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Is Pop going to go use a similar fouling strategy on Tyson Chandler that he used on Shaq?
I cringed when Pop continuously went to this against Shaq, because it was not very "Spurs-like" and sent the message that he did not have faith in his team's defense, so he had to resort to a Phil Jackson like gamesmanship in order to win.
Do you want the Spurs to win or look pretty?
Spurs must do everything possible to beat the Celtics-Lakers Stern Destiny.
This is survival on the Spurs last opportunity for a repeat.
It is smart, why not play the math. Each time he did it, it not only put the chance that they would score less than 2 points, it also completely through their entire rythym off from coaching changes, to plays, to defense...it frustrated them in all spots and let us get back in rythym.
I think it was extremely smart against a team as explosive as phoenix.
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Originally Posted by Soul_Patch
I seem to remember all of us calling Phil Jackson a major pussy for using this tactic on Bruce Bowen a few years ago....yes?
I have my opinion on this and my opinion is that I did not like the tactic, and thought it was bush league....but you can not argue with the result....I will give you that.
If Chandler's missing his freebies and they have the momentum, I will bet money that Pop uses this strategy. I hate it as well, but you can't deny it's effectiveness.
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Originally Posted by Kermit
It just seems like all the Spurs' moves the last couple of years are creating discussions of all kinds of rule changes, and all refelct negatively on the Spurs.
For example:
Leaving the bench during an on court altercation should not be an automatic suspension, but be up for discussion and interpretation of the intent.
Flopping should be illegal and floppers should get a technical foul, etc etc
Noteam shall foul to gain an advantage and the fouls off the ball should be outlawed etc etc.
If the NBA addresses this 10-year-old problem now, it will only be because the Spurs won while using it. In the past it has been employed primarily against teams that usually won in spite of it (Lakers, Pistons, Spurs). So at that point, I guess it wasn't seen as a problem... but now that the hacking team has WON, and this is seen to be a key strategic maneuver in their victory, NOW it's a problem that needs to be addressed. :tu Super :tu
If I'm right, the Spurs won't do that again this season, even if they play Cleveland in the finals and have Ben Wallace sitting there waiting to be sent to the stripe. I really think that was PSYOPS Pop trying to embarass the Suns.
As I stated earlier. You use every advantage you can get in the playoffs. Use your opponents weaknesses against them.
Shaqs free throw shooting is without a doubt, the glaring weakness on that team. When you have a varied arsenal, you use what you need, when you need it.
Like it or not, it was genius on the part of Pop to do it. In every game. It had to take a mental toll on Shaq, knowing that every possession he may cost them a point or two, simply because he can't shoot a fricking free throw.
It won't work.
Yeah. I'm getting sick of announcers and their "Something has to be done about this" mantra.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurminator
If the opposing team don't like it.....Learn to make free throws. Problem solved.
True, but 99% of that is hatred for the team as a whole. They're smart enough to manipulate the rules to their benefit and instead of emulating those tactics most of the teams,fans and media cry and moan about the unfairness of it all because it's the Spurs. I'm sure there will be something else to bitch about in the upcoming series, some travesty that puts another asterik on a championship run (if we're lucky and good enough to make it through).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimcs50
Chandler is a much better free-throw shooter than his stats indicate. I'll just leave it at that.
He can't be any worse than Shaq and Skinner.
I wrote this in another thread in the NBA section:
I don't like hack-a-Shaq, but since it's well within the rules, if you're going to do it, do it. Don't wait until the fourth quarter. If it's an advantage, use it as much as you can to take advantage of that advantage. That's the genius of Gregg Popovich. Sure, he was micro-managing the game. And, yes it was somewhat painful to watch. And, to a point, it was even embarrassing. But, he knew what the Suns were capable of on offense. That shows respect for the Suns offense, respect towards Shaq as an impact player, and wise strategy to ensure a win even when the Suns make a run later in the game. I really don't like hack-a-Shaq. But, if you're going to use it, take full advantage. Pop shows once again why he's one of the best coaches in the game. There was no shame on his part. He stayed with the gameplan even when Shaq made free throws. And, each time he used it, it helped put his team in better position to win.
He's not at all. Chandler actually bends his knees and flicks his wrist, lol. Idk what the hell Shaq does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kermit
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Originally Posted by Jimcs50
I thought it was sheer genious
pop is amazing
Perhaps, but being able to make them on the biggest stage when you have little experience in the spotlight is all together different, I say.Quote:
Originally Posted by cjjr72984
True indeed, but I'm confident the Hornets will be smart enough not to get the ball in Chandler's hands when the Spurs need to foul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimcs50
Looking at his game log, I think you have a point. I don't see a whole lot of 3-9, 2-11 games.Quote:
Originally Posted by cjjr72984
There are some players who are just bad FT shooters... others just don't shoot enough to get into a rhythm. For example, I think if we had sent Brian Skinner to the line more last night, he would have hit more than his season percentage.
I think the strategy was specific to Shaq and the Suns. And more so than to make Shaq miss free throws, it was used to force D'Antoni to take Shaq out of the game so Shaq wouldn't be there to defend Duncan and protect the paint. I don't think Pop has the same concerns about Chandler. And, while he won't be shooting 90%, I don't think Chandler will struggle the same way Shaq did.
Don't forget the 'hand checking rule' that was instituted about 3-5 years ago...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimcs50
A rule which was supposedly meant to stop Bowen's perimeter defense while helping improve general scoring in the league.
Face it... the Spurs can win despite rule changes which are meant to make them weaker. Duncan, Pop & Co. have overcome.....
No, for a couple of reasons.
Chandler hits 59%, that's horrible, but it's still enough that it's no longer statistically advantageous to put him at the line at the beginning of a possession (they should, however, be willing to foul him quickly if he's looking a dunk).
The Hornets, for all their talent, do not have the numerous offensive options that the Suns have. It's easier (by a relative measure only) to string together a set of stops against their offense.
They did shoot 50% against us this year, which is damn good compared to everyone else. Also out 2 biggest losses this year were at the hands of New Orleans, so our defense against them is not stellar.Quote:
Originally Posted by K-State Spur
59% is not bad enough for hack strategy. so this will not happen with chandler.
I don't like hack a snaq strategy but it worked. Pop is a fucking genius, no other coach in history pulled this strategy so masterfully.
Genius....you say....well this has been going on since Wilt was in the league. There were players specifically on the court to disrupt him this way. Oh and Shaq was hacked during his Laker reign to no affect....as it helps having a guy like Kobe on your team. I agree with the Jim50 as being bush league. Were once it was ok to block shots while it was in the cylinder (Well within the rules at one point and if you were talented or tall enough you could grab the ball prior to it reaching the rim) was changed for the betterment of the game. This will be changed as well.
What I think is so ridiculous about the Hack-a-Shaq complaints, is that you have to be a VERY bad free throw shooter to make it a wothwhile strategy. For example, Shaq shot free throws at 50.3% this year. The expected value of sending him to the line is 1.006 points. This year, according to ESPN, it looks like the Spurs gave up 1.15 points per shot.
Now, an opposing team certainly won't get a shot up on every possession. However, if Pop is assuming that the Suns would get shots up every time he went to it, all their players have to do is shoot 57.5% from the line to make Hack-a-Shaq mathematically useless. That hardly seems like an outrageous demand to place on an NBA player.
NBA strategies have always been designed to force opposing players to rely on their weaknesses. There is a reason teams don't guard Oberto at the 3 point line. There is a reason Pat Riley Basketball involves "no free layups." There is a reason that other teams design defenses that force Bruce Bowen to handle the ball, and Vaugn to take take mid-range jumpers. No one complains about these things, just as no one complains about teams (that are losing) fouling at the end of the game to conserve time and force the winning team to make free-throws. No one complains about time-saving techniques such as a point-guard not touching an inbounds pass until they absolutely have to, to delay the start of the clock.
Rules shouldn't be made to compensate for a player's inability to perform a fundamental skill of the sport. This weakens the game. Shooting 57% at free throws isn't too much to demand.
Pop did a lot of hack a shaqing when we were ahead.....brilliant.
If you can't hit your free throws, don't fucking play basketball.
besides pop showed the world how inept the supposed "most dominate big man" really is, if nothing else Duncan's legend grows and Shaq's is diminishing fast.
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Originally Posted by inconvertible
Give Bruce Bowen credit. He was at one time a victim of this "hack a Bruce", but he got his FT % up to a respectable level, where it made that strategy useless against him.
It's a chinkenshit strategy for a team of pussies.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajh18
If anything, it saved our low post defenders to have to take the physical punishment Shaq deals out in the low post. Before the series, I thought Shaq was going to brutalize KT and TD in the low block. But now, it's full steam ahead. Pop was able to take the physicality out of the series and it should pay huge dividends as we advance.
I didn't mind at all that Pop resorted to this tactic. To me, he is taking this chance to repeat as serious as ever.
Hack a Shaq also adds to the Spurs are boring to watch thinking. It slowed the game down and was boring.
The nba will make changes to the rules so that won't happen next year. The nba wants to promote an entertaining brand of basketball with the big market teams preferibly winning. Big market = bigger ratings= bigger money
How is that rule going to be changed?
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Originally Posted by ajh18
Very good post.
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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Don't know how or even if it will. But they can do something like change it to make the team get the shots and the ball outside of the final two minutes of the game on all intentional fouls.
How does one determine intent for each foul?
please send Chandler to the line. no problem.
Hack a Shaq worked on the Suns because it disrupted their rhythm, Shaq making/missing free throws really didn't matter all that much. The Suns are at their best when they are out running and gunning and playing loose, not in half court sets.
I suspect this strategy won't work against a VERY good halfcourt team in NOH. Plus Chandler is a decent FT shooter, wouldn't want to put that guy on the line like that.
It's not going to work against Chandler. He hits them as frequent as Duncan.
Yea he does. The main reason his FT% is lower is b/c Chandler doesn't go to the line as much. He's a decent free throw shooter though.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpurOutofTownFan
no doubt they took it to the Spurs a couple times this year. however, being able to game plan specifically for them for 4+ games over the next couple of weeks is a lot different than the regular season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimcs50
let us not forget that the Cavs kicked the crap out of the Spurs twice in the regular season last year.
Let's also not forget that the Hornets are a much better team than the Cavs last year (and this year).Quote:
Originally Posted by K-State Spur
Let's not forget that New Orleans, like Cleveland last year are inexperienced and wide eyed, and that my friends is the reason why SA will win this series in 5 games.Quote:
Originally Posted by cjjr72984
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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Thats for the refs to determine. Grabbing and holding fouls off the ball like the ones on Shaq . Its not too difficult to see the fouls on Shaq were intentional.
inexperienced as a team yes but most of our guys have been to the playoffs before. Wide eyed? Unlikely considering their discipline. They are convinced they can beat anyone including your Spurs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimcs50
totally different team. Pop is so accustomed to the Suns that he could predict what that team would do next. this will be the first time the Spurs will facing the Hornets in the playoffs at least in this era. We still don't know how they will respond to us.
i bet Pop is looking at the tendencies of this team, its strength and weaknesses. Part of their success has been their refusal to send the oppossing team on the free throw line. this cuts down the number of free pts that they give up. this is partly because the hornets aren't a deep team. this strength can be used to the spurs' advantage and therefore be turned into a weakness. and if i know Pop, he already has a plan just to do that.
Shaq FG% 62
FT% 51
Chandler FG% 62
FT% 59
It was a good percentage move to do it to Shaq, because the disparity was about 11%. That's not the case with Chandler.
let me think ummm NO
They will not change the rule. Shaq will be gone in 2 years and no other player will get the attention that Shaq has gotten and be that bad a FT shooter. The point is moot.
You stole my topic!
"Chandler shoots 59%... time for hack-a-chandler? Lord, I hope not.
After the season this rule will be changed and so it should be. Intentionally fouling players should be an INTENTIONAL FOUL - it ruins the flow of the game, destroys it as a spectacle, and is against the spirit.
That we used it in this series is fine - we used the rules that were there at the time to our advantage. However, I hope the NBA changes the rules in the offseason. FT shooting contests generated from intention fouls are not BASKETBALL."
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=153
I bet Pop does use it if he needs to slow the momentum of a game at some stage. It's in the rules, so fair enough, but it's ugly freakin basketball.
TRUST
IN
THE D.
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Originally Posted by RuffnReadyOzStyle
I did not read your post, so I did not steal your topic.
You are wrong, they will not change the rule, for the reason I stated above. Shaq is leaving the league and it is not worth changing a rule that has been part of bball stategy for 50 yrs just because of 1 playoff series.
If you are victin of this stategy, then get better....Bowen did, Shaq needs to work on his FTs, you do not change a rule because 1 player sucks at something, and teams take advantage of that weakness....that is ludicrous, and anyone that believes that is mis-guided