Printable View
So far, having played roughly 1/8 of the season, these are your 20-5-5 players in the league.
:drunkCode:Name GP MPG PPG FGA-FGM FG% 3P% FTA-FTM FT% REB AST STL
LeBron James 10 40.7 29.2 10.3-21.8 .472 .375 7.4-11.0 .673 7.8 8.0 1.8
Kobe Bryant 8 38.0 27.4 9.8-20.6 .473 .333 6.4--7.9 .810 7.4 5.3 1.2
Tracy McGrady 9 35.8 26.8 9.8-20.9 .468 .366 5.6--7.3 .758 5.1 5.1 1.1
Manu Ginobili 10 28.8 20.0 5.7-12.0 .475 .429 6.5--7.8 .833 5.7 5.1 2.3
Ginobili has a great shot of making the All star team this year. I really hope he does :tu
crazy numbers for Manu with those few minutes he is playing.
WOW, 28 mpg vs 35,38 and 40!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that's what I call eficiency now.
And you notice Manu has the highest FG%, the highest 3 pt % and the highest FT % of the entire list.
Manu is a beast!
That's terrific fact finding. I think hollinger made a big mistake predicting a Manu decline.
It's a lot easier for him to be efficient when you have the greatest PF in NBA history playing with you, as opposed to Kwame Brown or Drew Gooden. Not to mention Parker > Daniel Gibson/Derek Fisher, Bruce Bowen > Larry Hughes/Luke Walton, as well as a loaded bench, as opposed to two teams with zero bench. Simply replace Manu with Kobe, and Kobe would probably 25-30 ppg on 50% shooting in the same amount of time as Manu.
Manu is simply having a hot start, and it will die down. The other guys mentioned are always just that good.
Hollinger gets caught up in pure numbers, sometimes. He doesn't use his brain to discern that Manu started his NBA career at 25, so at 30, he'll have FAR fewer miles than a 29 YO Kobe Bryant.Quote:
Originally Posted by doldrums
Manu career RS and playoff minutes 12786
Kobe career RS and playoff minutes 33768
Yes, but its not like he didn't play any basketball minutes before the NBA. Also, since he's been in the NBA he's played more minutes per year than most players. I think its hard to compare without knowing his previous minutes so to speak.Quote:
Originally Posted by exstatic
Newsflash: Tim ain't playing for shit right now, and Parker is up and down. Manu is the rock for the Spurs right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Oh, and I don't think anyone one this list is going to score "25-30 ppg on 50% shooting" on Manu's 12 FGA per game. :lmao That's an impossibility. You'd have to shoot 100% (24pts) and get a bunch of And1s and shoot well on those, too. Manu doesn't break the offense, yet puts up nice numbers in a reduced role. Kobe could NEVER do that. Hell, he didn't even want to split the shots TWO ways, with Shaq. His pride would never allow him to be one of three options on offense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Manu isn't starting and is often playing when our best players are NOT on the floor, so I don't completely see your argument.
Never said that was the case. However, Euro games are only 40 minutes, compared to 48 for the NBA, and they play maybe 40-50 games a season. Consider his pre-NBA minutes to be about half of what they would have been in the NBA.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Truth #6
That is just FLAT FUCKING WRONG. Manu's minutes for his career are under 28 per game.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Truth #6
This season, Im quite concerned that Spurs just aren't that good when Manu isn't on the floor. Parker with the ball gives me jitters. Duncan is only great when he's hot.
I would like to see Koby's numbers in 28 MPGQuote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Of course if He is willing to play 28 MPG.
Maybe he's only great on offense when he's hot, his defense is pretty reliable even in an off game.Quote:
Originally Posted by bdictjames
I'll grant you that. I fully expect Ginobili's numbers to dip a bit once Duncan and Parker's stabilize.Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
All the same, what he's doing right now, off the bench, is phenomenal.
I don't think anybody here thinks Manu > Lebron, Kobe or TMac. He just fits better with this team.Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Give Manu as many touches as Kobe gets a game and he probably averages 27 a night.Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
If Manu plays this level for next two months and does not make All Star Team, I am not watching All Star Game. Hopefully Charles Barkley too!!Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Parker1
This is a summary of your overall lack of understanding of basketball. I recommend you to pull the calculator and rethink your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Try watching a Spurs game. Manu creates alot of his own opportunities. At times he will not/cannot be denied. He does it a great deal of the time when the second unit is in. Get a clue.Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Don't 4get MeloQuote:
Originally Posted by Rick Von Braun
25.7/5/5.2
:smokin
It's a lot easier for Terry to be efficient when you have a great PF in the NBA playing with you, as opposed to Kwame Brown or Drew Gooden. Not to mention Harris> Daniel Gibson/Derek Fisher, Josh Howard > Larry Hughes/Luke Walton, as well as a loaded bench, as opposed to two teams with zero bench. Simply replace Terry with Kobe, and Kobe would probably 40-50 ppg on 80% shooting in the same amount of time as Terry.
Terry is simply having a hot start, and it will die down. The other guys mentioned are always just that good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by King23
Even the most hardcore Manu fan couldn't have predicted this good of a start. His play over the first ten games has been nothing short of stunning. I seriously think Manu is playing his role for the Spurs better than anyone in the league could play it.
My question is if this is the best ten game stretch of his career? I know he was a monster in the 2005 playoffs but even then he had some off games mixed in.
:lol at exstatic.
Take away the deep thigh buise that practically incapacitated him for 2.5 games in the middle of the finals, and I would say the '05 run is more impressive. Actually, given the pressure of the playoffs, I think I still have to go with '05.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
That being said, his start to this season has been incredible. The fact that he is so efficient, and has done this for the most part within the framework of the offense is stunning. There isn't another player on the planet that can do what Manu does. As far as I'm concerned, there's not a better player to compliment Parker and Duncan either.
nope,he had some better moments.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
In feb 2005,when he won that game in Phoenix for as with 48 pts in overtime, he was the player of the month, I'm not sure if it was just the western conference or the whole NBA.
And thanks to that Month of Feb, he actually had a chance to be in his 1st all star game.
Yeah, adding in the fact that it's the playoffs, the 2005 playoffs was no doubt the best stretch of games in Manu's career. Not only that, it had to be one of the best stretches of basketball played by anyone in the last decade of the NBA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Austin
That said, there wasn't a ten game stretch during that period in which he averaged 20, 5 and 5. In fact, I don't see any ten game stretch in Manu's career in which he averaged 20, 5 and 5 other than the first ten games of this sesaon.
It's also worth noting that no player has ever averaged 20, 5 and 5 in less than 30 minutes played. The fewest amount of minutes anyone has average 20, 5, 5 is 31.5 minutes by Ray Williams of the Knicks in '79-80. Ginobili is currently averaging 28.9 minutes per game.
For the Hollinger lovers out there . . .
Top Eight PER Seasons of All-Time
1) Wilt Chamberlain, '62-63 - 31.8
2) Wilt Chamberlain, '61-62 - 31.8
3) Michael Jordan, '87-88 - 31.7
4) Michael Jordan, '90-91 - 31.6
5) Wilt Chamberlain, '63-64 - 31.6
6) Michael Jordan, '89-90 - 31.2
7) Michael Jordan, '88-89 - 31.1
8) David Robinson, '93-94 - 30.7
Currently, Manu Ginobili's PER is 33.27 :smokin
That's a lot of Micheal and Wilt's. :lol
damn! :dizzyQuote:
Originally Posted by timvp
Fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by E20
LeBron's 8 assists are pretty impressive, if these numbers are true!
He's on a pretty crappy team, so the fact that he finds scorers at that rate is incredible!
to have those numbers playing less than 30 minutes and with 12 shots a game, that AMAZING. Never seen ANYTHING close to that.
He is almost averaging two points per shot taken!!!! AMAZING!
Trying to downplay, Manu, huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
He is on the second team and usually doesn't have Duncan or Parker. Compare his minutes per game along with McGrady, Bryant and LeBron and you will see that he is very efficient with the limited minutes he is playing.
In short, he does not jack a lot of shots to get his points.
It does not surprise me that you can take one of DRob's early 90s seasons and find that he performed at the level of the greatest of all time. Unfortunately his supporting casts back then consisted of Negele Knight, Donald Royal, etc...
Don't forget such studs as JR Reid, Vinny Del Negro, Monty Williams, and a one legged Vinny Johnson.Quote:
Unfortunately his supporting casts back then consisted of Negele Knight, Donald Royal,
and avery
Come on guys, playing along side Dwayne Schintzius made David the player he was. :dramaquee :lol :toast
if half the players could hit their shots he would average 10+ assists easily. But you could say for most players. :smokinQuote:
Originally Posted by freemeat
:lmao @ E20
that post was gold!!
Fucking LMAOQuote:
Originally Posted by E20
Here we go again...comparing a bench player who plays the majority of his LIMITED minutes against the second string vs Lebron and Kobe.....hillarious really. You place Manu on an NBA team that he's the first option, you'll see different #'s. Is he having a great season...yes, probably statistically his best season, but to put in on the level of those aformentioned players, is not valid.
Manu > Kobe so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medvedenko
Odom and Farmar are the stars of the Lakers. Not Kobe. What is his shooting percentage this season again?
how about jason kidds stats so far he's averaging almost a triple double. Now thats crazy for a point guard.
11.7 pts
9.3 rebs
10.5 assists
Aren't age and minutes pure numbers?Quote:
Originally Posted by exstatic
In this case, minutes hold more relevance than age.Quote:
Originally Posted by mabber
Kobe may still be young, but he's definitely a player with a lot of mileage. Hence the knee problems he's had.
This is also why I think Parker may decline at an earlier age than most people expect. He's pretty young too, but those minutes (especially considering he's been in the playoffs every year since he came into the league) will take their toll sooner or later.
Nope. The difference this year isn't just a hot start. It's largely due to the fact that he now gets to be "the man" on the floor more often. As a sub, he's getting more time with Tim and Tony on the bench, which gives him more latitude to show what he can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
The fact that he actually rested (no international play) this summer helped as well.
If Manu doesn't finish the season as a 20-5-5 guy, he'll be damned close. Bet on it.
No one "compared" him to those players. They simply pointed out the numbers. Argue with them if you like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medvedenko
I think Kobe and Lebron are better players, but Manu is one of the top 10 talents in the league. Given a chance to play more often with Tim and Tony on the bench this year, his numbers should be more reflective of his ability.
His effectiveness at the rim will probably be curtailed, but I doubt that injuries will be the reason, a la a high flyer like Kobe. Tony has also taken steps to ensure that he doesn't have to finish at the rim: the teardrop and the jumper. Even with his early entry at 19, I think that by the time his athleticism begins to decline, he'll be smart enough player to still be very effective. While he's played more minutes than Manu, he could never be described as playing "heavy NBA minutes". This year is his highest average minutes, and he's only playing 34.9. Most All Star calibur players play in the neighborhood of 38-39 minutes. Doesn't sound like a huge difference, but if you take Tony's career 33 mpg and compare it to another player's 38 mpg, that 5 mpg X 80 games, or about 400 extra minutes, or 10+ extra games for the other player, per season. Pop is a genius for managing the Spurs minutes.Quote:
This is also why I think Parker may decline at an earlier age than most people expect. He's pretty young too, but those minutes (especially considering he's been in the playoffs every year since he came into the league) will take their toll sooner or later.
When did anyone say shotting 12 times a game? I merely mention the amount of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by exstatic
And you're a fucking moron to say that just because Tim isn't playing at the high level he usually does, that his presence makes no difference. There is no player in the league who's presence has a bigger effect on their team than Tim Duncan.
Don't forget that Shaq didn't want to give up shots to Kobe either. Tim would be a MUCH better fit as a teammate of Kobe's than Shaq, because Tim doesn't need the ball to be effect like Shaq did, and is a much better teammate and leader than Shaq ever was. Tim Duncan is IMO the greatest teammate and leader in NBA history.
Give Manu the shit team Kobe has, and see if he even averages 20 a night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holt's Cat
I recommend you as well as the other 40 posters here trying to debate with me, to prove to me that Tim Duncan does not help improve Manu's game, and that Manu would be just as effective without Tim Duncan.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpurOutofTownFan
Unfortunately for your argument, no one was talking about Jason Terry having a hot start, were we dipshit?Quote:
Originally Posted by E20
Cmon...he would average 20+ a night easily lol...especially with more playing time and touches. His efficiency would dip no doubt but 20 points is a cakewalk for swingmen today. The rules are catered to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Unfortunately for your argument, no one was talking about the opnion of a dumbass mavs fan having a say, were we dipshit?
Yes. We were.Quote:
Originally Posted by E20
I think he would maybe average around 20-22 a night, but like you said, if he does, its on a far lower shooting %, more in the mid to low 40s because he won't have the easy shots and layups that he gets from the picks Duncan sets, or the opponents double teaming and focusing their defensive attention on Timmy all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmanyr2k
Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Give Manu the shit team Kobe has, and Manu would average close to 30 PPG! Playing on an excellent team with 2 other great scoring options doesn't help Manu's PPG... it hurts it.
Your logic isn't, well... logical.
Yeah, because Manu only makes the easy shots. It's not like we see the guy get the shit knocked out of him on a nightly basis as he pinballs his way through the lane or anything. You obviously watch a lot of Spurs basketball. Why, I'm sure you hardly ever miss a game.Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
:lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Kent_in_Atlanta
What is stretch trying to argue? Ginobili can't score without Duncan or Parker? Because he does and he can. Ginobili plays with the 2nd unit for the bulk of the 1st half and 3rd quarter and is present with TP/TD during the 4Q. So, I don't see much for debate. Ginobili has always been a proven scorer when he gets touches. This year he had 3 months of rest which has given him fresh legs and energy. Ginobil has even said multiple times that his level of play is thanks to all the rest he has gotten and has said he's gonna see how he feels and plays at the end of the year. He usually plays better towards the end of the year/PO's.
I never once said he can't score without Duncan or Parker. My point is that would not be as effective or efficient as the numbers show, without Duncan. Can you argue that? Can you honestly say that he would be just as good of a player without Tim Duncan playing with him? I don't think there is a player in NBA history that would improve without playing alongside Tim Duncan. I have always had nothing but the best things to say about Duncan, including that he is the greatest PF and teammate of all time. I don't think there is a better player in NBA history at making his teammates better by making things easier for them. If anything, many of you Spurs fans should be happy, since many people here have said that Duncan doesn't get the respect he deserves. I think it is very arguable that you can say that Tim Duncan is the second greatest player in NBA history, behind Michael Jordan, and in my list, he is.Quote:
Originally Posted by E20
What about Brent Barry? He's had better seasons in Seattle and led the league in 3PT% in Seattle this has nothing to do with the argument, just wanted to point a misnomer. :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Tim Duncan puts pressure off of Ginobili in the 4thQ, but what about when Duncan is off the floor? When the offense runs through Ginobili with the 2nd unit. That's the sole reason for Manu to come off the bench -- to give the team a scoring threat while resting Duncan/Parker. I'm willing to say taht Ginobili scores most of his 20 PPG and does his work with Duncan and/or Parker on the bench, because that is when he gets the most touches.
Also, I agree that Tim Duncan makes the game much easier for everybody else.
Also, if Manu was in the same position as Kobe or Lebron and played the same minutes, his stats would rise, but his FG% would decline and TO's would rise.
Wow, Ginobili's out-rebounding McGrady? Damn.
Manu can make 30 per night if he gets the ball, but that is no needed in Spurs team. Team play = championships.Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
you right about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
IF he can average 20 ppg with the spurs system,playing with 2 great scores in the league like TP and TD, He'll probably average 30 ppg in 39 mpgs in a shity team. Just like Kobe. :rolleyes
And this was where the comparisons became ridiculous. There is NO comparison between Kobe, T-Mac, Lebron, and then Manu. Those guys are all in another class of player, and any non-homer fan knows that. That was my point the whole time. Don't get me wrong, Manu is a wonderful player, and I really admire the way he plays the game, and wish more people would play like him, especially with his heart, effort, and determination. The league needs more of that. I'm just saying that its ridiculous to say that he is on the same level of those players, just because he is off to a pretty hot start. You homers get your panties in a wad far too easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArgSpursFan.
what you mean by deferent level??Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
lower level they are at ???
I would say:same level.
Homer. :rolleyesQuote:
Originally Posted by ArgSpursFan.
he's not a homer... he's a complete fucking idiot!Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc
fuck off biotch.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc
Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
If he's getting 40 touches a night like Kobe does, no problem.
Manu is God.
End of story.
Kobe shoots it 20-25 times a night. Not to mention, he gets double and sometimes even triple teamed EVERY time he touches the ball. Manu virtually never has to worry about being double teamed, because of his team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holt's Cat
Manu is never doubled? That's a new one. Lest we forget that he's been the man on other teams (Kinder Bologna, Argentine National) on which he was the man.Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
That's a myth. No wing player gets double and triple teamed every time they touch the ball. Kobe got one on one treatment against the Spurs. Kobe got one on one treatment the whole night against the Pistons on Friday. Got the same one on one defense last night with the Bulls. The only time teams truly collapse on him is when he gets in the paint and that happens to EVERY wing player who gets into the paint.Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Compared to what Kobe has to face? It's nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holt's Cat
yeah, didnt you see the triple teams the raptor's were throwing at kobe when he went for 81? and the cheap shots? there are so many good defenders in the NBA, and so many good teams, and they're all just waiting for kobe to show up so they can kill him on national television!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
manu never gets that kind of defensive attention. certainly not when argentina beat the US NT in indiana (that was all oberto), definitely not in athens (scola!), and definitely not in the playoffs with the NBA champs (duncan, duh). did you see the denver series in 05? they just rolled out the red carpet and said "we can live with that scrub ginobili bricking layups, just dont let barry get hot from 3!." it worked so good that seattle and detroit did the same thing. that manu guy can only score when other people are doing all the hard work of creating an easy shot for him, like jaque vaughn and pepe sanchez. there is no way a team led by manu could beat a team led by lebron or ai, not to mention a team with carlos boozer or duncan. kobe could beat all of those guys at the same time, and he wouldnt even need more than one or two nba players and a coach no one has ever heard of.
actually, kobe has the 4th best bench in the NBA and a hof-er coach, and he has a hard time beating teams with 1/8th the talent of team USA. the only time he ever won anything was when he played with shaq. yet it's manu that depends on duncan for success??? :drunk
Fantastic numbers on Manu so far. All that while still averaging less than 30 minutes a game.
Manu is not worthy of tying Kobe's shoes.
So Manu is only a good player because of Duncan ?
So let's look at the number.
It's the number from the 06-07 regular season from 82games.com:
Manu stats per 40 min with Duncan (Manu played 1400min with Duncan) :
FGA : 15.1
FG%: .474
FTA: 7.1
Rebounds : 6.7
Assists : 4.1
Turnovers : 2.7
Blocks : 0.5
Stl : 2.0
Points : 22.9
Manu stats per 40 min without Duncan (Manu played 659min without Duncan) :
FGA : 19.8
FG%: .443
FTA: 7.4
Rebounds : 5.8
Assists : 7.2 :smokin
Turnovers : 3.6
Blocks : 0.5
Stl : 2.3
Points : 26.7 :smokin
Manu has a lower FG% without Duncan but it's not a disaster (you had to consider that he takes a lot of 3's).
Without Duncan, Manu scored last season 26.7points per 40 minutes. For reference Lebron James scored 26.7points per 40 minutes last year.
7.2 assists per 40 min is also damn impressive for someone who isn't a PG.
And the scary thing is that Manu is, for the moment, way better than last year.
By looking at these numbers, it's quite evident that Manu is a great player because of Duncan. :lol
You left one guy off the list that i like the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Von Braun
Josh Howard
33.1 minutes per game
23 ppg
55% fg
35% 3 pt
86% FT
5.9 Rebounds
Howard isn't a 20/5/5 player.Quote:
Originally Posted by 41times
wtf????????Quote:
Originally Posted by 41times
howard is averaging 22.9, 5.9, and 1.9.
:clapQuote:
Originally Posted by diego
Seems a bit flukish for Manu to start off this hot. Tony and Tim are lagging a bit on offense, so I expect it to level off. Its possible Manu might be a little more effective on offense then both of them for a solid portion of the season, but its doubtful he has a +10%TS edge, and 5-6PPG more per 40 minutes by playoff time.
His PER in the 05 Playoffs was 25, but what was more impressive was that he was more effective on offense then Tim Duncan statistically, and also the fact that Parker wasn't too good offensively for most of the playoffs -- yet Manu still found a way to score at an astounding productivity.
His last two playoffs IMO have been a disappointment, especially compared 2005. He looked very good at times, but other times a non-factor. I really hope Manu can keep this up somewhat and bring back the 05 Manu in the playoffs. Would be a huge treat for the fans and be a huge boost to the Spurs title hopes.
Come on! that last two playoffs, he's been great. Just because he hasn't been amazing like in 2005 doesn't mean he wasn't great. Last playoffs he might have had a few games where he should've played better, but overall I think he played awesome ball. You speak as if he hasn't contributed in the past two post seasons. That's bull and you know it. Without Manu the 2007 championship goes bye bye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikos
This season came out of nowhere though. Unexpected would be an understatement. Not only because Manu doesn't usually kick it up into high gear until later on in the season, but because the gear he is on right now, he's not supposed to have :lol
seriously these spurs fans are something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by smeagol
when i was upset about our loss against the rockets..i was hit with "its only november" responses. but a day later when manu's barely decent stats (thats what they are, nothing special) are posted they compare him to wilt and jordan
:lol
I know right? His stats are nothing special. That's why we need to dump his ass. And compared to Wilt and Jordan??? :lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by TradeManu4Kobe
Totally agree with this guy. :tu
beno anyone?
:lol
RIFQuote:
Originally Posted by 41times
You agree with yourself?Quote:
Originally Posted by TradeParker4Nash
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deimosfobos
I think they're different guys. But they are dating each other! :drunk
WEll I put emphasys in rings - those guys don't bring any. Manu has always played this good more or less - you just haven't watched him for so long (this is clear as you demonstrate it again and again on each post you enter).Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Why? Why are they in another class of player? What have TMac and Lebron done over Manu here or overseas? sell more t-shirts? I think Kobe is great but it looks to me he's on decline or he was always just this good but had Shaq with him (hence getting 3 rings)Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
I can't compare Kobe to Lebron - they are different. I can't compare T_Mac with Lebron, they are different. If you ask me what is the most complete players today in the league: Lebron. He's the most complete BBaller now.
So why do you think Manu is not in the same level? Is that what media says? is that in proportion to sales? branding? etc? I haven't seen anything special from T-Mac in years. Kobe looks like a whinny bitch and we all know his team won't make it to the finals. Lebron plays with a B team.
I'm not even talking about numbers posted. Forget about that. You need to watch more Manu games. You need to get to watch what he has done when he was in Europe or the national team. Only then you will have a better understanding of what you are trying to judge here. Only then.
PS. I applaud your spirit and the time you waste in this forum.