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Laker Fan... trading Duncan is not the same thing as trading Shaq, because you can't build a team around Tony Parker the way you can around Kobe Bryant. There's nothing the Spurs can do but keep on with the Big 3 and hope some low-percentage signings, trades, and draft picks pan out. They've been doing that for the past couple of years, which most moves turning to crap in their hands (Francisco Elson, Jackie Butler, Matt Bonner, etc.). In the meantime, they somehow won a fourth title anyway.
Chump any remote possibility that Darius comes back with the Spurs? :rolleyesQuote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Not to mention that Duncan's game isn't built on athleticism, unlike Shaq's. A 35 year old Duncan will still be playing at a high level. But the Spurs will definitely have to upgrade the athleticism and youth of the supporting cast, after spending the last few years largely ignoring this and throwing away what younger talent they had for nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Extra Stout
Come on people. Pop has used free agents for years and has done it better then anyone. Pop learned long ago its easier to use veterans then bring in rookies.He bascially lets someone else break them into league, then utilizes them or goes after established veterans like horry, willis, and Fin to name a few.
Look at list of names who have come here in last 9 years.This is just off the top of my head and there are a ton more Im sure.
Finley
Horry
Jaren Jackson
Stpehen Jackson
Hedo
Nazi
Willis
Barry
Elson
Kersey
Anderson
Rose
Perdue
A 32-year-old Duncan is already obviously in decline. I think your assertion about his playing at a high level at 35 is wishful thinking. He's apparently not Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Hakeem Olajuwon after all in terms of longevity. The end is closer than you want to believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holt's Cat
The team cannot simply snap its fingers this summer and summon athletic young talent than can contribute. They needed to be laying the groundwork for that already. For years people fretted about Bruce Bowen aging. The solution is Ime Udoka. He's not good enough. For years people fretted about the aging and depleted frontcourt. The Spurs fumbled away Luis Scola and miscalculated on Tiago Splitter. They convinced themselves that Jackie Butler was not as mentally retarded as he appeared to be. They guessed that they could do something with Francisco Elson. They imagined that Matt Bonner was the heir to Big Shot Rob, rather than an unathletic redheaded scrub who could shoot a little. Now it's Ian Mahinmi or nothing.
While the roster concerns that had been pending for years developed into crises, now new holes have appeared. The Spurs' best option for a change of pace at shooting guard is a 36-year-old coming off two calf tears. Oh, he also is the best option to back up Tony Parker now.
They can't just suddenly decide to change course this summer and think that it's all going to get better. The failures of the past few years are coming home to roost as, amidst watching the fetid failures of the nursing home brigade take their toll on the Big 3, we come quickly to an offseason where the cupboard of developing talent is all but bare and there's not much hope Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili will have much more help next season than they did in this one. And, that lack of help is now noticeably shortening Duncan's and Ginobili's primes.
The Spurs need to think of Game 5 tonight in light of the likelihood that this is their last good chance to win another championship.
The hell? Putting up 20/20 in the WCF is declining? Shit, no other PF/C in the 4 teams that are left playing are putting those numbers consistently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Extra Stout
If there's something POSITIVE about this season, is to see that TD still can dominate in the playoffs.
He's not dominating. He shot 42% against the Hornets. Lest anyone think that Tyson Chandler is an incredibly gifted defender, he's followed that up with 44% shooting. 44%? Against Pau Gasol? It's very nice that he can grab rebounds every other game against tough, brawny big men like Gasol and Vlad Radmanovic, but his offensive game is a tiny fraction of what it used to be, and he regularly runs out of gas in the fourth quarter now.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Pointing out the obvious decline in his play is not the same thing as saying he sucks now. Clearly he doesn't suck; he's just not the dominant player he used to be and who he needs to be for the Spurs to win titles. You will hear "he sucks now" so that you can have a straw man to argue against, because you don't want to deal with the sound of that window slamming shut.
i wouldn't be bragging about pop's genius in snagging finley and horry right about now.
Game 5 of the 2005 Finals vindicated the Horry signing for all eternity.Quote:
Originally Posted by sedale threatt
Those signings won 2 rings.Quote:
Originally Posted by sedale threatt
Yeah those were stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Extra Stout
Duncan's had problems in his career with long, athletic defenders. Plus it was the Hornets' team defense in that series more than anything, and a stomach virus or whatever.
Yes, the supporting cast is the real issue. I'm still not sure what RC was thinking with Scola, other than he was pressed into that move for financial considerations.
The Spurs have a fair amount of contracts coming off the books this summer. So the Lux Tax monster shouldn't be an issue now. We will see if they will put to use their cap exceptions and their picks.
It's a bit early to write these Spurs off. The hard problem of finding three championship level stars to build the squad around has been solved. I think Pop and RC have focused a bit too much on surrounding those 3 with experienced vets. But they've been forced to bring in young talent and develop it before. That looks like what will happen now.
I think Pop has more patience today than he had a couple seasons ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
I think 2003 and 05 proved Pop will play younger players when given to him and if they play defense. I mean Stephen Jackson and Speedy Claxton are proof positive putting them over guys like Kerr and Steve Smith, that Pop will go with the youngsters.Quote:
It's a bit early to write these Spurs off. The hard problem of finding three championship level stars to build the squad around has been solved. I think Pop and RC have focused a bit too much on surrounding those 3 with experienced vets. But they've been forced to bring in young talent and develop it before. That looks like what will happen now.
Pop's reliance on older players recently is a function of several items: 1) Holt's pocketbook, 2) Pop's sentiment for folks who have "paid their dues" and the sense of "owing" something to guys who helped you win a championship the year before are all part of this, and 3) the fact that the Spurs never repeated (they changed rosters at least a little bit in each of the years following the championships before, and Pop the FO got hit for "breaking up a winning team" each time.
1. Does anyone remember that the Spurs almost lost Robinson because we didn't want to pay him ( for his last contract)? That Sean Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Lu ck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_ had to agree to restructure his last years of his contract to free up money for other players before he left? That Duncan had to agree to take less money in order to get enough money to have a chance at resigning Ginobili when he comes up? That Michael Finley is essentially being paid by Cuban, and that he and other "older players" have been willing to play for less than they could get elsewhere in order to have a shot at a championship?
I don't blame Holt for being a sound businessman. It is a reality, though, that the Spurs ownership group ( it is not just Holt and it includes some folks with deeper pockets than Holt, even) is not willing to go over the salary cap, and when you have any "big three" ( and without three you really won't contend for a championship anymore), there is simply little to none left over for others.
2. Pop's sentimentality comes into play for guys who have "come up the hard way". I think it reminds him of him being told that he wasn't quite good enough for the olympic team in his day. Whatever the reason, he really likes to take guys who have been elsewhere and are hungry enough to try overcome a lack of natural talent with hard work and savvy. That often translates into older players near the end of their careers. Remember that Duncan came in a rookie, but as the first draft pick. Pop had to be forced to
take Parker by his assistant coaches, and only after several tryouts...And Ginobili was a European superstar before he ever got here. (Even with all of this, Pop still defers to Finley's fragile psyche over Ginobili).
3. The Spurs have never repeated a Championship, and each time Pop and the FO have been accused of not staying with a winning formula (i.e., keeping virtually the same team together). So this year, even if we lose, it won't be because we didn't keep the group together.
3. In the last
It's nice to see that my ol' pal and I can see eye-to-eye on each other's viewpoints after all these years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holt's Cat
Which young player did Pop fail to develop?
Beno?
I think there were some that weren't kept of course, but for the most part the young guys never made the team in the first place. The ones that did? White, Washington -- longshots who aren't in the league anymore. It happens.
I don't know of any young guys the Spurs have given up on in the past couple years that are worth a crap.
When I see JV and the mighty mouse I wonder what the heck happened with Antonio Daniels.
I don't know if I agree with developing young talent when you've got Duncan, Manu and Parker together to contend now, but I do have a problem with never signing or trading for younger talent that can produce.
The only guys we sign to enter the rotation are over 30.
Why Mahinmi didn't get any NBA time in the middle and later in the season, if only to soak up minutes and get real experience, is freaking beyond me. Even if Washington wasn't great, was it not a better idea to keep him than sign Suckamire?
How are the rookies going to learn if they don't get some minutes and learn from mistakes?
It's fine if Pop wants to stick with vets in the playoffs but young guys need some burn in the regular season to get better.
Washington is quite overrated on this board. I would have brought up Langford if anything, and that isn't saying a whole lot.
Which young guys?Quote:
Originally Posted by loveforthegame
Ian? Hard to tell if he would last long enough in an NBA game this season to make a difference in his development.
People are treating Darius Washington as if hes the next John Stockton for godsake.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Washington >>> Stoudamire
That's all I was saying.