D-League: Vipers at Toros, tonight and tomorrow!

Much has changed for Toros, Vipers

By Todd Mavreles
January 4, 2008 - 12:35AM The Monitor
http://www.themonitor.com/sports/vip...ns_austin.html

McALLEN — Change is the theme of the NBA Development League, and perhaps no pair of teams know the effect of that than the Rio Grande Vipers and Austin Toros, who play at 7 tonight at the Austin Convention Center.

The last time the Vipers and Toros met, Austin emerged with an exciting 119-113 victory. Both teams have changed dramatically since that Dec. 11 game, which they’ll find out first-hand when they renew acquaintances today as well as Saturday in Austin.

The Vipers (9-5) have lost guard Aaron Brooks (recalled by the Houston Rockets) and forwards Steve Novak (recalled by the Rockets), Gabe Muoneke (signed with a team in Spain), Jarred Merrill (signed with a team in Lebanon) and Kevin Bookout (injury) since that loss. Then earlier this week they added 6-foot-9 forward/center Cedric Simmons when the Cleveland Cavaliers assigned him to the team.

Before Simmons arrived, half the team was 6-foot-3 or under with 6-10 center Jesse Smith the only player over 6-6. Whatever Simmons can provide on offense will be a bonus. Where he’ll really make an impact is on the defensive end.

“That’s the one place we needed help,” Vipers guard Craig Winder said. “We were good scrambling (on defense) but at the end teams could just punch it inside on us. Now we’ve got a threat down there so that will help us out a whole lot.”

The Southwest Division leading Toros (10-4), meanwhile, have had the San Antonio Spurs call up guards Darius Washington and Marcus Williams and forwards Keith Langford and DerMarr Johnson since the last time they played the Vipers.

One Spurs assignment the Toros still have, however, is center Ian Mahinmi. The 6-11 Mahinmi, the Spurs’ first-round pick in the 2005 NBA Draft, is averaging 18.5 points and 7.9 rebounds per game.

Simmons, who played in four games this season with the Cavaliers and 43 with New Orleans in 2006-07, will be matched up against Mahinmi in what arguably will be one of the NBA Development League’s marquee individual battles this season.

“I’m just going to try and compete and play and continue my recovery and not think about him,” Simmons said. “I heard he’s a pretty good player.”

While Simmons will be counted on to make an immediate contribution against Mahinmi and the rest of Austin’s front line, the Vipers figure to have a decided advantage in the backcourt thanks to C.J. Watson, the league’s player of the month.

Watson is averaging 25.4 points, 5.1 rebounds and 5.2 assists per game. He led the way as the undermanned Vipers picked up road wins at Fort Wayne and Iowa last week with just an eight-man roster.

Watson hasn’t been doing it all alone, as Kenny Taylor is scoring 15.4 points a game. Taylor has been blowing up of late, pouring in 29.7 points a night in his last three games and shooting 18-of-36 on 3-pointers.

The Vipers will need the continued contributions from Watson and Taylor as well as Simmons’ inside presence if they’re to leapfrog Austin in the division standings this weekend.

“Coach (Bob Hoffman) told us it’s going to be tough,” Vipers forward Quin Humphrey said. “We’ve got to play them back-to-back. The main thing he was stressing (at Wednesday’s practice) was mindset. We have to go out there and have a good mindset and try to take control of the game early. We have to be ready from the start.”

Todd Mavreles covers the Rio Grande Valley Vipers for The Monitor. You can reach him at (956) 683-4451.

It's showing up on the beta webcast schedule in case anyone wants to tune in.

http://www.nba.com/dleague/webcastDleague.html

Sweet. Thanks Chump.

Simmons will probably be a solid player down the line. I like his potential a lot. The Cavs got a steal on him from the Hornets.

Cedric gave me a pair of his game worn shoes at the last game of the year last year in Oklahoma City. Hes a pretty cool guy.

:hungry: Mahinmi vs. Simmons.

I've never been too impressed with Simmons on the NBA level. Good athlete and still has a lot of room for improvement but can get pushed around pretty easily, doesn't have a very high basketball IQ and always seems to get hurt. That said, he'll most likely be the best player Mahinmi has faced all season.

This should be a good indicator of how far Mahinmi is in his development. Simmons was the 15th overall draft pick last year. If Simmons wins this matchup, it'd be safe to say Mahinmi is still a ways off from being a true NBA player. If Mahinmi wins the matchup, it might be the time to start planning when Mahinmi can get a shot to replace Elson.

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Originally Posted by timvp

I've never been too impressed with Simmons on the NBA level. Good athlete and still has a lot of room for improvement but can get pushed around pretty easily, doesn't have a very high basketball IQ and always seems to get hurt. That said, he'll most likely be the best player Mahinmi has faced all season.

This should be a good indicator of how far Mahinmi is in his development. Simmons was the 15th overall draft pick last year. If Simmons wins this matchup, it'd be safe to say Mahinmi is still a ways off from being a true NBA player. If Mahinmi wins the matchup, it might be the time to start planning when Mahinmi can get a shot to replace Elson.

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Simmons was fairly capable in his limited time with the Hornets last year. He did struggle at times to get on the court and spent time in Byron Scott's now epic doghouse (strange how players like Bostjan Nachbar and Brandon Bass blossomed once they left Scott's care). His scoring ability seriously lagged his rebounding and shotblocking prowess...where he has legit NBA talent. However, I do agree with the comment that his BBIQ is lacking. Still, hes young (would be a college senior this year if he hadn't come out early) and came at a bargain price for the Cavs. I agree that Mahinmi's performance against Simmons will be indicative of how far progressed he is. But at the same time, Simmons is a player that has struggled with acquiring (and holding) post position in the past because of a lack of strength. So if Ian can overpower him down low then it isn't as big of a deal as if Simmons can do the same to Ian.

Ian going for 40 and 20. :smokin :drunk

I wouldn't be surprised to see Simmons overplaying Mahinmi. Simmons was a lottery pick, is one year older than Ian and has played significant nba minutes. We will see maybe Ian will continue to be better than expected or maybe Simmons isn't at 100% for the moment.

Do the Toros have Marcus Williams back for this game?

Yes.

I just hope the Spurs don't end up signing CJ Watson after these two games . . .

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I wouldn't be surprised to see Simmons overplaying Mahinmi. Simmons was a lottery pick, is one year older than Ian and has played significant nba minutes. We will see maybe Ian will continue to be better than expected or maybe Simmons isn't at 100% for the moment.

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Simmons was a lottery pick in an extremely weak draft though. His draft rank is a little skewed.

With about 50 seconds left:
Ian 23 pts,6 rbs, 9-9 ft's, 2pf
Simmons 10pts, 8rbs, 5pf

Not to bad...

Mahinmi with:
30:07 playing time
7-11 FG
9-9 FT
6 rebounds
2 fouls
23 points

Kris Lang with:
34:16 playing time
13-18 FG
6-8 FT
7 rebounds
2 assists
1 block
2 fouls
32 points

Marcus Williams with:
30:40 playing time
5-13 FG
2-4 3PT
3-4 FT
6 rebounds
7 assists
4 fouls
15 points

Marcus Williams was HORRIBLE from the field tonight. He cleaned it up a bit late, but he still couldn't hit the broad side of a barn down the stretch.

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Originally Posted by Darkwaters

Marcus Williams was HORRIBLE from the field tonight. He cleaned it up a bit late, but he still couldn't hit the broad side of a barn down the stretch.

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He started 1-7 and then did decently from there. Not great, but certainly not horrible.

Toros tame Vipers

1/4/2008 10:25 PM By: Toros Media Relations
http://www.news8austin.com/content/s...197514&SecID=5

AUSTIN -- In a game befitting the new rivalry between the two Texas D-League teams, several players had to be cleaned up after cuts in the 1st half. In the end, the Austin Toros outlasted the Rio Grande Valley Vipers 115-107. The teams will meet again Saturday night, also at the Austin Convention Center.

Kris Lang, one of the bandaged players, recorded a season-high 32-points in just his 3rd game with the Toros. The former North Carolina Tar Heel was 13-of-18 shooting, displaying an array of hook shots, short jumpers and emphatic slam dunks.

RGV led 81-79 after three quarters. But that would be the Vipers’ last lead of the game. Toros guard Kenton Paulino hit a three pointer to put Austin in front 82-81. Paulino would hit 2 more three-pointers, including one with 2:10 remaining give Austin a 10 point lead, 108-98. One minute later, Spurs Assignee Ian Mahinmi would give Austin its largest lead at 111-100 on a two-handed dunk. Paulino finished with a season-high 14-points, all in the 4th quarter.

The Toros had 5 players score in double-figures (Lang 32, Mahinmi 23, Justin Bowen 20, Marcus Williams 15 & Paulino 14).

CJ Watson led RGV with 27 points, including 4 three-pointers. Craig Winder, who played his college basketball a few miles away at the University of Texas, scored 23 points for the Vipers off the bench.

The Vipers took a 52-50 halftime lead after CJ Watson intercepted a pass and scored a layup with 3-seconds left in the 2nd quarter. The first half was back and forth, with six ties and five lead changes. RGV outrebounded Austin 24-16 in the 1st half.

Austin improves to 11-4 on the season (9-0 at home). Rio Grande Valley falls to 9-6 on the season (4-4 on the road).

I've watched the webcast. It didn't work that well so I've missed some plays.

Mahinmi picked two fouls in the first 2 minutes (an offensive one battling for the position and one defending Simmons). He didn't pick another foul during the game even if it was clear that in the second quarter his main goal was not to pick his third PF. Mahinmi has a quite good game but I wasn't that impressed by him. He was aggressive on the offensive end but didn't show a lot of skills. The thing I've like the most was a nice 20 footer he hit. He struggle rebounding the ball, he was too passive.

Kris Lang dominate the game. Vipers were too weak inside for a player with his skills, size and strength. Simmons should be their only good interior player and he was in foul trouble. Bowen has a nice game, he really busts his ass. Paulino was clutch. Reed didn't look good, let's hope it's because he is rusty.

For Vipers, Simmons do some good things but he committed a lot of stupid fouls. He quite dominate Mahinmi the few times he faced him. CJ Watson dominates a lot the ball but with success. Craig Winder, a former longhorn, took fire in that game.

Toros' arena looked quite bad. I don't know if it's the case in reality but it didn't look good on TV. There were almost no one in sections of the camera's field. The building didn't look made to host basketball, even more D-League team.

Anyway, it's was a fun game to watch. I will try to watch today's game by hoping that the webcast will work better and that Mahinmi will face more Simmons in this game.

Was there only one camera for the webcast? I didn't see the other two that have usually been used.

Anyway, you're right about Ian. I was a little surprised he was kept out so long after that second foul. He didn't foul again but looked pretty snakebit from then on.

Vipers coach Bob Hoffman reminded me a lot of Don Nelson last night. He took a glaring negative - having only two big men available - and tried to turn it to his advantage by pushing the tempo and creating mismatches on the offensive end. This kept them close the entire game against twin towers lineup the Toros used most of the game (some combination of Ian, Lang and Fuqua). For every Kris Lang layin over a 6'5" defender there was a Viper guard making our big men chase them around the perimeter. The Vipers also played a very aggressive gambling defense that would have frustrated less disciplined teams, but the Toros answered with great ball movement, racking up 32 assisted baskets out of 43 total.

- The Toros' point guards had their hands full guarding CJ Watson and did pretty well for the most part; Watson only really went off in the third quarter where he scored about half his points. There individual offenses were practically nonexistent however with Squeaky Johnson only getting two baskets and Cheyene Gadson missing his only shot in over 18 minutes. They did a good job of distributing and taking care of the ball (Squeaky had 9 assists and 5 turnovers, Gadson 6 assists and 0 turnovers), but they need to make the Viper guards work more on the defensive end.

- Marcus Williams had a bad shooting night early as mentioned but did make a couple of threes later in the game and was a good catalyst in transition where he got most of his 7 assists. He was a bit slow on his rotations which hurt a lot considering how well and often the Vipers were shooting from the arc most of the game, but that can be said for most of the Toros that game.

- Kris Lang benefited hugely from the presence of Ian, who was always guarded by whichever of the two Viper big men were playing at the time. That left Kris to be covered by one of the four guards that were left on the floor, so much of his night just looked like shooting drills. Hoffman will have to make the choice today which big man he wants to guard. None of the Toros' big men did a great job of rebounding given their size advantage, the Vipers kept them out of position a lot shooting perimeter jumpers and the Viper guards crashed the boards pretty effectively; they got 14 offensive rebounds and were only -1 in total rebounds for the game.

- Justin Reed is quicker than I remember, and he's in pretty good shape but he didn't do a whole lot this first game. Most of the recent additions to the Toros (save DerMarr Johnson) have had at least some previous experience with the Spurs system. Reed has none, so it may just take a few weeks for him to get better integrated.

- The other Justin -- Bowen -- had another really solid game, showing what he can do when he is actually used as an option on offense. He hit two three pointers from the top of the arc. We'll see if that becomes his spot. The biggest knock on him this game was that he was slow to rotate to the arc on defense, but that was true for just about all the Toros.

- Kenton Paulino had some crunch time three pointers as Bruno said, and had some nice hustle plays as well, but still looks like he has some conditioning issues. He knows and plays his role well, which means a lot.

- Given the speed of the Vipers lineup, it's not clear if Anthony Fuqua has permanently replaced Kevin Pittsnogle as the backup big man in the Toros rotation, but it was Kevin's first DNP-CD that I can remember. Fuqua didn't put up big numbers but did the best job of covering the smaller Vipers on the perimeter. He seems to make on ridiculous mistake per game; if he doesn't let it get to him he usually remains effective.

- I was a little antsy about coach Snyder's sticking with tall ball most of the game, especially since the Vipers were rebounding so effectively with their small lineups and the fact that the Toros have some very good small ball PFs. The Toros pulled it out in the end however. Hopefully Quin can motivate the team to rotate a little better and stick with the defensive effort through the entire possession. The Vipers have good patience for such an uptempo team, and the Toros could easily lose if they continue to fail closing out on their shooters late in the shot clock.

- Bruno was right in saying the convention center is not a dedicated sports venue, it's an exhibit hall with hardwood and bleachers thrown in. The webcam is set up at the top of the main seating section which is over twice as large as the stands behind the scorers' table and benches. That's where most of the crowd is, though I would love to see more people watching the best team in the league. The Toros are undefeated at home and most of the games are competitive well into the fourth quarter. It's possible that the Toros could draw better in an actual sports arena, but there are no 4-5,000 seat arenas in town. There is one being planned just north of Austin, but the Ice Bats hockey team is going to be the main tenant. It's unclear whether the Spurs would like being at the mercy of the Dallas Stars' affiliate when it comes to scheduling, but that kind of arrangement seems to be working well for the Vipers in Dodge arena. The Vipers are drawing well over 3,000 a game. I'd love to see that kind of turnout for Toros games, but I would miss the intimacy the convention center now provides.

I definitely encourage any true basketball fans to come see a game. I have a couple of vouchers I'm have to figure out a plan to give away, and I want to float the idea of having a GTG for the game against the Utah Flash while the Spurs are out on the rodeo road trip. How about it?

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

I want to float the idea of having a GTG for the game against the Utah Flash while the Spurs are out on the rodeo road trip. How about it?

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What date is that? We would probably be up for it, we've been thinking about coming out there soon. Maybe you could give me a contact person's name and I could arrange a block of tickets for SpursTalk'ers together?

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

I definitely encourage any true basketball fans to come see a game. I have a couple of vouchers I'm have to figure out a plan to give away, and I want to float the idea of having a GTG for the game against the Utah Flash while the Spurs are out on the rodeo road trip. How about it?

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I'm in for that. I don't need a voucher or anything but just let me know about the details for the GTG. I'm studying to get my series 7 license this month so I won't be on the board very much , but just post a message or something on the main.

BTW, I agree that the convention center isn't a sports venue...I don't see why they don't let them play in the Erwin Center. Must have something to do with UT being territorial...


As for Ian looks like he outplayed guys touted as being better players, that's a positive.

Bruno..with young players like that you won't see their best game every night, and if you do, then they are on their way to being a star player. The difference between the stars and regular players is that the stars do it almost every night.

In any case...Ian's numbers are nice. I remain surprised that his shotblocking and rebounding are the weakest parts of his game and his offense is the best so far...I'd have expected exactly the opposite...I say this bodes well for his NBA future though as I think his rebounding and shotblocking will come along eventually, those are effort and practice/skill attributes...but offense? You can't teach offense, so the fact that he has offensive talent is definitely a huge plus.

The game would be Friday February 1.

I'll give Rick a heads up about it tonight. His email address is [email protected]

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Originally Posted by whottt

I agree that the convention center isn't a sports venue...I don't see why they don't let them play in the Erwin Center. Must have something to do with UT being territorial...

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I think the rent would be pretty high and scheduling would be a real bear. Anyway it's really large for the crowds a D-league team would get.

Quote:

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In any case...Ian's numbers are nice. I remain surprised that his shotblocking and rebounding are the weakest parts of his game and his offense is the best so far...I'd have expected exactly the opposite...I say this bodes well for his NBA future though as I think his rebounding and shotblocking will come along eventually, those are effort and practice/skill attributes...but offense? You can't teach offense, so the fact that he has offensive talent is definitely a huge plus.

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Like I said, he was snakebit so he went back to stay-in-the-game-at-all-costs mode which kept his feet firmly planted on the floor on defense. Hopefully he can find a balance soon. I want him to take more of those jumpers from the free throw line extended. Having Lang on this team is going to force Ian to expand his offense, which is great.

Thanks for the reports in this thread. Nice job :tu

Looks like another good Toros win. My only concern is whether Kris Lang's presence will hinder the development of Mahinmi. There's little doubt that Lang is better than Pittsnogle but the nice thing about Pittsnogle is he'd camp out at the three-point line give Mahinmi the entire inside to roam. Now with Lang in the middle, that might clog things up.

I still struggle to see the point in having Lang on the team. He's not an NBA level player, so it's not like his development matters. He helps the Toros win games, which I guess is the main concern right now. Not sure if that's the best way to use a D-League team but it's always nice to win . . .

Regarding Mahinmi, his stats have dropped in the last couple games but a good sign about his development is he's kept the team afloat no matter who is around him. That's a pretty good trait to have in a developing player. I'm sure Quin Snyder deserves some props as well.

While I wasn't too impressed with Justin Bowen's size or strength the one time I saw the Toros play, he might be worth calling up in place of Langford right now. He probably has as much NBA potential as Langford and could really become something once he gets stronger. Although he looked pretty short on that grainy video I saw ... hopefully he's actually somewhat close to his listed height of 6-foot-7. To me, he looked more like 6-foot-5, which would make him much less of a prospect seeing as he's probably more of a small forward in the NBA.

Yeah, ChumpDumper, Kori and I were talking about putting together a Toros GTG. I thought a weekend game would be better but the Toros only play on the weekend on the same day the Spurs play. I haven't been to Austin in years but I imagine the Friday traffic to make a 7PM game would be hellish. But perhaps I'm wrong.

Either way, it appears that the game on Feb. 1 makes the most sense.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Thanks for the reports in this thread. Nice job :tu

Looks like another good Toros win. My only concern is whether Kris Lang's presence will hinder the development of Mahinmi. There's little doubt that Lang is better than Pittsnogle but the nice thing about Pittsnogle is he'd camp out at the three-point line give Mahinmi the entire inside to roam. Now with Lang in the middle, that might clog things up.

I still struggle to see the point in having Lang on the team. He's not an NBA level player, so it's not like his development matters. He helps the Toros win games, which I guess is the main concern right now. Not sure if that's the best way to use a D-League team but it's always nice to win . . .

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I think Lang has enough range that he could play in the key quite a bit. I guess it's a matter of preference, but I'd like to see Ian work a little on his face up game before adding more post moves. I think Lang is a good complement to Ian since he can play the high or low post while Ian works on the other spot. There is a possibility that Ian gets called up this season too, and the Toros would be totally without post scoring if Lang wasn't on the team.

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Regarding Mahinmi, his stats have dropped in the last couple games but a good sign about his development is he's kept the team afloat no matter who is around him. That's a pretty good trait to have in a developing player. I'm sure Quin Snyder deserves some props as well.

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Yeah, he erred on the side of caution last night, but he knows he can influence games without killing every opponent's shot.

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While I wasn't too impressed with Justin Bowen's size or strength the one time I saw the Toros play, he might be worth calling up in place of Langford right now. He probably has as much NBA potential as Langford and could really become something once he gets stronger. Although he looked pretty short on that grainy video I saw ... hopefully he's actually somewhat close to his listed height of 6-foot-7. To me, he looked more like 6-foot-5, which would make him much less of a prospect seeing as he's probably more of a small forward in the NBA.

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I think they Spurs are trying to make a point guard out of Keith, but is a really high energy swingman who just makes things happen when he's on the floor. He lacks a go-to offensive move and a reliable long range shot, and he could stand to put on a few pounds. I'm surprised he didn't make any summer league squads after finishing so strong last season, but playing big minutes during the showcase could help him considerably.

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Yeah, ChumpDumper, Kori and I were talking about putting together a Toros GTG. I thought a weekend game would be better but the Toros only play on the weekend on the same day the Spurs play. I haven't been to Austin in years but I imagine the Friday traffic to make a 7PM game would be hellish. But perhaps I'm wrong.

Either way, it appears that the game on Feb. 1 makes the most sense.

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I guess tonight's game would have been the best had I thought of this before. Getting out of SA will probably be the worst part but it could be awful all the way up here. If you don't want to hunt for a spot, the easiest place to park would be the convention center garage on 5th. I can give all kinds of details if the GTG happens.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Was there only one camera for the webcast?

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Yes. Commentators where Vipers' one. They were quite good except that they have a man love for CJ Watson.

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Originally Posted by whottt

Bruno..with young players like that you won't see their best game every night, and if you do, then they are on their way to being a star player. The difference between the stars and regular players is that the stars do it almost every night.

In any case...Ian's numbers are nice. I remain surprised that his shotblocking and rebounding are the weakest parts of his game and his offense is the best so far...I'd have expected exactly the opposite...I say this bodes well for his NBA future though as I think his rebounding and shotblocking will come along eventually, those are effort and practice/skill attributes...but offense? You can't teach offense, so the fact that he has offensive talent is definitely a huge plus.

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I'm not judging Mahinmi on one game. He had a good game but he could have done better job at rebounding the ball and on the defensive end in this game. As ChumpDumper said, a part of the reason was Vipers small ball and perimeter oriented offense.
During the game, I was surprised to see Mahinmi shooting a technical free throw for a defensive 3 second violation. I first thought that it was a stat padding thing but Mahinmi is in fact one of the best Toros' free throw shooter and hit 80% of his FTs. Mahinmi has a nice shooting touch and form for a bigman. If he could develop a reliable 16-18 ft jumpshoot, it will really useful when he will play with Tim.

And Bowen has had a really nice block during this game. He was just pure energy on this play.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

I think the rent would be pretty high and scheduling would be a real bear. Anyway it's really large for the crowds a D-league team would get.

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Probably true...but I think playing in the Convention Center hurts their attendance.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Yes. Commentators where Vipers' one. They were quite good except that they have a man love for CJ Watson.




I'm not judging Mahinmi on one game. He had a good game but he could have done better job at rebounding the ball and on the defensive end in this game. As ChumpDumper said, a part of the reason was Vipers small ball and perimeter oriented offense.

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Well I agree that his rebounding hasn't been what I expected....but I think it's just acclimating to a different style of play as much as anything...it was the best part of his game in Europe.

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Mahinmi has a nice shooting touch and form for a bigman. If he could develop a reliable 16-18 ft jumpshoot, it will really useful when he will play with Tim.

.

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And to me that offsets any disappointment about his rebounding and shotblocking...I wateched as many games of him playing in Europe as I could get my hands on, and I never saw him with anything remotely resembling an offensive game...he looked much more like a defensive hustle and rebounding type than any kind of an offensive player.


It's a good paradox...I think his rebounding and shotblocking will come around.

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Originally Posted by whottt

Probably true...but I think playing in the Convention Center hurts their attendance.

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Probably, but it's likely pretty cheap which made it more or less a break-even operation for SW Basketball and probably for the Spurs too. I wouldn't mind too much if they end up playing in the Cedar Park arena in a couple of years if the tickets are around the same price. That might open them up to some more corporate sales too. They could probably get a good deal out at the Expo Center but that is way out in the sticks. It's going to take Austin ten years to grow out to it while the Cedar Park site will be surrounded almost by the time it is built. We'll have to see if that arena is going to be operated by the company Mark Cuban partly owns.

During preseason play, Mahinmi was hitting his jumper during game action. They weren't very pretty but he made almost all of his perimeter shots. However, according to everyone's analysis, it appears that he has struggled with his jumpshot on the D-League level.

And while Mahinmi's offensive production in the D-League is nice, I'd like it more if he were dominating on the glass and by blocking shots. A lot of bad players can score a lot on the D-League level, however very few players have put up monster numbers in rebounds and blocked shots at a young age.

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Originally Posted by timvp

A lot of bad players can score a lot on the D-League level.

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Yeah but...Ian wasn't even showing signs of an offensive game in those junior Euroleagues...it's definitely an aspect of his game that's improving. To what degree is hard to say...but it's certainly a plus.


The shotblocking thing I can understand him struggling with a bit as I think he's grown 2 or 3 inches since the Spurs drafted him...and that kind of growth can take a while to adjust too...

The rebounding I have no answer for other than skinny guys sometimes struggle to rebound...maybe after he fills out some more those numbers will start to improve.

He's definitely got the hustle attitude to get rebounds, and jumping and length...so it may just be a case of him getting pushed around.

I have not seen him play since he went to Austin. It seems that some of the problems could be his adjustment to staying out of foul trouble, which he has improved on and that can take away from his stats regarding rebounding and shot blocking.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

It's showing up on the beta webcast schedule in case anyone wants to tune in.

http://www.nba.com/dleague/webcastDleague.html

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This link is working for anyone who wants to tune in.

End of the half, Toros down 51-49. The game is pretty sloppy as the refs have been calling everything.

Snyder has used a lot of small ball with Marcus Williams at power forward ... and Williams has responded nicely. 17 points and 10 rebounds at half :tu

Mahinmi has been silent. Three points and three rebounds in under 12 minutes of play. He hasn't been in foul trouble but Snyder has been extra cautious for some reason. Perhaps he's planning to play him big minutes in the second half. Mahinmi got frustrated a few times as there was some ball hogging going on and Mahinmi wasn't getting his usually touches.

CJ Watson for the Vipers has 20 points, four rebounds and four assists at half time. I still don't want him even though the Spurs could use a third string point guard. He's a pretty good scorer but his court vision is severely lacking. On the NBA level, I don't think he'd be a good enough scorer to make up for not being able to pass.

7 turnovers on Marcus Williams, pathetic.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Snyder has used a lot of small ball with Marcus Williams at power forward ... and Williams has responded nicely. 17 points and 10 rebounds at half :tu

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:wow

Mahinmi fouled out on one of the dumber fouls in basketball history.

Ooooooovertime. Gadsen comes up clutch in the fourth. Mahinmi and Simmons fouled out. CJ Watson has 38 for Vipers ... Williams has 22 and 17 for the Toros.

The Vipers choked from the free throw line and Williams got a layup to send the game into double overtime. Gadsen and Williams with the clutch plays for the Toros. Watson came into the game shooting 90%+ from the line and missed two in a row that could have iced the game :lol

Toros about to win. Marcus Williams with 30 points and 20 rebounds. Impressive dunks in the second overtime. As a power forward in D-League, Williams is a monster.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Toros about to win. Marcus Williams with 30 points and 20 rebounds. Impressive dunks in the second overtime. As a power forward in D-League, Williams is a monster.

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Maybe the Spurs drafted him as a small ball PF?

He looked pretty good tonight.



That live feed announcing sucked btw..


I've always suspected Mark Hoenig is a douchebag(as are all the guys who work for KVET)...but after tonight I am certain of it.

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Originally Posted by whottt

Maybe the Spurs drafted him as a small ball PF?

He looked pretty good tonight.



That live feed announcing sucked btw..


I've always suspected Mark Hoenig is a douchebag(as are all the guys who work for KVET)...but after tonight I am certain of it.

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He's definitely not a small ball PF. He's not physical enough.

As opposed to Mike Finley primarily and even Brent Barry a time or two ...the two guys that have manned the small PF position for us over the past 4 years...


Got it.

Comparing him and Brent Barry is okay. But you can't say Marcus is as physical as Michael.

Marcus is long...True. However, he's not bulky enough to handle the PF position, even to Finley's level.

Finley can somewhat handle that position. That is why Pop plays small ball with Finley at there and not Barry.

:worthy: Marcus Williams

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Originally Posted by Mr.Bottomtooth

:worthy: Marcus Williams

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Obviously he doesn't have the consistent outside game that the Spurs coaching staff cherishes, but you HAVE to admit he's made significant strides from his SL and training camp play.

I know it's just a D-League game, but 32/20 for a 6'7 210lb combo forward is very intriguing.

If he can work to extend his range and work on his speed/quickness, I think he can become a viable option for long 3/small ball 4 in the longterm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by usckk

Comparing him and Brent Barry is okay. But you can't say Marcus is as physical as Michael.

Marcus is long...True. However, he's not bulky enough to handle the PF position, even to Finley's level.

Finley can somewhat handle that position. That is why Pop plays small ball with Finley at there and not Barry.

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Bowen is the other guy that sometimes handles the small-ball 4 position and he's not bulky either.

Alot of the time it's more about long arms than it is strong body. However, if I were Spurs FO and coaching staff, I think I'd actually steer him more towards developing his 3pt shot and working on his speed/athleticism to the point where he's strictly more a 2/3 than a 3/4.

Williams can survive as a small ball power forward in D-League. In the NBA, he'd have to gain about 20 pounds. But yeah, Finley and Barry aren't exactly poster boys for small ball power forwards either.

Williams' jumper isn't that ugly when he isn't nervous. During summer league and preseason, Williams jumper was damn ugly. In the regular season, that one jumper he took he almost killed himself. However, in the free flowing D-League, his hitch isn't that bad.

He has some huge flaws (slow feet, slow release, etc.) but at least he's putting up numbers in the D-League. He still has a big amount of work to do before he's NBA ready but he's at least going in the right direction. If the Toros can keep him all year and then the Spurs put him on a summer workout regimen, there might be a shot for him to make the NBA at some point down the road.

Oh and Williams >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Langford. Langford is supposedly a really good kid but at least Williams has a shot to be an NBA player. Langford is just a slightly better prospect than Lang.

Before I give my overall thoughts on this game, I'll give ChumpDumper the first crack at it.

I was at the game sitting court side when I looked to my left and saw Danny Ferry sitting next to me. I wanted to say something but decided not to bother him. On the other hand when the DLeague people came around to drop off the first qtr stats sheets, they gave him one too many. He looked at me and said want one. I thought it was cool. Anyway my two cents worth. Great game.

Man, McAllen is one ugly place!

timvp- Williams > Langford?

The only thing Williams has on Langford is height which makes him a better NBA prospect. That however DOES NOT make him the better player.

Marcus Williams is a stud. In less than 5 years, he will be an all star. I just hope it will be with Spurs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timvp

Before I give my overall thoughts on this game, I'll give ChumpDumper the first crack at it.

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Go ahead. I had to leave early and missed a lot of the good stuff.

Toros make it two-in-a-row against Vipers

1/6/2008 By: News 8 Austin Staff
http://www.news8austin.com/content/h...197597&SecID=2

AUSTIN, TX - Marcus Williams scored 10 of his team-high 32 points in overtime to help lead the Austin Toros over the Rio Grande Valley Vipers 125-114 in double overtime Saturday night at the Austin Convention Center.

The Toros won for the second night in a row, stretching their home win streak to a franchise record 10 consecutive games.

After blowing a 12-point lead in the first half of the game and trailing for most of the second half, the Toros forced the first overtime on a jumper by Cheyne Gadson with 12 seconds remaining in the fourth quarter.

The Toros overwhelmed a depleted Vipers squad plagued with foul trouble and outscored Rio Grande Valley 17-6 in the second overtime period.

Williams, who scored six of his ten overtime points in the second overtime period, closed the door on the Vipers with a put-back slam dunk to push the Toros ahead 120-112 with 1:16 remaining.

Austin finished with six players in double figures including Cheyne Gadson, who finished with 28 points and six assists. Ian Mahinmi, finished with 14. Kenton Paulino and Kris Lang both added 13.

The Toros improved to 12-4, the best record in the NBA D-League. With the loss tonight, the Vipers fell to 9-7.

do you guys know?

http://cid-efe6cb399da6329b.spaces.live.com/

Reminding everyone Marcus Williams no longer belongs to the Spurs. Anyone can call him up, right?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Body

Reminding everyone Marcus Williams no longer belongs to the Spurs. Anyone can call him up, right?

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Yes. We'll see if he or any of the other players get any interest at the MLK Showcase - all the games there will be
on NBAtv, btw.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Yes. We'll see if he or any of the other players get any interest at the MLK Showcase - all the games there will be
on NBAtv, btw.

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IMO Spurs need to sign this guy as soon as Manu and Barry both make it back from their injuries.

I understand he probably isn't ready to contribute right away, but the Spurs obviously saw enough in him to draft him just this last year, and if he keeps playing well the Spurs just might not get the chance to see him fulfill his promise fplaying for them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PHAT TONY

IMO Spurs need to sign this guy as soon as Manu and Barry both make it back from their injuries.

I understand he probably isn't ready to contribute right away, but the Spurs obviously saw enough in him to draft him just this last year, and if he keeps playing well the Spurs just might not get the chance to see him fulfill his promise fplaying for them.

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I have some problem seeing exactly how he would fit on a Spurs team. He definitely has skills, but on the whole its an unusual skill set that doesn't seem as easily integrated as that of DerMarr Johnson or Keith Langford.

Worth keeping an eye on though.

The deadline for Langford and Johnson is coming. If I had to guess something, I would say that both will be waived (Langford on Monday and Johnson on Tuesday). At least one should be waived and it will be interesting to see who will come back in Austin.