Bruce once again proves that he is the best perimeter defender in the league.
Don't sleep on Bruce!
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Bruce once again proves that he is the best perimeter defender in the league.
Don't sleep on Bruce!
Ghost Writer, where art thou?
He did foul Wade on the last play though.
Either way - he played some awesome D in that fourth.
I'll have to see it again. I thought Wade was losing the ball before he was touched.
I don't think he fouled Wade... He got his palm on the ball and Wade quickly threw his hands up... He didn't foul Wade.
Just saw the replay on TNT... he didn't foul him.
Wade lost the ball before he jumped passed Bowen or the two other spurs in his way. ROFLzers
From what I saw (gonna see it again), Wade lost the ball before the arm contact.
Bruce did foul Wade on that last play. He got part of the ball and then followed through on Wade's forearm.
WGAF SPurs won period.
Bruce still proved he's #1 defender
No torch needs to be passed just yet. Bruce is still The Man.
he just turned it on on the last lays and shut the door for us.. i want him on my team till the day i die
Bowen hit the ball and dislodged it before making contact with Wade's arm. Clean play.
However, the best defense by Bowen was during the Heat's second to last possession. That was vintage Bruce Bowen defense.
there is an unusual amount of bruce haters on here. why is that
agree...he moved his feet well and pushed wade back a few feet and made wade take a longer jumper than he wanted.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
you know you're good when not only the team opponents hate you, but the team fans also....
I still haven't seen more than one replay, but that's the same thing I thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
When was the last time you saw the Spurs go zone in that situation?Quote:
However, the best defense by Bowen was during the Heat's second to last possession. That was vintage Bruce Bowen defense.
Watching the last quarter Bruce was like looking at a piece of masterful art, somethiing by Van Gogh or Monet, it was just beautiful to watch.
I always thought Wade was exactly the kind of player that would give Bowen trouble. Strong, quick, sees the floor very well, and has a fantastic in between game, and yet Bowen blanketed him like cheese on macaroni. It was enough to make grown men cry.
A clean play by Bruce. I didn't see any foul at all during the replays. The way he defends the other teams' superstars is fun to watch...When is he going to win the DPoY award? I think it's long overdue...
thou shall now foul
The last 4 minutes was very good, but apart from that Bruce was asleep most of the game. He (and the rest of the team) just kept ducking under screens and left the ball handler plenty of room to operate. Wade got into the paint far too often for a team with absolutely no second offensive threat.
Bruce, like the rest of the team, is content with playing around 12 minutes of great basketball and playing lackadaisacal ball the rest of the time. Against a god-awful Miami team, it was just enough. But they aren't going to win more than 2 or 3 on the rodeo road trip with this kind of energy level
Those close fouls never get called during the last play of the game. Wade should have known better than to drive into that mess. Looked like he got raked across the arm but it certainly wasn't serious enough to warrant a whistle on the last play of the game.
I thought he should have faked the drive and dished out to an open shooter. Looks like he was trying to do that but was swarmed before he could give it up.
If that was Manu and he was raked on the arm by Raja Bell like Wade was by Bruce, I'm fairly certain most of you would call it a foul.
If you knock the ball loose, then it's not a foul hitting the arm on the followthrough.
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If that was Manu and he was raked on the arm by Raja Bell like Wade was by Bruce
Shame he didn't hit the arm or else your agenda would have semi substinance.
the last play was a bad no call. i think it only started to make up for some of the obvious calls that helped the heat, but that should have been called a foul.
Its a foul to slap the ball away?
Thats a new one.
wade was raped on that last play, but i guess it was a make up for when tony got raped last week and they weren't calling it
Anyone else think it's a little ironic that Wade is arguing for a no-call?
he was raped?
So duncan and Oberto standing hands up and Bowen slapping the ball away constitutes a rape?
Hilarious.
I'm here.
Do you think the game would've been as close if, say, Stephen Jackson or even Hedo Turkoglu was scoring points for the Spurs as the starting SF?
Question.
Late in the fourth quarter, all I kept thinking about was Bruce's defense on Wade. It was the best I've seen from Bruce in a while. That's the best you can ask for. Great job by him.
The Spurs were tired obviously. It showed in their offense. They were laying up brick after brick. It has nothing to do with Bruce not scoring 15 + points.
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Originally Posted by Ghost Writer
That's true, we might have won this game by a bigger margin and been well on our way to Championship #3.
To win an NBA game, you need to outscore the other team.
If Bowen holds his man to 25 pts., but only scores 10, it's not as good as someone holding his man to 30 pts., but scoring 20.
Capiche?
How many 20 ppg SFs are available?
And how many shots does it take to get 25 against Bowen vs. 30 against Mike Dunleavy?
Agree. That defense for 5-6 seconds almost at the 3 pt line was superb. He just couldnt do shit and had to shoot horribly - ball bounced off the rim and nobody was around for the rebound. That and the fact they guessed Wade would go for the layup in the last play sealed the victory IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
And the final layup by Ginobili, how many times have we asked for something like that from Manu in the last seconds of a game? It finally happened. He can't be contested when he does that. Period.
Good point. Very good. However, the Spurs have Manu, Tim, and Tony do handle the scoring load. There's only one basketball to go around anyways. The Spurs don't really need a small forward who can score. They are very good with a small forward who is one of the best if not the best at guarding the oponent's best scoring option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Writer
I would love for Bruce to be able to score 10-15 points a night, but you can't have it all. I'm sure the Lakers would love to have a PG who can score and defend like Chris Paul. I'm sure the Nets would love a power forward or center who could score like Duncan, but they don't.
Spurm:
How many 20 ppg SFs are available?
Stephen Jackson, Hedo Turkoglu... how many are we gonna let go?
And how many shots does it take to get 25 against Bowen vs. 30 against Mike Dunleavy?
That's irrelevant. Bowen does make anyone work at all to defend him. I argue that his presence allows defenses to sag.
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Originally Posted by Ghost Writer
Shooting percentage is irrelevant? That's a new one.
And if you recall, when Hedo and Jack were here, Bowen started alongside them.
It is irrelevant.
All that matters is points scored.
Bowen doesn't shut his man down enough to justify his lack of scoring.
As evidenced by all of those Golden State and Phoenix titles.Quote:
All that matters is points scored.
Don't be obtuse.
Score more points and you win.
Right or wrong?
That doesn't mean you don't defend.
But don't act like slowing a guy down and not scoring is better than giving up a few more points, but scoring an adequate amount, too.
Bottom line:
Bowen should be used situationally as a stopper off the bench.
He does not make his man work on the other end.
And he allows defenses to play off him when the Spurs have the ball.
As a team, the Spurs are 9th in the NBA in FG% and 4th in 3pt FG%. There's not much room to improve on the offensive end.
If you want to improve on offense, you upgrade your peripheral players that take shots... your Finleys and your Barrys. Replacing Bruce Bowen with another scorer downgrades your defense (which already isn't very good this year), and likely diverts shots from Duncan, Parker and Ginobili. Unless we're talking about a top tier All-Star here, that's probably not a net gain.
Honestly, if this team needs anything right now, it's a legitimate shot blocker. I don't see how anyone can be so concerned with what the Spurs are doing offensively when it's clear that what is separating us right now from Spurs Champions of the past is the defensive efficiency.
:tuQuote:
Originally Posted by Spurminator
What do the Spurs rank in scoring?
15th, but that's irrelevant. Where did they rank last year? 2005? 2003? 1999?
They're 5th in scoring differential. That IS relevant.
That is a wrong argument there. They're not playing 1 on 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Writer
And it is not always the points you score that constitutes a basketball game. Lot of factors. I know you know that.
C'mon.
Let's see...
In 33 minutes he was 2 for 6 from the floor with 7 points. 1 assist, 1 steal, 0 rebounds, 1 turnover, and 3 fouls.
Yeah, he's killin the haters! :rolleyes
:lol
The first game of Oct. he held your boy Brandon Roy to 2-10 shooting for 7 points and in December he held Roy to 1-9 shooting for 4 points.Quote:
Originally Posted by tlongII
It's just comical to me that the Bowen Blowers® ejaculate every time his man doesn't score or make a play.
I would rather give extended minutes to a player that can contribute on both ends of the floor.
Use Bowen as a situational stopper at this point in his career.
His numbers are disgusting, by the way.
I would like Bowen to score more points night in and night out, but its not gonna happen and the Spurs have been pretty darn successful having it like that. Udoka could be that guy you're talking about, but I'd feel more comfortable having Bowen on the floor when it comes time to stopping someone. I don't think Udoka swipes the ball from Wades hands last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Writer
Yeah that Hedo was such a clutch shooter when he played for the Spurs too.
I agree with that MoSpur.
Bring in Bowen off the bench when you need to slow a scorer down or need a stop.
So what happens if the scorer gets hot at the beginning of the game thanks to not having Bowen on him to start the game?
question
Didn't we have this same argument about Bowen 4 years ago?
Bowen also is borderline dirty, high leg kicks and extending his legs under players as they jump or to trip them up. He is so limited offensively he has to push the limit to dirty play just to stay in the league.
Its better to get a replacement sooner than later before Bowen is worthless on both ends.
Yeah and you guys lost that arguement after his performances in 03, 05, 07Quote:
Didn't we have this same argument about Bowen 4 years ago?
yet your still spouting the same BS.
Benching Bowen makes a ton of sense. A team who's calling card is defense should definitely bench their best defender.
i agree with this. i'd like to see udoka log a few more more minutes per game to keep bowen fresher. bowen does a good job now and his stamina at his age amazes me...but i think we need to limit his minutes so he can come in at key periods of the game and just lock mofos down (like last night) and to keep him fresher for the playoffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoSpur
Don't be dummies.
You bring Bowen in if a scorer heats up.
When you need a stop, you sub for him.
And please don't act like Bowen proved anything more than the Spurs were good enough to win without his offense in the past.
Ghost Writer: Sun Fan. :depressedQuote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Writer
I'm okay with giving more minutes to Udoka.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Writer
that's just it - you start Bowen to keep the other team's best scorer from scoring or at least slow him down and make them adjust. That's part of being a great defensive team. Does us no good if we don't get that done and yet get 15 more points out of someone else instead.
Amare scores > than Tim.
Marion scores >> than Bruce.
Nash scores ~ Manu
Barbosa scores ~ Parker
Hill scores >> anybody else on the Spurs
Spurs are doomed.
Is Ghost Ric Bucher???
Exactly.Quote:
Didn't we have this same argument about Bowen 4 years ago?
Bowen's time will come. But I haven't seen anything this year to suggest he needs to be benched.
Time for what? To be applauded for shaving a couple points off his man's season average, yet not contributing on offense?
What about the part where his man gets to rest instead of guarding Bowen?
Sub him.
I see the pros and cons of benching Bowen and I'd rather start Bowen than Udoka or anyone for that matter. Bowen is just a different kind of beast. I'm glad he starts. I'm glad he finished the game last night.
Bowen should be in at the end of games when the spurs need a defensive stop. But they should have another stronger offensive option for other times during the game at sf.
Bowen should be used as a change of pace substitute.
I like D Wilkins as a young sf option with scoring ability.
:lol
Kay.
Good to have you back, Ghost and Me-Too.
At his age, I think it is time to consider transitioning Bruce to a situational role. He only has value for the Spurs in games they're winning or close. If they're down 10+ then you can't even have him out there.
I see nothing wrong in putting him in a "closer" role defensively the way we use Manu offensively. Udoka is already a pretty decent defender and Bowen can really be a monster defensively if we let him be fresh and limit his minutes. I think a part of why he was so good against Wade in the final minutes was because he didn't play a whole lot vs. LA.
Also, there is a lot to be said about other teams' stars being allowed to rest on defense with Bowen out there. Every time we play the Suns, Nash gets a 20 second vacation on the other end of the court. When Bruce is on the bench, then Stevie can't guard anybody we put out there and we can abuse him.
Pardon us for thinking and telling the truth.
We recognize Bowen's value...
... and his limitations.
:lmaoQuote:
I like D Wilkins as a young sf option with scoring ability
Wilkins is a fucking stiff.
Of course this is the same genius who wanted to trade Manu for Vince fucking Carter.
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Pardon us for thinking and telling the truth.
We recognize Bowen's value
No you don't.
Or else you wouldn't be hanging on to this piece of shit arguement.
Very good post. This clarifys some of the logic behind limiting Bowens minutes and beginning to groom a young future replacement.Quote:
Originally Posted by roycrikside
Well said, roycrikside.
T Park also believes there were Weapons of Mass Destruction.
Sub Bowen. Use him as a situational stopper. Groom someone else.
ask the Suns how that worked out for em in Game 5 last year in the playoffs.Quote:
Every time we play the Suns, Nash gets a 20 second vacation on the other end of the court. When Bruce is on the bench, then Stevie can't guard anybody we put out there and we can abuse him.
Bowen is the player who sets the tone for the Spurs defensively -- especially in the playoffs. You take Bowen out of the starting lineup, you give teams a chance to get rolling early in the game. What sense does that make?Quote:
Originally Posted by roycrikside
Spurs fans with their "Spurs should bench Bowen" ish either don't remember the 2000 season or weren't Spurs fans yet. With Sean Elliott out after his kidney transplant and Mario Elie only capable of being a lockdown defender for a few minutes at a time due to his age, the Spurs used to try to save Elie until the end of games. The result was every star perimeter player would destroy the Spurs and then by the time Elie was called to rescue the situation, it was too late. The star perimeter player was too hot.
To keep a star player from exploding, not letting the star player get rolling is perhaps the most important key. Not even Bruce Bowen will be effective against a Kobe, Wade, Carmelo, etc. if the player is already torching the nets by the time he gets the assignment.
The Spurs win championships with defense. Bowen is the defensive tone setter. You use Bowen as some sort of defensive pinch hitter and it'll be 2000 all over again. Some Spurs fans will be shocked with what they see, while others will have seen it before
Yes, Nash being able to save energy while defending Bowen has really worked wonders for Nash over the years. I mean, all those series he has beaten the Spurs can be traced back to him being able to rest against Bowen. The Spurs need to fix that ASAP :rolleyesQuote:
Originally Posted by roycrikside
Seriously though, whether Nash is on Bowen or Barry or Udoka it doesn't make that much of a difference. I'm glad when I see Nash on Bowen because if Nash leaves him, Bowen is a proven playoff shooter. In fact, Bowen is arguably the most consistent and clutchest three-point shooter in franchise history.
Every year Bowen has been with the Spurs, his three-point percentage has risen from the regular season to the playoffs. Every year. That's an amazing stat and shows how he's legitimate playoff performer on both ends of the court. A team wants to rest a player by putting them against Bowen? Be my guest. I'd rather see Bowen take a wide open three in the playoffs than anyone on this team.
This is this year, T Park.
The Spurs are older, slower and Barry is hurt.
I am so sick of hearing how great a defender Bowen is when the guy that guards him can cheat off him on the other end.
His vaunted defense does not compensate for his awful offense.
We can't keep winning despite him.
Bring his @ss off the bench.
You want to bring Bowen off the bench when the truly great offensive weapons like Elson, Oberto, and Vaughn are playing alongside him? Talk about making Manu go 1 on 5. Bowen needs to start for 2 reasons:
1) Keep the other team's best scorer from going nuts early and putting the Spurs in a big 1st half hole in the playoffs.
2) Keep him on the court with two proven offensive stars in Duncan and Parker along with a still decent shooter in Finley. I think the 2nd unit is much better if Manu has a guy like Udoka who can still defend well but has more of an offensive game.
We had this argument three championships ago. Haters never learn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Writer
I think this view fails to account for the team aspect of basketball. Sure, if Bowen scores only 6 points, and plays good defense but allows 25 points on 18 shots, some might view that as a net loss. Also, you are arguing that Bowen's lack of offense makes him an easy cover by the star offensive player. That's a valid argument.
However, basketball is a team game, and offenses function in such a way that their effectiveness is reliant on the performance of their best players. For example, a team that has a star who produces 25, 30, 35 percent of their points, or a team who has a star that handles the ball for the cast majority of its possessions, is significantly hindered when that star's performance is less than normal. By having a player like Bowen, you are not only making another team's star work for his points, you are throwing their entire offense out of whack, often making other, less skilled players try to compensate. This means that the other team's offense is operating in a way that the team is not comfortable with.
On the other hand, sure, Bowen doesn't do much offensively, but his offensive role doesn't ask him to. Having another team's star rest while guarding Bowen is less of a concern to the Spurs, because the Spurs offense is still functioning normally. And, Bowen's offense is still predicated on the fact that he can hit the open three. So while a defender might be able to relax, they cannot sag off him to help on our other players.
This ability to throw off another team's offensive set, while maintaining our own, is the value of a Bruce Bowen, and it's why the simple "net gain/loss in points" isn't a strong argument.
ajh18, good stuff.
In fact, the only homer to step up and challenge the notion that Bowen costs us on offense and allows his man to rest while not having to cover Bowen on defense.
I guess my concern is that players like Bowen and Vaughn absolutely kill us when the offense is not flowing well.
you mean like when Bowen and Vaughn killed us in last playoffs?
We're not as good as last year, hater. And older.
We're not as healthy as last year and everyone wanted to trade half the team this time last season.