Maybe it's time to start Manu

The Spurs need to start games off with a bang instead of falling behind like they have been lately. maybe Pop should consider giving Manu his starting job again. Remember the good old days when manu would get the tipoff and drive toward the basket for two quick points?
Coaches have already figured out that when manu is in the game with 3 or 4 average players, they should double team manu to get the ball to a less threatening player. The only time manu can be very effective off the bench is if there are other scoring threats such as Duncan, Barry, Finley, and Parker.
maybe Manu starting again would rouse the Spurs out of their current lethargy.

it is something to consider although i don;t see it happening until playoff time

The bench would be total shit then. I also debate whether the Spurs would start out with a bang. When you have all of the big three in there, someone's shots WILL suffer, and as CoM would tell you, Manu would be that player. It's a waste to play them together too much.

There's a reason that Manu is so explosive off the bench. Most of the time, he can dominate the ball.

Until the rest of the bench gets out of their slump, I would keep him on the bench.

One of the big reasons to bring Manu off the bench is so he is in the game when Tim and Tony come out. That need is even greater now with the way everyone else is playing.

No way, he finally has a good shot at 6th MOtY. :elephant

Honestly if you're talking about starting Manu i don't think it's such a bad idea to start him in the 2nd half if nothing else. Like last night the Spurs came out flat to start the 2nd half and got off to a bad start right away. If that happens to start the game you have plenty of time to fix it but the 2nd half is where you win games and why not start the final 24 min. with your best team out on the floor?

it's definately something to consider.

-Mars

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Originally Posted by beirmeistr

The only time manu can be very effective off the bench is if there are other scoring threats such as Duncan, Barry, Finley, and Parker.
maybe Manu starting again would rouse the Spurs out of their current lethargy.

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Finley and Barry aren't exactly scoring threats. Finley shoots too much and has had, recently, games of 1 of 10, 3 of 12, and 2 of 11. Barry on the other hand isn't shooting enough when he's open as he usually opts to make a bad pass instead. Starting Manu is a start atleast and if it doesn't work out, then stick him back on the bench, it wouldn't be the first time and I doubt it would bruise his ego. I've always stuck by the Spurs during their yearly struggles, but there are a few too many cracks in the damn ti ignore. Ship out Barry and or Finley and bring in some steady offense and some fresh legs. Neither are good defenders to begin with and Bruce is noticeably two steps slower on D, but he is like 37 so its understandable.

I'd be pissed if Pop went back to starting Manu. The bench right now is weak as is -- and that's with Manu coming off the bench. You start Manu and the bench becomes horrible.

There are some problems with this team but Manu coming off the bench is not one of those problems.

I'm wondering if Pop would ever consider switching up the rotations and playing Manu during that time in the 2nd quarter the Spurs seem to go cold offensively.

Why is it that the current bench cannot handle their job? Back in 2005, when Manu was a starter, the bench consisted of Horry, Barry, Rasho, Devin Brown, Beno, Massenburg, and Big Dog Robinson. Now we could have a bench of Horry, Barry, Bonner, Finley, Vaughn, Udoka, and Elson. How much of a difference is there between those two benches? You would think Finley and Udoka would be an improvement. Could it be that the only culprit is age, and that that is the reason the bench would suck if manu started?

It's something to consider. Brent Barry has been pretty good off the bench and can handle it. Plus as we know Pop usually moves Manu at this time of year anyway when things aren't working (usually to the bench but it might work the other way around)and it might catch teams off guard with the switch.

It would just deplete an already underachieving bench.

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Originally Posted by exstatic

The bench would be total shit then. I also debate whether the Spurs would start out with a bang. When you have all of the big three in there, someone's shots WILL suffer, and as CoM would tell you, Manu would be that player. It's a waste to play them together too much.

There's a reason that Manu is so explosive off the bench. Most of the time, he can dominate the ball.

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Exactly.

If you make that move, then who is supposed to replace his energy off the bench? Michael Finley? I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by exstatic

The bench would be total shit then. I also debate whether the Spurs would start out with a bang. When you have all of the big three in there, someone's shots WILL suffer, and as CoM would tell you, Manu would be that player. It's a waste to play them together too much.

There's a reason that Manu is so explosive off the bench. Most of the time, he can dominate the ball.

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If that is the reason, we should bench that kiddo wearing the #21. The main reason is the system not the bench.

I'm thinking some kind of lineup change is coming soon. Although, Pop has moved Manu before, I agree that our bench is not responding and without Manu, it would be non-existent. The problem will not be solved by moving Manu into the starting lineup.

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Originally Posted by timvp

I'd be pissed if Pop went back to starting Manu. The bench right now is weak as is -- and that's with Manu coming off the bench. You start Manu and the bench becomes horrible.

There are some problems with this team but Manu coming off the bench is not one of those problems.

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Exactly.

I think the bigger problem is the way Bruce is messing up the offense. Lately he has been driving to the hole, taking long twos, and missing everything he puts up. Maybe Udoka should start and Bruce should be used in spots off the bench to cool down hot players?

As for Finley, he's streaky and will be back. He just has to stop shooting so much and improve his shot selection. However, adam's idea of starting Barry for Finley and seeing what happens isn't a bad one. It'd certainly get the ball moving better.

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Originally Posted by RuffnReadyOzStyle

Exactly.

I think the bigger problem is the way Bruce is messing up the offense. Lately he has been driving to the hole, taking long twos, and missing everything he puts up. Maybe Udoka should start and Bruce should be used in spots off the bench to cool down hot players?

As for Finley, he's streaky and will be back. He just has to stop shooting so much and improve his shot selection. However, adam's idea of starting Barry for Finley and seeing what happens isn't a bad one. It'd certainly get the ball moving better.

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Hmm if you want a big time shakeup you could start both Udoka and Barry. I think that would really improve the offense of the starting 5. I've never actually even given it a seconds thought about benching Bruce before, but what about if Udoka can hold serve and then we can have a fresh as a daisy Bruce come in off the bench ready to check a tired starter for the other team.

A second unit of Bruce, Manu, Finley, Horry, Bonner, Vaughn sounds like a good one to me. U can surround Manu with 3 or 4 three point shooters, plus I'm sure the other team will respect Bruce and Finley's three point shots more, which could mean less double teams for Manu and more room to maneuver.

This is pretty crazy to even consider though let alone do.

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Originally Posted by RuffnReadyOzStyle

I think the bigger problem is the way Bruce is messing up the offense. Lately he has been driving to the hole, taking long twos, and missing everything he puts up. Maybe Udoka should start and Bruce should be used in spots off the bench to cool down hot players?

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I agree with this...Bruce should be a situational player now and we should develop Udoka. He won't be the stopper that Bruce is but he weighs more and can hold his own in the post. He's also a decent rebounder.

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Originally Posted by RuffnReadyOzStyle

I think the bigger problem is the way Bruce is messing up the offense. Lately he has been driving to the hole, taking long twos, and missing everything he puts up. Maybe Udoka should start and Bruce should be used in spots off the bench to cool down hot players?

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Bruce's offense isn't the problem; the fact that he is trying to create offense is the problem when talking about Bowen. He just needs to stay within himself on offense and we all know what he does on defense. Udoka is better offensively but we have enough fire power so we don't need Bowen to score a lot. I guess what i'm getting at is there is no chance Bowen gets benched and he shouldn't get benched either in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Ice009

...then we can have a fresh as a daisy Bruce come in off the bench ready to check a tired starter for the other team.

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My thoughts exactly.

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Originally Posted by VaSpursFan

I agree with this...Bruce should be a situational player now and we should develop Udoka. He won't be the stopper that Bruce is but he weighs more and can hold his own in the post. He's also a decent rebounder.

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Yup.

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Originally Posted by sa_kid20

Bruce's offense isn't the problem; the fact that he is trying to create offense is the problem when talking about Bowen. He just needs to stay within himself on offense and we all know what he does on defense. Udoka is better offensively but we have enough fire power so we don't need Bowen to score a lot. I guess what i'm getting at is there is no chance Bowen gets benched and he shouldn't get benched either in my opinion.

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My point was that Bruce "trying to create offense" is a big part of the problem, although I think you're suggesting it could be a symptom of the lack of team offense... chicken or the egg? I'm not sure. Maybe it's a bit of both. As for "staying within himself on O", of course he should do that but lately he's not, and he's not even hitting the corner 3 any more, and that's what I'm objecting to. When Bruce can't even do the limited things he used to do on offense, no wonder everything is out of whack as our starters are basically playing 4-on-5 offense. Also, during the slump especially the last 5 games, he has looked a step slow in general.

I just think benching Bruce, but still playing him 24-30 mins a game (he's currently playing an ave of 31), would re-energise the starting offense, and allow Bruce to come in whenever Pop needs him for shorter periods of high intensity D. Udoka is a good defender, so the defensive dropoff shouldn't be huge. Worth a try?

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Originally Posted by RuffnReadyOzStyle

I just think benching Bruce, but still playing him 24-30 mins a game (he's currently playing an ave of 31), would re-energise the starting offense, and allow Bruce to come in whenever Pop needs him for shorter periods of high intensity D. Udoka is a good defender, so the defensive dropoff shouldn't be huge. Worth a try?

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Yeah i see what you're saying but honstly i would rather see the Spurs just keep the lineup as is and give Ime more minutes. Right now he is averaging about 12 or 13 mpg and i wouldn't be surprised it that increased. I just don't like the fact of making drastic changes in the lineup because what if you make those changes and the team doesn't improve? then what? Just keep things as they are and maybe tweak the rotation a bit but nothing drastic.

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Originally Posted by sa_kid20

Yeah i see what you're saying but honstly i would rather see the Spurs just keep the lineup as is and give Ime more minutes. Right now he is averaging about 12 or 13 mpg and i wouldn't be surprised it that increased. I just don't like the fact of making drastic changes in the lineup because what if you make those changes and the team doesn't improve? then what? Just keep things as they are and maybe tweak the rotation a bit but nothing drastic.

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Sure, but by the same token what if you remain the same and nothing improves? See, you can't go by "what ifs", you have to determine what the problem is and make a tweak. I wonder what Pop sees as the problem?

Last year the change came when Pop replaced Beno with JV in early Feb. That made a huge difference to the backup unit. I doubt he'll bench Bruce, and maybe Barry for Finley would be a better idea, but something in the starting lineup needs to change, and inserting Manu isn't it IMHO.

:lol

@ everyone wanting Bowen to be benched

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Originally Posted by RuffnReadyOzStyle

Last year the change came when Pop replaced Beno with JV in early Feb. That made a huge difference to the backup unit. I doubt he'll bench Bruce, and maybe Barry for Finley would be a better idea, but something in the starting lineup needs to change, and inserting isn't it IMHO.

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Thats exactly what I'm talking about when i say they should tweak the ROTATION rather than the starting lineup. The Spurs never did anything drastic to the starting lineup last year but they re-aranged minutes on the bench by giving JV a shot and there you go. They did nothing drastic, just tweaked the bench a bit and I thinks thats what they should do now by giving Ime some more playing time.

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Originally Posted by T Park

:lol

@ everyone wanting Bowen to be benched

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Read it more carefully T Park. It's about getting some flow back into the offence early, and using Bruce in a more targetted fashion. And it's not a matter of "wanting", it's a matter of ideas about where to go from here.

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Originally Posted by T Park

:lol

@ everyone wanting Bowen to be benched

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There are about 5 teams in the league he is needed for. With the rest, there is no reason for him to even broach 30min a game.

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Originally Posted by sa_kid20

Thats exactly what I'm talking about when i say they should tweak the ROTATION rather than the starting lineup. The Spurs never did anything to the starting lineup last year but they re-aranged minutes on the bench by giving JV a shot and there you go. They did nothing drastic, just tweaked the bench a bit and I thinks thats what they should do now by giving Ime some more playing time.

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And maybe you're right. But I think that it isn't the bench letting us down right now, it's the starters, so that's where the change has to come.

Also, at the moment there is no set rotation, so it's hard to tweak... Pop is throwing players around willy-nilly. Maybe what needs to happen is Pop settling on a 9-man rotation and stopping the merry-go-round. That proably won't happen until after ASB though.

This is an ideas thread - I'm not saying I have the answer, but these are some of the things I'd try.

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Originally Posted by Que Gee

There are about 5 teams in the league he is needed for. With the rest, there is no reason for him to even broach 30min a game.

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Lakers being one - he's lit up Kobe for 22 and 23 points already this year! :lol

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It's about getting some flow back into the offence early, and using Bruce in a more targetted fashion.

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The offense works off the defense.

Thats the way its been since 1999.

Bruce Bowen will never come off the bench as long as he can still play.

As evidenced the other night against Cleveland, Bruce Bowen can still friggen play.

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There are about 5 teams in the league he is needed for. With the rest, there is no reason for him to even broach 30min a game.

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Of course not, defense never wins anything.

i just think we need to give the ball to tim more :ihit

Agreed.

For all the bitching for years of diversifying the offense, they've gone away way too much from 4 down IMO.

It wasn't run enough against the Cavaliers, and theres been alot of games they've lost this year where you could say that.

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Originally Posted by RuffnReadyOzStyle

This is an ideas thread - I'm not saying I have the answer, but these are some of the things I'd try.

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Hey man thats our job as fans to suggest things and ideas when things aren't going so well. The Spurs probably won't try most of the things we throw out there but thats cool cause i would like to think they know what they're doing. In the end all you can do is just hope things work themselves out we end up celebrating again in June. :smokin

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cause i would like to think they know what they're doing

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:lol 4 rings in 9 years would seem to suggest that :)

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Originally Posted by sa_kid20

Hey man thats our job as fans to suggest things and ideas when things aren't going so well. The Spurs probably won't try most of the things we throw out there but thats cool cause i would like to think they know what they're doing. In the end all you can do is just hope things work themselves out we end up celebrating again in June. :smokin

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Indeed! :)

As for more 4-down, not the answer. Have you seen how much Tim is getting blocked this season, and how few calls he's getting? Unless he rediscovers his left hand consistently, or some spring, Tim's offense will not be as reliable as it once was, and anyway, 4-down stagnates everything. I'd be going the other way and playing more motion offense.

WTF, Duncan hardly shoots some games, hes getting 10 to 11 shots when he should be getting 20 to 25.

This team IMO has swayed wayyy too far away from Duncan and have made him at times close to a second scorer.

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Originally Posted by RuffnReadyOzStyle

Have you seen how much Tim is getting blocked this season, and how few calls he's getting? Unless he rediscovers his left hand consistently, or some spring, Tim's offense will not be as reliable as it once was

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I've noticed everytime Tim posts up on the right block he tends to bring the ball right into the shot blocker instead of using the the off hand to keep the ball out of reach. If he doesn't want to use the left the hand then i don't know why he doesn's spin baseline more often and use that little baby hook he is so good at. Thats always seemed weird to me that a guy as fundamentaly sound as Duncan is to bring the ball right into the shot blocker like that because thats something they teach you not to do since you were little.

Yeah Timmy gets blocked alot it seems.

Personally I stand by 4 down needing to be incorporated more.

When run right, its not everyone standing around. Its tim getting the ball, and guys at the perimiter if Duncan is doubled, or runs into trouble cutting and getting open shots.

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Originally Posted by sa_kid20

I've noticed everytime Tim posts up on the right block he tends to bring the ball right into the shot blocker instead of using the the off hand to keep the ball out of reach. If he doesn't want to use the left the hand then i don't know why he doesn's spin baseline more often and use that little baby hook he is so good at. Thats always seemed weird to me that a guy as fundamentaly sound as Duncan is to bring the ball right into the shot blocker like that because thats something they teach you not to do since you were little.

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That maddens the shit out of me, and i always point it out in the game thread. Glad someone else noticed. That's why I mentioned his left hand, which he used to use in exactly that situation earlier in his career.

T Park, you are exaggerating as usual - Tim's last 10 games, number of shots:
21
17
14
12
16
19
16
16
20
20

So he's averaging about 16-17 shots a game lately, and 15 over the season (504/34), and that's about right. He's not the offensive juggernaut he used to be because he's slowed down and has no spring at all, not to mention less variety in his moves, the (mostly) absent left hand, and fewer calls going his way. The days of a 4-down-dominated offence winning games for us consistently are gone.

In starting and bench group, SPURS can only afford 1 to 1.5 offensive sucker. Now, SPURS have BB, Oberto and sometimes Finley in the starting group.

In the bench group, SPURS have Elson, IU, Horry....

So there is not much room to swap players within these 2 groups.

So possible solution is to swap Finley with Barry to generate more ball movement for starting lineup or to swap Oberto with Bonner or Horry to draw PF out. The cost is the pts given up on defense as Barry/Bonner suck in this department.

Pairing Oberto with Manu could make bench more productive offensively.

Solution 2 is to increase IU minutes and use him as the stable backup for BB, assuming that his offensive production will improve with increased playing time.

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Originally Posted by bigfundamental21

I'm thinking some kind of lineup change is coming soon. Although, Pop has moved Manu before, I agree that our bench is not responding and without Manu, it would be non-existent. The problem will not be solved by moving Manu into the starting lineup.

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I think the line up change will consist of a steady 8 man rotation. Maybe 9. But stop this craziness of putting players in for 2 or 3 minutes and then pulling them to put someone else in for 2 or 3 minutes.

I would like to still see Manu off the bench, but when Vaughn comes in for Tony to rest, also bring in Barry and let him run the point. At least that puts two guys out there that are a 3 point threat with good passing skills.

I understand Tony can't play 48, but it seems to me when Vaughn comes in, we become stagnant on Offense. I've also noticed Vaughn seems to have his best minutes when Tony is on the floor at the same time and running the point. I love his energy, but energy doesn't score. And we need someone running point with better passing skills than Vaughn. When Vaughn is running point, it pretty much lets the opposition run a 5 on 4 defense. They know he isn't going to penetrate, and they will let him shoot 17 footers all day long. He just isn't enough of a threat to run the team.

I also think what we are missing is energy from Elson when he is on the floor. I sat down and watched the first three games of 06-07 Finals and Elson looked like a totally different player then than he does now. We need him to get right, run the court, and bring the emotional energy he brought then.

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Originally Posted by SAGambler

I also think what we are missing is energy from Elson when he is on the floor. I sat down and watched the first three games of 06-07 Finals and Elson looked like a totally different player then than he does now. We need him to get right, run the court, and bring the emotional energy he brought then.

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...? Elson? Frankie Elson? Fans talk without spirit, nonsense

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Originally Posted by T Park

Yeah Timmy gets blocked alot it seems.

Personally I stand by 4 down needing to be incorporated more.

When run right, its not everyone standing around. Its tim getting the ball, and guys at the perimiter if Duncan is doubled, or runs into trouble cutting and getting open shots.

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It takes two to tango TPark. If you think Timmy mentally brings it every night these days, you're freakin' crazy. I'm not saying he's taking regular seasons off like Shaq, but Tim clearly looks for his shot more in some games than others and is more aggressive in some games than others. He is 31 now and he just doesn't have that fire in his belly ever game. He's picked it up lately and he'll probably be same old Tim for good once February hits. But with Manu and Tony on the team I don't think Duncan feels too guilty about letting them carry the load now and then. It's not like the guys are purposefully ignoring Pop when he calls plays. Pop can tell if Duncan feels it or not.

Manu should be starter from start of season.

So is Jeremy Richardson starting a one game thing? What is Pop doing now? Do you think he will go back to the normal starting 5 the next game?

The reason I wanted Udoka to start is because I thought the starting five needed some energy, plus Ime is really starting to play better. If not Ime, is there anyone else who could start? I still think a change needs to be made. I wonder if a small ball starting 5 might work to get our offense going then we sub Oberto back in and play big. Would that be a possibility?

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Originally Posted by RADECK

Manu should be starter from start of season.

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thats exactly why you arent the coach lol

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Originally Posted by RuffnReadyOzStyle

The days of a 4-down-dominated offence winning games for us consistently are gone.

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Say it ain't so.

Say it ain't so. :(

I would keep manu coming off the bench. He's the only consistent guy off the bench that can sustain the spurs attack while parker or Duncan is resting. Besides, It's more likely that Pop is reserving Ginobili for the playoffs.

By the way he plays, it unavoidable for him to wear himself out before the playoffs. Unlike parker, ginobili is in his thirties and more likely to injure himself in play. Coming off the bench lessens the wear and tear on his body (and allows PoP to optimized his use in the court). I think this is a good strategy on the part of Pop.

Can't start Manu when we have no one that can create his own offense on the bench.

bump

i dont mind manu coming off the bench,
but i think it wont hurt to try ....

It just seems like it's not really working anymore this season so I don't know.

It's fine the way it is. But he should come in earlier, because he needs to play with Tim more.

Just as long as Manu has a second option so the offense isn't predictable, I hate it when they call a play for Vaughn in order to keep the defenses honest on Manu (and it probably hurts that Barry's out again). Manu heading the second unit is usually a good strategy when there's at least one other player Manu can create for.

I think they need to start Udoka maybe, and have Finley play with Manu.

If Pop starts Manu, it will show how uncreative Pop is, scratching his head. :lol

bump

Move Finley to the bench. I don't care if it's Manu or Udoka who starts in his place.

start Udoka.

Keep Manu on the bench.


Honestly whats killing the Spurs right now are the secondary scorers getting off in first quarters.

Stoyakovic
Kirilenko


guys of that ilk.

Finley is just in a bad funk and Udoka's fire, defense, rebounding and shot are Mario Elie esque.

Go ahead and start Udoka and bring Manu and Finley off the bench.

Udoka should start over Finley at this point. I would say Bowen but he still brings defense and we need that to start games most nights.

Problem then is that Ginobli is the only scoring option off the bench. Finley has struggled since the return of Ginobli and Barry. Now that Barry went out again Udoka has played well and Finley hasn't figured out how to adjust again.

Of course the problem with starting both Udoka and Bowen is that if one or both get into foul trouble we're screwed.

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

Move Finley to the bench. I don't care if it's Manu or Udoka who starts in his place.

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I agree. I think it's time to make some sort of a change, just to see if it might work...having the same line up right now is just not working...I just don't like that Pop rarely changes his strategies...Maybe finally after today he'll take notice.

I also think either Manu or Udoka need to start at this time. Finley needs to score, and right now he just isn't doing that...If Manu starts, then Udoka will have to have enough confidence to carry the bench with Finley...

Do you think Pop will finally make a change, Kori?

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

Move Finley to the bench. I don't care if it's Manu or Udoka who starts in his place.

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Kori, please sent this letter to Pop:

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Dear Pop:

F*** you! I'm tired to see Manu coming off the bench to fix everything every night.! Do you hear me?!!! START Manu!

With love,
Cherry :)

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Hopefully he makes a lineup change for our starting offense.
I don't like tuning into the game seeing our Spurs down in either the 1st, or the 2nd quarter against good teams. And then always relying on a 2nd half come back against bad teams, because the team gets off to a lackadaisical start against THEM too.

By this point, they can't rely on that 'every teams gunning for us' assumption. They need to have that first quarter burst, and I think Tony's hampered foot has a lot to do with that absence.

Start Manu and Ime, and Vaughn (until Parker's 100%).

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Originally Posted by T Park

start Udoka.

Keep Manu on the bench.


Honestly whats killing the Spurs right now are the secondary scorers getting off in first quarters.

Stoyakovic
Kirilenko


guys of that ilk.

Finley is just in a bad funk and Udoka's fire, defense, rebounding and shot are Mario Elie esque.

Go ahead and start Udoka and bring Manu and Finley off the bench.

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I actually think the main problem is the first unit, the Spurs starters start badly in the beginning of the game, the the second unit of Manu/Udoka/Vaughn/etc has to come in to try to fix everything...In today's game, I think by the time Manu came into the game, the Spurs were already down more than 10 points. You can't have that against really good teams like Utah...

You know lately though it just seems that Manu really hasn't been bringing the same energy from the bench right from the beginning that has made our bench successful in the last few years and the reason Manu went to the bench in the first place. He also has just seemed like he's more frustrated than anything so maybe it's time to start him.

The problem is what I said. Secondary scorers are getting off early and thats how they are falling behind quickly AND early.

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Originally Posted by T Park

start Udoka.

Keep Manu on the bench.


Honestly whats killing the Spurs right now are the secondary scorers getting off in first quarters.

Stoyakovic
Kirilenko


guys of that ilk.

Finley is just in a bad funk and Udoka's fire, defense, rebounding and shot are Mario Elie esque.

Go ahead and start Udoka and bring Manu and Finley off the bench.

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Beautiful man, Beautiful. Everyone is starting to see the LIGHT (except POP).

It won't do any good to put all our fire power into the starting lineup just to watch Pop put the bench in and lose the lead.

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Originally Posted by T Park

The problem is what I said. Secondary scorers are getting off early and thats how they are falling behind quickly AND early.

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EXACTLY what I think too. Already said this before too. I agree with that T-Park. Pop just needs to try something different.

Please oh Please delete this and any start manu threads from here on out

this is getting ridiculous

Manu will get the 6th man of the year if he continues to come off bench, although he doesn't care.

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Originally Posted by T Park

The problem is what I said. Secondary scorers are getting off early and thats how they are falling behind quickly AND early.

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Oh, I think I understand now what you mean...

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Originally Posted by greenleo

I disagree...The beginning of the first quarters start off badly with bad shooting percentages...by the time the second units for the Spurs and the other teams come in, the Spurs are already in big trouble...yet, somehow, sometimes Manu manages to get everyone back in the game, like he did today.

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I don't care if we've only scored 12 points if we're able to hold the other team down to 10 points when Manu comes in, that will already be a huge difference.

SPURS win on DEFENSE.

Yeah the defense first mentality would really come back quick with Udoka starting.

Unfortunately getting ejected late in the game due to wanting to mouth off to AK47, he will be lucky to get any PT tommarow night let alone start.

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Originally Posted by TMTTRIO

You know lately though it just seems that Manu really hasn't been bringing the same energy from the bench right from the beginning that has made our bench successful in the last few years and the reason Manu went to the bench in the first place. He also has just seemed like he's more frustrated than anything so maybe it's time to start him.

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I don't think the bench is the main problem right now...I honestly think it's the starting five at the moment...

In today's game, Manu got 29 pts off the bench. It seems to actually have worked lately, however the problem is that when the starters are not doing well, the bench is not enough to save the game...

In the prior games, Tony was healthier and had amazing games, so the wins were a lot easier, because the bench did not have to do everything...

I think Manu is frustrated with how the Spurs are playing in general, I also see that Timmy is upset too...

As for energy level, I also think it has to do with Manu's finger injury...yet, he actually seems to be one of the few players playing really good at the moment, with any type of passion at all.

Whatever the issue, the line ups definitely need to be looked at right now...before it gets a lot worse.

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Originally Posted by Ice009

I don't care if we've only scored 12 points if we're able to hold the other team down to 10 points when Manu comes in, that will already be a huge difference.

SPURS win on DEFENSE.

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But their defense and getting stops, hasn't really been the problem for the most part.

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Originally Posted by ManuTim_best of Fwiendz

But their defense and getting stops, hasn't really been the problem for the most part.

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I think by the time TP is back to his usual self, the Spurs will be in a lot better shape. Right now Tim/Manu/Tony all average 19 points per game, the Spurs really need TP's points...I just hope he takes better care of himself. He looks a bit unhealthy. Is there anything that can be done about the ankle?

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Originally Posted by greenleo

I think by the time TP is back to his usual self, the Spurs will be in a lot better shape. Right now Tim/Manu/Tony all average 19 points per game, the Spurs really need TP's points...I just hope he takes better care of himself. He looks a bit unhealthy. Is there anything that can be done about the ankle?

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WTF? the big three might just be averaging the most they ever have together. What more do you want from TP, Manu, Tim? You want them to all average 30 points per game and keep getting 2 points per game from everyone else? Right now the role players have to step up their offense, and the WHOLE TEAM needs to step up their defense.

With Parker hurt it is time to start Manu and bring Udoka off the bench first, then Finley. Our offense has been stagnet as of late in the first quarter because of Parkers inability to penetrate like he usually can.

I think it's time to try something radical. I don't want the big three to start because when that happens Manu becomes essentially useless because Pop either calls every play for Tim or Tony just tries to get himself going. The whole reason Pop went to Manu on the bench was because we had this stretch of like 6 or 7 straight games where he checked out at the 6 min mark of the 1st quarter with 1 or 0 shot attempts and the bench was also struggling big time.

Putting Manu to the bench was a brilliant move because he ignited the second unit, he was the one who was already most used to playing by himself out of anyone in the big three anyway, and it took forever for teams to adjust to the tactic, especially if Brent was out there with him. Really, this move took us to the 4th title as much as anything did.

However, now teams have made the adjustment and our starters are getting killed out there. It's not helping any that Tony is hurt and really struggling, Finley is off, Bowen's shot is MIA and Oberto is back to his '06 level of effectiveness. Tim can't do it alone, yet we're expecting him to. What's the most disappointing is that after such a brilliant start, Tony's point guard skills seem to have abandoned him and his passing has been very ineffective of late while his turnovers are up. He's not setting up anybody for open shots.

So my idea is to switch Tony and Manu's roles. Let Manu start with Tim and Vaughn, hopefully we'll clamp down on the opposing point guard a bit and not let other teams set up their offenses quite so easily and Tim and Manu can pick and roll people to death and maybe get Bowen wide open looks.

Then bring Tony off the bench to be the sparkplug, the energizer, and let him just concentrate on scoring, going hard to the basket. His change of pace over Vaughn would kill 2nd units. I think it would take teams maybe 10, 15 games to adjust to this tactic and we need all the help we can get.

Right now it seems that Parker is overwhelmed by all his responsibilities, his minutes, his role, having to set others up but look for own shot as well, when to drive, when to pass, and his head is swimming. His defense has gone to shit, he seems always tired, and I just don't see that same burst or energy from him. Giving him a different role might wake him up and bring the old Tony back.

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Originally Posted by Ice009

WTF? the big three might just be averaging the most they ever have together. What more do you want from TP, Manu, Tim? You want them to all average 30 points per game and keep getting 2 points per game from everyone else? Right now the role players have to step up their offense, and the WHOLE TEAM needs to step up their defense.

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WOW! LOL...read my post again...I think you misunderstood the whole thing!

I said that each one of the Big Three averages 19 pts per game in this season(that's amazing)...so when TP is not healthy enough, he doesn't get his regular/usual 19 pts per game...for today, he had 5 points. The loss for today was like by 6 points...so imagine when TP is back to his hundred percent, that will add up to his 19 points, hence the winning will be so much easier...

The Big Three have been amazing before the injuries happened. Absolutely terrific. My point was that in the loss today, the 19 points that TP usually gets is what was missing, due to the ankle issue/etc...

So please don't jump to conclusions. I never insult anyone on the Spurs team, I'm the fan of the whole team...

Obviously, the role players need to step up. I've probably wrote that already in multiple threads...That's the most obvious thing...

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Originally Posted by roycrikside

I think it's time to try something radical. I don't want the big three to start because when that happens Manu becomes essentially useless because Pop either calls every play for Tim or Tony just tries to get himself going.

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What about the 2005 playoff run? Ginobili had his best games as a starter. The team dynamics really haven't changed much since then.

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Originally Posted by roycrikside

The whole reason Pop went to Manu on the bench was because we had this stretch of like 6 or 7 straight games where he checked out at the 6 min mark of the 1st quarter with 1 or 0 shot attempts and the bench was also struggling big time.

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Eh, the bigger reason is the bench sucks without him and becomes perhaps the best in the league with him. The second biggest reason is it makes it easier for Pop to ensure that there are always at least one fresh member of the Big Three on the court at all times. The third biggest reason is it allows Ginobili's relatively limited minutes to include more vital minutes instead of the trash minutes at the beginning of each half.

The "Manu not getting enough touches" angle is further down the list. I think it's more that Manu just gets to touch the ball every time up the court when he plays with the scrubs. If he starts, he gets regular starting shooting guard amount of touches. With the second unit, he gets point guard level amount of touches.

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Originally Posted by roycrikside

Putting Manu to the bench was a brilliant move because he ignited the second unit, he was the one who was already most used to playing by himself out of anyone in the big three anyway, and it took forever for teams to adjust to the tactic, especially if Brent was out there with him. Really, this move took us to the 4th title as much as anything did.

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I've long been a proponent of Manu coming off the bench going all the way back to the beginning of the 2003-04 season. It's always made a lot of sense to me and I'm happy Pop has finally settled on it. Ginobili off the bench makes him a huge weapon and it doesn't affect his game negatively at all. I never saw a reason why he should start.

That said, I think Ginobili should start for the time being. And I say that as the world's biggest Ginobili-off-the-bench fan in existence.

While bringing Parker off the bench is a decent idea, I don't agree with it. Just put Ginobili into the starting lineup a la 2005. Parker doesn't strike me as a player who would thrive off the bench. I don't think he'd sulk or have an attitude about it -- I just don't think it fits.

That's especially true with this injured version of Parker. If I thought it was a lack of motivation behind Parker's struggles, I'd be all for drastic measures. But I don't think it's motivation related ... he just doesn't have his legs right now for whatever reason.

Without Parker being able to be aggressive offensively, the offense on a whole is really hurting. Parker is the best player on the team at penetrating and kicking it to three-point shooters. A big reason why the Spurs can't hit a three to save their lives most games is because Parker isn't able to drive and kick right now. Bowen, for example, makes his offensive living by hitting threes on assists from Parker. (In fact, historically an amazingly high percentage of Bowen's baskets come off of assists from Parker. That duo led the league in that category last year or the year before.)

With Parker hurting, Bowen and Finley become much more useless on the offensive end. That's why recently it's been basically just Duncan and four players watching him to start games. I say you just move Ginobili back to the starting lineup until Parker finds his legs. Having a weak bench is better than the starters sucking. The Spurs used to have the best of both worlds ... now they don't.