a totally different player than Tim Duncan and the two teams are geared to take advantage of their individual styles.

With that said, what's with the "be a man and be different" take? That's whack. There is nothing wrong with taking a philosophy that works, implementing it with adaptations for your own individual strengths in any arena, in sports...in business...or in your own time management and life.

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Originally Posted by zepn

Modelling successful behavior from a variety of sources over a period of time is acceptable.

Directly, exactly, copying, primarily from a single source, soon after the source does it, and not giving credit to that source is not acceptable.

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:lol :lol :lol Jesus, maybe you should stop crying.

"Not Acceptable"? Someone alert the FBI. They'll want to know about this blatant plagiarism ASAP.

Clearly you either are unemployed or work at a McDonalds, because any professional, white-collar worker in their right mind knows that the key to success is to apply the principles you've learned from the successful people around you. Sometimes, that might even be just one person who has heavily influenced your philosophy within your profession.

Actually, I'll take back what I said. Maybe you are a professional--but if you are, and you follow your own crybaby mantra, then you're probably not a very good one.

Avery is still "grasshopper".

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Originally Posted by Solid D

I would like to respectfully submit the observation that several of you people are Blind Homers.

http://www.sculpturegallery.com/italy_2/homer1.jpg

There is not a coach in America or in the universe who wouldn't love to have a successful, proven model to point to as a way of getting around managing bench depth and the egos involved.

There is not a coach in America or in the universe who hasn't copied something from some other coach. Pop's playbook is thick and full of other coaches' creations.

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Exactly.

A lot of the Spurs offense still used today was put in by AJ in 1999. When the Spurs started bad, AJ convinced Pop to change their offense. A lot of what AJ put in is still being run today.

Pop's innovations have been in terms of limiting playing time for his star players. I don't know of any playcalling innovations Pop has made. Every play the Spurs run both offensively and defensively have roots elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Exactly.

A lot of the Spurs offense still used today was put in by AJ in 1999. When the Spurs started bad, AJ convinced Pop to change their offense. A lot of what AJ put in is still being run today.

Pop's innovations have been in terms of limiting playing time for his star players. I don't know of any playcalling innovations Pop has made. Every play the Spurs run both offensively and defensively have roots elsewhere.

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It's good to see a Spurs fan secure enough in his team and their multitude of championships that he doesn't reek of insecurity regarding a lesser Mavs team. Props to you.

I did not say EVERY part of the Mavs was eactly like EVERY part of the Spurs. That's just stupid. Also, I said Avery should be HIS OWN man, instead of playing follow the leader. Just like every man should be his own man.

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Originally Posted by DubMcDub

:lol :lol :lol Jesus, maybe you should stop crying.

"Not Acceptable"? Someone alert the FBI. They'll want to know about this blatant plagiarism ASAP.

Clearly you either are unemployed or work at a McDonalds, because any professional, white-collar worker in their right mind knows that the key to success is to apply the principles you've learned from the successful people around you. Sometimes, that might even be just one person who has heavily influenced your philosophy within your profession.

Actually, I'll take back what I said. Maybe you are a professional--but if you are, and you follow your own crybaby mantra, then you're probably not a very good one.

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So, you finally found the time to stop felating your dog, and then you come in here just to drop weak McJob smack?

Look, I'm not making this shit up. It was reported by the Star Telegram, amongst many others. I gave you the link - look it up - do your own work.

And I don't give a flying fucking shit who or what you think I am, but I will repeat my contention that there is a LIMIT to how much you can borrow/steal from someone else before it becomes immoral to even your OWN sensibilities, if not the law.

Obviously your lower limit of just where borrowing becomes stealing is lower than mine (and even worse -lower than the media). I'm just glad someone with your low moral character lives in the Dallas area and not in my neighborhood, so at least OUR dogs are safe...

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Originally Posted by zepn

I did not say EVERY part of the Mavs was eactly like EVERY part of the Spurs. That's just stupid. Also, I said Avery should be HIS OWN man, instead of playing follow the leader. Just like every man should be his own man.

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People should be allowed to read your sentences and determine what you are saying without you coming back and fine tuning what you said to the nth detail. You said what you said using words like "Directly, exactly, copying". You said AJ should "grow up". Boys grow up to become what? Men.

Be a man, own up to what you were saying and if you didn't say it well, own up and apologize for not saying it clearly enough for people to understand. Now I'm going to wonder what word you are going to be clarifying in your next post...

You should be able to understand the English language and apply at least a little bit of thought/logic. I'm not going to sit here and babysit your mental deficiencies.

I said, verbatim: "Avery needs to grow up and be his own man". Which is a complete thought, and yet all you came away with was "grow up". Astounding.

I guess I could spoon-feed the rest to you too, but why? The other sentence you had a problem understanding had a total of six conditions, and you were lost after three...

Ok, short-bus version: Avery copy Pop = bad.

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Originally Posted by zepn

It's no secret that they match-up well against the Spurs since they have copied every aspect of the Spurs and continue to do so

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Originally Posted by zepn

I suppose it IS smart to copy the best franchise in sport

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Originally Posted by zepn

it is clearly an entirely different beast to exactly copy, word for word, and move for move, your former coach and friend to the point that national, and even hometown area newspapers are writing long columns about it.

Try to copy some of those books in the Library of Congress as closely and we'll be writing to you in jail.

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Originally Posted by zepn

Again, it is clearly an entirely different beast to exactly copy, word for word, and move for move, your former coach and friend

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by zepn

It's no secret that they match-up well against the Spurs since they have copied every aspect of the Spurs and continue to do so

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Originally Posted by zepn

I did not say EVERY part of the Mavs was eactly like EVERY part of the Spurs. That's just stupid.

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Are you really that fucking stupid?

Or do you think the rest of the Spurstalk readers are that stupid also?

To think that I REALLY MEANT that EVERY part of the Mavs was EXACTLY like EVERY part of the Spurs?

Or could it be that I meant AJ copied just about everything he was ABLE to copy from the Spurs? Ya think? Try to use a little common sense once in a while.

I forgot I was talking to Mr. Short-bus there for a minute...let me try to explain it to you...again...

I did not mean that Avery has the Mavs wearing the same underwear as the Spurs.
I did not mean that Avery has the Mavs eating the same food as the Spurs.
I did not mean that Avery has the Mavs listening to the same music as the Spurs.

And I will repeat, if you ACTUALLY think that I meant that then you are just fucking stupid.

Now, back to the post at hand before I had to slap you around when you thought you were being "clever"...

You should be able to understand the English language and apply at least a little bit of thought/logic. I'm not going to sit here and babysit your mental deficiencies.

I said, verbatim: "Avery needs to grow up and be his own man". Which is a complete thought, and yet all you came away with was "grow up". Astounding.

I guess I could spoon-feed the rest to you too, but why? The other sentence you had a problem understanding had a total of six conditions, and you were lost after three...

Ok, short-bus version: Avery copy Pop = bad.

I posted your quotes with no comments needed from me, and yet you argue back at your own posts. :lol

Yeah, because the rest of us can't quite figure out what you were attempting to do, right? Because "I" cherry picked those comments, and "I" took them out of context, and "I" lined them up in that order...Sorry, we aren't buying it.

Have you always thought the other readers of Spurstalk are such morons that you can pass that weak bullshit off on them? That's pretty damn arrogant.

What do you want a reward for being a semantic genius? For being so fucking literal that you think the rest of us should too? Well, here's your award:

CONGRATULATIONS: YOU ARE A FUCKING LITERAL SEMANTIC GENIUS

which means you are a complete waste of time. You are not being "clever", and unfortunately you are not advancing the understanding or enjoyment of basketball, you are just wasting everybody's time - literally.

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Originally Posted by Solid D

no comments needed from me

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Well, let's see if you have the intelligence or cajones to comment now...

You should be able to understand the English language and apply at least a little bit of thought/logic. I'm not going to sit here and babysit your mental deficiencies.

I said, verbatim: "Avery needs to grow up and be his own man". Which is a complete thought, and yet all you came away with was "grow up". Astounding.

I guess I could spoon-feed the rest to you too, but why? The other sentence you had a problem understanding had a total of six conditions, and you were lost after three...

Ok, short-bus version: Avery copy Pop = bad.

:lmao @ sepn telling Solid to use common sense

What's with all this copying crap? Pop uses plays from the Argentina national team, doesn't he? If Avery wants to use some of Pop's ideas/tactics I don't see the big deal.

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

:lmao @ sepn telling Solid to use common sense

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Sorry, I didn't realize he was incapable of it...

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Originally Posted by Johnny RIngo

What's with all this copying crap? Pop uses plays from the Argentina national team, doesn't he? If Avery wants to use some of Pop's ideas/tactics I don't see the big deal.

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I agree, some is ok.

And I'm not sure what Solid D-orks' problem is, but I was basically saying that all along - some copying is fine, but imo Avery goes too far with it.

Having JET off the bench for the mavs has done what the author said, given them instant firepower. But the main thing it did was make him NOT the point guard.

Devin is now the point guard...period. Jason's role is now different and simplified. His role now is to come in and light it up, he can still run the team but his pounding of the ball so much isn't as detrimental as it was before when he was starting.

So it sort of solved the mavs SG problem (i.e. jet ) who was too small to play with devin and moved him to the bench where he can be the scoring point guard that he's most talented at.

:lol after the Mavs-Spurs game highlights about the super-subs.

the exchange on TNT, " Barkeley: Ginobili best 6th man in the NBA!
Kenny : Jason Terry might have something to say about that
Barkley : who would you rather have Ginobili or Jason Terry?
Kenny: Eh, I'd rather have Ginobili.
Barkley : then shut the hell up. (laughter)"

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Originally Posted by ManuTim_best of Fwiendz

:lol after the Mavs-Spurs game highlights about the super-subs.

the exchange on TNT, " Barkeley: Ginobili best 6th man in the NBA!
Kenny : Jason Terry might have something to say about that
Barkley : who would you rather have Ginobili or Jason Terry?
Kenny: Eh, I'd rather have Ginobili.
Barkley : then shut the hell up. (laughter)"

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:lol

AJ is a born leader. He was a coach even when he was a player. AJ has always been his own man, walking to his own beat, with a conviction that shines through - from his belief in God to his never-quit attitude.

Every good man has his mentors along the way. AJ gave credit to his mentors, Nellie and Pop, when he accepted his Coach of the Year award.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...-johnson_x.htm

Hail to the Chief: Mavs reflect toughness of coach Johnson
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Enlarge By Ronald Martinez, Getty Images

Avery Johnson has instilled a tough-minded attitude in his former run-and-gun Mavericks

COACH'S KINDER, GENTLER SIDE

Avery Johnson will never be mistaken for a players' coach, but he has been known to send their wives flowers on Mother's Day.

"The relationship I have with their families is critical," he said Wednesday. "I've tried to show them I care just as much about them as individuals as I do about winning."

He says his credibility is his biggest strength as a coach. "After playing over a thousand games, when I wasn't necessarily invited to the party, I had to come in through the back door. (But) you still have to communicate and teach."

By Greg Boeck, USA TODAY

DALLAS — Don't be fooled by the soprano-twanged, Southern accent. Avery Johnson wasn't a high-pitched pushover as a championship-winning point guard who proved general managers wrong. Nor is he as a ring-pursuing coach who is proving his grandmother right.
The 5-foot-11 coach of the Dallas Mavericks possesses a Soprano-like toughness that belies his humble demeanor and is the bedrock of his uncommon take-charge qualities.

There's no question who's at the helm of a Dallas team that continues its pursuit of the franchise's first title with the tip-off of the NBA Finals tonight at home against the Miami Heat.

"Avery has gone from being the Little General (his nickname as a player) to the Commander in Chief," Mavericks owner Mark Cuban says.

From the defensive mind-set he demanded of a team that tried to outscore opponents to the goal of winning a championship for a franchise that was the laughingstock of the league in the '90s, Johnson is in charge.

"Leadership, passion, vision," general manager Donn Nelson answered unhesitatingly when asked what Johnson brought to the team 15 months ago, when he took over from the man who groomed him, Don Nelson.

Johnson "has the whole package," Don Nelson, the GM's father, said at the time.

"There is nothing he doesn't have except experience."

Johnson, 41, hasn't disappointed. He finished out the 2004-05 season with a 16-2 record and won 66 of his first 82 games, the best start in NBA history and the fastest coach to reach the 50-win mark (in 62 games).

This season he coached the Western Conference in the All-Star Game, guided Dallas to a franchise-tying 60 wins and was named coach of the year.

Dallas has closed out all three playoff series on the road, including dethroning the San Antonio Spurs, Johnson's former team led by his long-time mentor, Gregg Popovich. The Mavericks then took the run out of the run-and-stun Phoenix Suns.

"He can be tough on his players," Mavericks star Dirk Nowitzki says of Johnson, "but he's always pushing us forward and trying to get the best out of his team. He's one of the greatest leaders in sports, how he handles himself and talks, his presence. Mentally, he's probably our toughest guy on the team."

Fittingly, Johnson takes his first crack at a ring against a veteran coach, Pat Riley, whom he has often been compared to because of his attention to details and motivational skills.

"I've been accused of being a 'little Pat Riley' at times," Johnson says. "And I take that as a compliment."

Self-motivated leader

Johnson was born to lead. That's what his grandmother told him when he was growing up in New Orleans.

"She told me, 'Son, you're going to coach or preach because you're gifted to do one,' " Johnson says, recalling the words of Kitty Johnson, now 99. "In a way, I feel I'm doing both."

From the beginning, Grandma saw something special in her grandson.

"He was different from all the rest of the children," she says. "He was a bright little boy.

"I used to try to give him money like the rest of the children, but he said, 'Grandma, don't give me your money. When I get a job, I'm going to give you money.' He always had plenty of sense."

She saw his potential, but it was his father, now deceased, who prepped Johnson for the job, instilling the toughness that is the identity of his Mavericks team.

Jim Johnson was a stock clerk in an electrical store in New Orleans, raising a family without an education but with a determination to have his eight children succeed.

"My dad," says Johnson, second youngest in the family, "breathed that toughness in me. He was a hard-nosed guy, a fighter."

His father came to all his youth games and didn't hesitate to critique him.

"He didn't care how many points I scored or how many home runs I hit," Johnson says. "Whenever he thought I played soft, that's what he was really upset about."

Johnson's toughness and leadership qualities were revealed in high school, at all-boys St. Augustine's in the middle of New Orleans. An assistant coach then was Bernard Griffith, hired last fall by Johnson as part of his Mavericks' player development staff after Hurricane Katrina closed the school.

"He was probably a better coach in high school than I was," says Griffith, who later won four state championships at St. Augustine as head coach. "He was a teacher as a player and as a student. He could convince the other guys not to do some of the things you get involved in at that age.

"He was self-motivated to be successful, so nobody could sit back and not be motivated. He'd get on you."

Johnson's team went 35-0 his senior season in 1983 and won the state title, but it's his toughness that Griffith remembers most.

"You had to be tough, especially small of stature like him," Griffith says. "You had to be able to stand your ground and hold up to your convictions and the direction your parents gave."

A coach on the court, too

Johnson hasn't wavered since. He led the nation in assists his junior and senior seasons at Southern University in New Orleans but wasn't selected in the 1988 NBA draft.

Undeterred, he signed as a free agent with the Seattle SuperSonics. He bounced around with six teams — he was traded three times and cut twice, once on Christmas Eve in an airport — before finding a home as the coach on the floor for the Spurs and Popovich in the mid '90s.

He wasn't gifted with size or All-Star talent, but he succeeded as a hard-working, hard-pushing, unselfish, blue-collar athlete and communicator. The Spurs had two future Hall of Famers on the roster in David Robinson and Tim Duncan, but San Antonio was Johnson's team.

Even then, he didn't hesitate calling out the stars, rallying the role players. "Avery was a coach even when he was a player. Everybody knew that," Popovich says.

Johnson's tenure with the Spurs climaxed in a championship in 1999. The point guard made the clinching basket in the closeout game against the New York Knicks in Madison Square Garden.

Nothing has changed since, except he's wearing a suit instead of a uniform.

"The credibility comes with the ring he has on his finger," says former player Derek Harper, now a Dallas sports anchor. "Even a superstar like Dirk Nowitzki listens to what he has to say. When you have their attention, you can lead them."

Johnson says he wanted to "stretch" his players' thinking from the outset this season.

" 'Don't be afraid to say if we don't get to the Finals it's a lost season. That's OK,' " he says. "It puts more pressure on the players, on us as coaches. 'Aim for excellence.' That's excellence, getting to the Finals."

Along the way, he massaged egos, molded talent, preached his message — "our way, our will, our win" — and, assistant coach Del Harris says, "kicked butt and patted backs."

Jason Terry got a taste of the latter before the season, when Johnson pulled him aside and told him his role as point guard was to "quarterback the team like he did his teams. We're different players, but he let me play my game. He made us buy into what he's selling."

Nowitzki experienced the former in the playoffs. After a dull, 11-point game in a loss to the Suns, Johnson called Nowitzki into his office and "let me have it." He prodded Nowitzki to drive to the basket rather than settle for three-pointers, and the star responded with a 50-point game that turned around the series.

"That team," Suns coach Mike D'Antoni says, "reflects (Johnson's) personality. They are tough. They're not backing down. They come at you."

More than anything, Johnson is prepared for the showdown against Miami and Riley, who has four championship rings and 149 more playoff wins. Johnson won't back down.

"We're delighted to be here," Johnson says. "But we're not satisfied. We signed up to win the championship."

My contention is that Avery takes too much from Pop. I can't make it any simpler for you than that. If you can't even understand at least that much then ask one of your Junior High teachers to explain it.

Nice YEAR-OLD article that IN NO WAY refutes my contention. Here's one from YESTERDAY specifically ABOUT Avery taking from Pop:

Avery learning from Pop that less is more

By JAN HUBBARD
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

When San Antonio coach Gregg Popovich first decided that the Spurs could be successful by working less, he had to explain it to the players.

They did not understand.

The radical downsizing came last season on days of all home games. Instead of meeting for the traditional morning shootaround, Popovich told the players to rest and simply report for the night game.

At first, Popovich said, the players looked at him like he was speaking Russian, which he can do thanks to four years of studying the language at the Air Force Academy and a stint as a military intelligence officer in Eastern Europe.

"You're supposed to shoot around on the day of the game," was how Popovich interpreted their looks.

The Spurs already had a light work schedule. In a league where off-day practices are routinely two hours or more, Popovich had a maverick approach.

"When we're rolling into the season," Popovich said, "a practice more than an hour is a rarity for us."

Instead of being governed by tradition, Popovich created his own. Short practices on off-days, no practices on game days and a belief that in the marathon 82-game season, rest would pay off.

"I don't have any empirical formula to prove that it added up," Popovich said. "I have no proof that this is a brilliant piece of strategy on my part."

Well, yes, he does. In June, the Spurs won their fourth title in nine years.

"Yeah, but if we'd lost," Popovich said, "everybody would have said it was because we didn't practice enough."

As fascinating as Popovich's approach is, it becomes even more interesting for those who follow the Mavericks because of changes made by Avery Johnson this season.

Johnson is as intense as any military officer. He had to be to survive 16 seasons in the NBA at 5-foot-10, 175 pounds. As a player, he was driven and as a coach, he is demanding.

But Johnson took a look at his team in the off-season and, despite winning 67 games last year, saw a team that was physically and mentally tired at the end of the season.

So he pulled back. In training camp, he had two practices the first two days and then gave the team a day off. He has continued giving the team more days off this year than he has in the past, although he will point out that on many off-days, players come to the practice facility to do weight training. But even Johnson will smile and say that he has become a calmer coach this year.

Johnson won't say, however, whether the Spurs' reduced practice schedule led to his calmer approach.

"We try to learn from all championship-caliber teams and obviously they're one of them," Johnson said. "They've won four titles in nine years, so I think everybody wants to be like them."

Johnson played five years for Popovich in San Antonio and the two are mutual admirers. Johnson contributed mightily to the Spurs' first title in 1999, when he hit an 18-foot baseline jumper with 47 seconds left to give the Spurs a 78-77 victory and a 4-1 series win over the Knicks.

During the summer, Popovich called Johnson and told him the Spurs were retiring his jersey number in December. When asked if Johnson picked his brain during any of their off-season conversations, Popovich smiled and said, "We talk about a lot of things, and we share a lot of ideas about basketball. Let's just say we learn from each other."

Popovich has the luxury of working his players less because he has the most experienced -- and oldest -- team in the league. Ten of the 14 players on the roster are 30 or older. Six of them have double-digit years of experience. And the core group has been together for three titles.

But the Mavericks are also a veteran team. Dirk Nowitzki, Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Jerry Stackhouse, Devin Harris and Erick Dampier are in their fourth season of playing together. Dallas has seven players with eight or more years of experience and six of those are 30 or older.

One 30-something who has played for both coaches is Michael Finley, who, along with Manu Ginobili, had the most difficult time adjusting to Popovich's more relaxed schedule.

"I'm a gym rat, so for me, it's an individual adjustment," Finley said. "But for the team overall, it's good. Coach knows what kind of group of guys he has. Even though practices may be limited, he knows we will work on our individual game."

When asked if he thought Johnson had adopted at least part of Popovich's philosophy, Finley said, "People forget Avery's just in his second or third year as a head coach and he's learning as well as his team is developing. You learn from some of your mistakes in the past. Maybe in the past, he worked his team out too hard and they ran out of gas at the end, so he's trying to pull back a little bit. We'll see if this experiment works for him."

Popovich often says, and repeats, that he has learned a lot from Johnson, and if that's true, then Johnson is pretty smart because the Spurs have won four titles.

But you can always get smarter. If Johnson has listened and learned from watching the Spurs and talking to their head coach, then perhaps he is as smart as Popovich says he is.

AIR OF FAMILIARITY

It's no secret that Mavericks coach Avery Johnson has taken a pointer or two from Spurs coach Gregg Popovich. But a closer look reveals that the Mavericks have patterned themselves quite a bit after their rivals from south central Texas:


San Antonio Dallas
Slashing point guard with low assist numbers Tony Parker Devin Harris
Harris is working to get to Parker's level, but their skill sets are similar.
A starting perimeter player known for defense Bruce Bowen Eddie Jones
Bowen is the better defender, but they both specialize in 'D' and the 3.
Sixth man who is arguably the team's third-best player Manu Ginobili Jason Terry
Surprising that Manu has never won a Sixth Man Award; Terry is gunning for this year's honor.
A dominant power forward Tim Duncan Dirk Nowitzki
Duncan is really a center and Dirk has a small forward's game, but both teams call them their power forwards.
Rotation of complementary centers Fabricio Oberto, Francisco Elson DeSagana Diop, Erick Dampier
If it weren't for that Duncan character, the Mavs would have the edge here.


Jan Hubbard, 817-390-7760
[email protected]

zepn, I disagree with you that AJ taking too much from Pop, or from anyone, is a bad thing...unless the behavior becomes unfruitful or unhealthy. The article I posted was for you to understand some insight about Avery being a principled leader since his youth. He is his own man, even though he has taken ideas from others like Nellie and Pop and used them himself.

I disagree that there is anything wrong with what he is doing, especially if it works for him and his team.

I think that Pop got to where he is by being a principled man, being a leader of men, and taking ideas from others and incorporating them into his system. I think AJ has some similarities in leadership style but he's not just a copy-cat or one who is not his own man. The article above gives insight about how different he is compared with others. Observing his behavior during his tenure with the Spurs has proven that to be true. He wasn't just a Pop-copy as a player and he isn't now as a coach.

Your point demonstrates selfishness, zepn. That is not a trait that Pop nor Avery exhibits in the way that they live or treat others. Sharing and using what works is okay with them both. Pop didn't set the mold on success with patent-pending.

I think AJ does give credit to others. He did at his Coach of the Year speech.

Well of course taking TOO much is a Bad Thing - by definition.

But if you want to disagree that is your right.

It has been proven that Avery's infatuation with the Spurs has been monumentally unfruitful to the extent that it prepared them well for the Spurs, but did not prepare them for the Warriors. Leading to the greatest embarrassment in NBA playoff history.

Avery has been consitently over his head as a coach and has relied on Pop and Pop's methods as a crutch. And saying this is in no way selfish because if Avery were to become his own man as I have suggested, he would have a better chance to beat the Warriors, and subsequently the Spurs. Making my suggestions supremely UN-selfish. Avery may have Given credit to Pop at some point in the past, but he does not consistently Give credit when he lifts yet another method or technique.

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Originally Posted by zepn

So, you finally found the time to stop felating your dog, and then you come in here just to drop weak McJob smack?

Look, I'm not making this shit up. It was reported by the Star Telegram, amongst many others. I gave you the link - look it up - do your own work.

And I don't give a flying fucking shit who or what you think I am, but I will repeat my contention that there is a LIMIT to how much you can borrow/steal from someone else before it becomes immoral to even your OWN sensibilities, if not the law.

Obviously your lower limit of just where borrowing becomes stealing is lower than mine (and even worse -lower than the media). I'm just glad someone with your low moral character lives in the Dallas area and not in my neighborhood, so at least OUR dogs are safe...

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Jesus dude, quit trying so hard. You're embarrassing yourself. :lol

...And I thought you had the good sense to shut the fuck up after being so thoroughly destroyed.

I will repeat my contention ONCE AGAIN:

There is a LIMIT to how much you can borrow/steal from someone else before it becomes immoral to even your OWN sensibilities, if not the law.

If you can refute this then do it.

If not, then crawl back in your hole and shut the fuck up.

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Originally Posted by ManuTim_best of Fwiendz

:lol after the Mavs-Spurs game highlights about the super-subs.

the exchange on TNT, " Barkeley: Ginobili best 6th man in the NBA!
Kenny : Jason Terry might have something to say about that
Barkley : who would you rather have Ginobili or Jason Terry?
Kenny: Eh, I'd rather have Ginobili.
Barkley : then shut the hell up. (laughter)"

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*lol @ Kenny.

Manu, did indeed, filled-up his stat sheet in that game. I have him (and Josh Howard) in one of the fantasy leagues.

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Originally Posted by zepn

...And I thought you had the good sense to shut the fuck up after being so thoroughly destroyed.

I will repeat my contention ONCE AGAIN:

There is a LIMIT to how much you can borrow/steal from someone else before it becomes immoral to even your OWN sensibilities, if not the law.

If you can refute this then do it.

If not, then crawl back in your hole and shut the fuck up.

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My lord. If you keep repeating this to yourself, does it make it true? :lol :lol :lol

And no, I'm not going to substantively address your nonsensical, subjective valuation of what constitutes or does not constitute plagiarism. It's much more hilarious to watch you squirm while repeatedly clinging to the self-perpetuating assertion that you've "destroyed" someone.

What are you, ADD? Or just some perverted retard? You completely missed and skipped over the entire point so you you could HIGHLIGHT the parts about you blowing dogs? What the fuck is wrong with you?

I keep repeating it to you because you're a fucking idiot. And now you admit you have nothing substantive to say - although we knew that already, didn't we?

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Originally Posted by zepn

What are you, ADD? Or just some perverted retard? You completely missed and skipped over the entire point so you you could HIGHLIGHT the parts about you blowing dogs? What the fuck is wrong with you?

I keep repeating it to you because you're a fucking idiot. And now you admit you have nothing substantive to say - although we knew that already, didn't we?

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Wait, wait, wait. So I'm a "perverted retard" for bolding something that you wrote? Bolding pre-existing text is a greater indicator of perversion than actually coming up with the text in your head and committing it to writing?

It just keeps getting better with you, doesn't it? :lol

Absolutely. It clearly shows what catches your attention and what you are drawn to. It also demonstrates that you are more comfortable with beastiality than logical argument, which composed the other 80% of my comment. You know, the part you ignored, and continue to ignore, so you can get your animal kicks.

Looks like I was right about you being a dog-sucking pervert. And afraid of actual dialogue. Please stay in Dallas.

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Originally Posted by zepn

Absolutely. It clearly shows what catches your attention and what you are drawn to. It also demonstrates that you are more comfortable with beastiality than logical argument, which composed the other 80% of my comment. You know, the part you ignored, and continue to ignore, so you can get your animal kicks.

Looks like I was right about you being a dog-sucking pervert. And afraid of actual dialogue. Please stay in Dallas.

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I'd say it's much more indicative of what dominates your inner thoughts. The inspiration for such a brilliantly devised and delivered insult had to have come from somewhere.

Be careful, though. You'll have to move some of those rather disturbing thoughts out of your brain to make room for the space that I am clearly occupying at this point.

Don't confuse "doesn't care" to address your logical (really? are you sure?) argument with "is incapable" of doing the same. As I noted, it's much more fun to watch you squirm as you concede increasingly more of your dome to me.

Besides, your ridiculous argument has already been rebuked time and time again in this thread, by both myself and a good portion of your fellow Spurs fans. Maybe we were all too "illogical" for you to successfully comprehend?

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Originally Posted by zepn

...And I thought you had the good sense to shut the fuck up after being so thoroughly destroyed.

I will repeat my contention ONCE AGAIN:

There is a LIMIT to how much you can borrow/steal from someone else before it becomes immoral to even your OWN sensibilities, if not the law.If you can refute this then do it.

If not, then crawl back in your hole and shut the fuck up.

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That is perhaps the most ridiculous statement I've ever read on this forum :lol The "law" part really makes it.

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Originally Posted by mabber

That is perhaps the most ridiculous statement I've ever read on this forum :lol The "law" part really makes it.

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His understanding of the law is impeccable. How dare you imply otherwise? :lol

Heh, don't flatter yourself, dog-sucker!

Of course you are just a Mavs troll, so I can give up on you having anything substantive, much less logical to present.

zepn is a badass

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Originally Posted by Flight3107

zepn is a badass

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The boards have been littered with some of the most hard ass dudes I've ever encountered this morning/afternoon. That guy in the other thread who, in true bad ass form, flicked off a Mavs fan....now this guy zepn.....these dudes are fuckin raw to the bone.

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Originally Posted by mabber

That is perhaps the most ridiculous statement I've ever read on this forum :lol The "law" part really makes it.

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You think so? Then please logically refute:

There is a LIMIT to how much you can borrow/steal from someone else before it becomes immoral to even your OWN sensibilities, if not the law.

I believe it is an obvious point of fact that at some point "borrowing" something becomes "stealing", and at that same point, you are clearly breaking the law.

For instance, you can borrow a friend's truck with their knowledge, but if you borrow a stranger's truck without telling them, you are breaking the law.

Please refute this for us since you claim it "is perhaps the most ridiculous statement I've ever read on this forum"

We're waiting...

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Originally Posted by Johnny RIngo

What's with all this copying crap? Pop uses plays from the Argentina national team, doesn't he? If Avery wants to use some of Pop's ideas/tactics I don't see the big deal.

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It's just sour grapes that the Spurs lost. I thought imitation was flattery.

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Originally Posted by DubMcDub

His understanding of the law is impeccable. How dare you imply otherwise? :lol

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Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Flight3107

zepn is a badass

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Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zepn

You think so? Then please logically refute:

There is a LIMIT to how much you can borrow/steal from someone else before it becomes immoral to even your OWN sensibilities, if not the law.

I believe it is an obvious point of fact that at some point "borrowing" something becomes "stealing", and at that same point, you are clearly breaking the law.

For instance, you can borrow a friend's truck with their knowledge, but if you borrow a stranger's truck without telling them, you are breaking the law.

Please refute this for us since you claim it "is perhaps the most ridiculous statement I've ever read on this forum"

We're waiting...

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HOLY SHIT !!!!!!!!



:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

When the hell did Avery borrow Pops truck?

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Originally Posted by Findog

It's just sour grapes that the Spurs lost. I thought imitation was flattery.

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No sour grapes on my part. My original satements on the matter were made before the game began.

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Originally Posted by Flight3107

When the hell did Avery borrow Pops truck?

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Are you so simple/narrow-minded that you don't even understand an analogy?

Lord help us...

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Originally Posted by zepn

Are you so simple/narrow-minded that you don't even understand an analogy?

Lord help us...

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......it seems that you are also unaware as to when you are being patronized. Sounds about right.

Not at all, but that won't advance any dialogue on the actual subject matter.

Or is this forum just here for Fart Jokes?

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Originally Posted by zepn

Are you so simple/narrow-minded that you don't even understand an analogy?

Lord help us...

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So did he or did he not borrow Pops truck?

No, he STOLE it!