Nash: Suns Better, Deeper Than Last Year

[dirk4mvp]

Wow, the suns really are a great defensive team like most suns fans here say. Giving up 44 to the Lakers with 8:30 left in the 2nd is DYNO-MITE !

[jman3000]

this is some class A ownage. very high quality.

JMJ stuffed it up his ass pretty good.

[JMarkJohns]

JMJ stuffed it up his ass pretty good.

It's never easy calling a fellow fan out. Hopefully DannyB tones down the trolling and comes back towards fandom, and far away from fanaticism like da_suns_fan__... This board needs good Suns fans who can post objectively, critique and hold their own. It doesn't need more homers who troll just to troll.

[SpursIndonesia]

No. I'd agree that it wasn't a domination. Any Spurs fan saying such is grossly overstating as much as those stats you mentioned. It was a very, very tight series. Horry doesn't wallup Nash, or Amare and Diaw show some self-restraint and who knows. Problem is that average PPG or whatever other stat is meaningless. The only average that matters in a seven-game series is the average number of wins. In the last two Spurs/Suns series, unfortunately for Suns fans the number is 4-to-1.5...

Here's the problem with taking issue to Spurs fans rhetoric. Most times they exaggerate to pound home a point made in response to some moronic claim made by a troll. I'm not saying it was in response to something you've said. I didn't read the last three pages in this thread. However, it's an offensive defense that's employed when their les are attacked, something that happens daily thanks to the BS of da_suns_fan__ and yourcheatinheart. So, you can either help the problem or continue it. If you're smart enough to identify Spurs fan hyperbole, and smart enough to know that statistics could help you back up a claim contrary, then perhaps, and I pray, that you're smart enough to know that hitching your wagons to Suns trolls isn't the best way to be taken seriously, if that's even your intentions at all.

I don't know, but what I hate as much as the Suns losing to the Spurs is seeing trolls make the team I bleed for a laughing stock on these boards. There have been a number of very good Suns fans on this forum over the years, a good half dozen no longer even post, maybe even because of the BS from Suns trolls.

If this forum has reputation system, this is a +1 for U. Appreciated the effort & gesture.

[T Park]

JmarkJohns is very underrated.

I wish he had less of a life and posted here more often

[SpursFanFirst]

JmarkJohns is very underrated.

I wish he had less of a life and posted here more often

I agree

[vicphoenix]

You make no sense whatsoever in your argument. I'd say that winning MVP 2 straight years, and being hyped up so much year after year, but never getting to the Finals, only getting dominated by the Spurs and Mavs, should call up some questions as well.

Great, just what we need here... another idiot Suns fan that doesn't know what the he is talking about.

Actually, your the one not making any sense. When Nash won the two MVP awards, he backed it up with strong play in the postseason. Dirk failed miserably in the postseason after being awarded the MVP. Also, I want to know how the Mavs have dominated Nash. Does your selective memory push aside the 2005 postseason when Nash destroyed the Mavs? The only team that can contain Nash is the Spurs.

[Johnny RIngo]

What did Steve Nash do that makes you hate him so much?

He's an overhyped player that doesn't deserve his accolades. His numbers are inflated thanks to the running system D'Antoni employs. He's really just a watered down version of John Stockton, minus the defense. Isiah Thomas, Payton, Stockton, and Kidd are all better than Nash, yet none of them have a MVP trophy to call their own. Ridiculous, considering the fact that those four led their respective teams to the Finals(something Nash won't ever do).

It isn't like he crowned himself the MVP.

You're right. It was the Phoenix media that crowned him MVP.

To call Nash a liability just shows how your letting your hatrid blind you. There isn't one team in the NBA that wouldn't want Nash. I find it funny that you think Dallas is so much better defensively without Nash. You forgot to mention that Nash never had Avery Johnson as his coach. Or the fact that Shawn Bradley was the Mavs starting center when Nash was there. You think a team can be good defensively with a stick figure in the middle? But is Dallas really that much better defensively?

Yes. Dallas were the 26th best (or the 4th worst) defensive team in Nash's final season with them. The year after they had the 9th best defense.

In 2005, Nash torches Jason Terry in the Suns/Mavs playoff series
In 2006, Dwyane Wade leads the Heat back from a 2-0 deficit to a le
In 2007, Baron Davis destroys Jason Terry and leads the Warriors to the biggest playoff upset in NBA history
Seems like the replacement for Nash didn't fare so well. Great defensive teams don't let one player beat them.

You're right. Unfortunately, for you, it wasn't one player that beat them. The '05 S0ns had 3 players that hurt the Mavs. The '06 Heat had a very good Shaq and Wade combo at work(very similiar to the effective Shaq-Kobe duo). 2007 was a combination of a terrible match-up with Avery's poor coaching at work.

It's very rare for any team to win a championship without, at least, two legit all-stars on the squad.

While Nash isn't a great defender, he isn't a liability like you claim. He led the Suns in charges drawn last season and before you say he flops, remember what Ginobili gets away with.

I've already adressed this point. All Nash can do is flop. His defense is so attrocious that he's limited to exaggerating contact to win back possession of the ball. Manu and Devin flop too, but they also play good defense

Nash's defensive composite score is 2.9. Compare that to 60.4 for Ginobili and 54.0 for Devin Harris.

Ringo has turned into a whiner and your points are pretty spot on.

Sorry, but whining is exclusive to Phoenix S0ns fans. I'm only bringing some much needed truth.

Let's not forget that the new starter at PG (Devin Harris) hangs his defensive hat on excessive flopping..

Harris is a better defender than Nash, regardless if he flops or not.

Wow, RIngo, they beat the Cavs... they must be good.

Dallas made the Finals. S0ns get squashed every year by superior teams. What has Phoenix done in the post-season aside from beating an injury plagued Lakers and a mediocre Clippers team. Looks like they can't even beat the Lakers anymore, based on last night's game.

Why do the Spurs put Bowen on Nash?

I guess Parker is just as useless a defender, huh?

That clip of Bowen knocking down a three in front of Amare says it all. Nash didn't even make an attempt to run over and defend the shot. He just waited for it to go in.

Parker may not be a good defender but at least he hustles on both ends of the court. The reason why the Spurs were able to dispatch the Nuggets so quickly was Parker's surprisingly efffective D while Bowen was switching defensive assignments from AI to Carmelo.

Wow. What an amazing version of history. You're really a crazy dumbass, aren't you? Suns in '93 was a conspiracy or something?

This is hilarious, coming from a fanbase that thinks the Spurs '07 championship is a conspiracy. You can dish it out but you can't take it, eh?

Nash is the all-time most incompetent defender?

When you consider all the modern MVP winners, Nash is easily the worst of the bunch. And I'm not even talking about defense. Defensively, he's far below all the others.

Nash didn't deserve his MVPs?

He didn't. Nash doesn't deserve to have more MVPs than a 4-time champ like Shaq or the same amount of MVPs as a 4-time champ like Duncan.

You're on a roll. Any more totally re ed personal opinions?

Translation: Johnny's facts scare me so I'll just insult him some more.

Dominated? Seriously?

15-6 vs Nash and the S0ns sounds like domination to me.

I think Spurs fans just want to fondly remember it that way, but I remember that even Popovich said they didn't ever want to see the Suns again after Game 6. Hardly the kind of thing he'd say if he thought the Suns were pushovers, or that the Spurs had dominated.

Duncan thought the Nuggets were tougher than the S0ns.

[JMarkJohns]

Duncan thought the Nuggets were tougher than the S0ns.

Physically tougher, yes, but I don't think his quote applies to the series. Denver is the more physical team down low, something that bothered Duncan personally, thus the quote. However, I can't imagine Duncan saying the Suns series wasn't as tough as the Nuggets, when the Nuggets were dispatched in five faily simple games, while the Spurs had their hands full of the Suns in every single game played, save for maybe the last. One shot here, another there and it's a radically different series. Could have easily been a hard-fought five-game win for the Spurs as it could have been a 4-2 win for the Suns (games 1, 3 and 5 were VERY close).

Credit the Spurs for keeping their heads on straight and doing what was necessary to pull out each tough victory, but in no way was the Denver series a harder/tougher series win than was the Suns.

[Findog]

Nope, there is a difference between team accomplishments and personal accomplishments. Teams like the Spurs, Suns and Mavs expect to win the championship or else the season isn't a success. The responsibility on the star player is to play up to expectations. If the star plays poorly like Dirk did against the Warriors, than questions are asked.

So it's not Nash's fault at all that he sucked in Game Six of the 06 Conference Finals? He played like in an elimination game and his team lost. That's the narrative I don't understand. Nash has had great playoff performances, he's sucked at other teams, you can say the same for Dirk, and yet Dirk has taken his team further. And one player is the epitome of "clutch" and the other is the epitome of "choke." Incomplete assessment for both players. I'd rather have Dirk.

[JMarkJohns]

Until you've won a le, I don't think you can ever enter a season EXPECTING to win one. It's failed the Suns several times since their Finals appearance in 92-93. The two years following vs. the Rockets, last year and probably this year.

I mean, having never done it, how can they even know what to expect, therefore how can they expect to know how to/how they will react.

[vicphoenix]

So it's not Nash's fault at all that he sucked in Game Six of the 06 Conference Finals? He played like in an elimination game and his team lost. That's the narrative I don't understand. Nash has had great playoff performances, he's sucked at other teams, you can say the same for Dirk, and yet Dirk has taken his team further. And one player is the epitome of "clutch" and the other is the epitome of "choke." Incomplete assessment for both players. I'd rather have Dirk.

Nash was no where near as bad as Dirk in their respective elimination games. Besides, look at who they were playing. Dirk should have beat down the Warriors considering their lack of defense. Nash had to go up against the Spurs who are the best defensive team in the NBA.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'm still unsure about the claim that this Suns' team is deeper. Having watched virtually all of the game at Seattle and the second half of the game against LA, I don't see that there is any appreciable improvement in the Suns' depth. To the contrary, it seems pretty clear that if Amare gets into foul trouble, as he is wont to do, the Suns are going to get prison raped in the paint by teams that have any sort of inside presence (SA, Dallas (to an extent), Houston, LAL, Utah, Denver to name a few). It also appears that in that cir stance, they're going to have an extremely difficult time rebounding the ball and stopping possessions. If they aren't hitting shots on the other end of the floor -- as they weren't against LAL (better in Seattle) -- I don't know how they can expect to stay in games for very long under those cir stances.

I realize it's very early and that things tend to take shape over time for the Suns, but I don't think they've ever been this thin up front. I just don't see that this is a deep team -- it's a team with a bunch of wings, but that doesn't make it deep, in NBA terms.

[JMarkJohns]

I'd like to think that a bad start forces Sarver to use that trade exception they received from Seattle to acquire a big man. Unfortunately, I think it'll be his excuse to blow the whole thing up, which, if they had drafted players like Deng, Williams, Millsap and Splitter when they had their chance, may not be a bad idea, but with very little young talent, and even fewer picks in the next three years, it could be a long time before Phoenix is good again. Sarver walked into a prime position and has scrimped/misspent his way into almost entirely blowing it.

[Warlord23]

The suns might be deeper in terms of ballhandlers and shooters (the latter is debatable), but they definitely look thinner on defense, specially at the C/PF positions.

And it's not like they have played a dominant big yet. Wilcox, Collison, Bynum, Kwame Brown, Turiaf: that's what they have been up against so far, and they have had serious trouble in defending them and keeping them off the glass.

Stoudemire is still a foul machine. Skinner is average on both sides of the ball. Grant Hill is a worse defender than James Jones was. Marion doesn't seem to be hustling on defense yet. Can't wait to see them go up against Duncan, Yao, Garnett, etc.

[SpursIndonesia]

I think Phoenix mishap had come when they chose the wrong player in 2005. They decided to keep Marion & let Joe Johnson go. IMHO, if they instead decided to trade Marion and keep Johnson, they would be forced to form a more traditional type of team, with Nash, Johnson, Diaw, Stoudemire, any serviceable defensive big. It might not be the media darling of regular season & king of NBA scoring chart, but in the playoff, i'm gonna like their chance for championship. Ofcourse, that would also require the Suns to replace their playoff incompetent coach, but that's just me.

EDIT: Ooops, Diaw come from the exact trade with the Hawks, Okay i got it wrong there. But if Marion was traded, that should be able to get you a good player or two.

[stretch]

Actually, your the one not making any sense. When Nash won the two MVP awards, he backed it up with strong play in the postseason. Dirk failed miserably in the postseason after being awarded the MVP. Also, I want to know how the Mavs have dominated Nash. Does your selective memory push aside the 2005 postseason when Nash destroyed the Mavs? The only team that can contain Nash is the Spurs.

Mavs - 0 les.

Suns - 0 les.

It still hasn't changed. It doesn't matter how far you go, or don't go... the fact is, if you didn't win, you ing lost. Accolades, stats, and honors mean nothing without the win.

[stretch]

Nash was no where near as bad as Dirk in their respective elimination games. Besides, look at who they were playing. Dirk should have beat down the Warriors considering their lack of defense. Nash had to go up against the Spurs who are the best defensive team in the NBA.

Dirk was also being doubled or even tripled just about every time he touched the ball. The majority of the rest of his team was choking all series, thus no one bothered playing any defense on them, and just focused on Dirk. It's a little too much to ask of just about anyone to have to constantly beat double and triple teams every possesion. That is when your teammates have to hit their open shots, and Dirk's teammates did not in that series. I can't count how many times Dirk was doubled, then kicked it out to Jason Terry for a wide open jumper, and had to watch him miss. If Jason Terry simply had hit his open jumpers, more than likely, it would have been Dallas winning in 6, as it would have helped open up the offense and spread GS's defense vastly. But the fact is, he didn't, and the Mavericks lost the series.

The bigger fact is...

Suns - 0.

Mavs - 0.

[DannyB]

So many helpful opinions about what the Suns should do to win a championship, what they should have done in past seasons and drafts, and how they should manage their rotation ... and all of it from a bunch of idiot Spurs fans who think just because their team won last year, they know everything about every player and team in the NBA. Oh, and SpursIndonesia: Suns didn't DECIDE to trade Joe Johnson instead of Marion, Johnson gave them no choice.

[mardigan]

So many helpful opinions about what the Suns should do to win a championship, what they should have done in past seasons and drafts, and how they should manage their rotation ... and all of it from a bunch of idiot Spurs fans who think just because their team won last year, they know everything about every player and team in the NBA. Oh, and SpursIndonesia: Suns didn't DECIDE to trade Joe Johnson instead of Marion, Johnson gave them no choice.

Your probably going to get opinions of Spurs fans on a Spur board stupid , quit crying already.

[samikeyp]

Danny,

What about those opinions from the Suns and Mavs fans in this thread? Or is it just all Spurs fans that are idiots?

I know my opinion doesn't count because technically I don't exist, because no one outside San Antonio roots for the Spurs.

[FromWayDowntown]

So many helpful opinions about what the Suns should do to win a championship, what they should have done in past seasons and drafts, and how they should manage their rotation ... and all of it from a bunch of idiot Spurs fans who think just because their team won last year, they know everything about every player and team in the NBA. Oh, and SpursIndonesia: Suns didn't DECIDE to trade Joe Johnson instead of Marion, Johnson gave them no choice.

Do you just about anyone else having an opinion or do you offer reasonable counter-arguments?

Are you suggesting that I lack any ability to evaluate NBA teams simply because I've been a Spurs fan and have followed the NBA for almost 30 years?

I'm very interested in having a discussion with someone who can tell me how, exactly, it is that the Suns are a deeper team in 2007-08 than they were in 2006-07, since part of Nash's statement giving rise to this thread mentioned the Suns' improved depth.

[CubanMustGo]

So many helpful opinions about what the Suns should do to win a championship, what they should have done in past seasons and drafts, and how they should manage their rotation ... and all of it from a bunch of idiot Spurs fans who think just because their team won last year, they know everything about every player and team in the NBA.

1. Won last year, two years earlier, two years before that, and 1999. Get your facts straight.
2. Why exactly are you participating on a discussion on SPURStalk.com ? If you want homervision go to one of your little boards where other team's fans aren't allowed to say .

[LakeShow]

[QUOTE=FromWayDowntown]Do you just about anyone else having an opinion or do you offer reasonable counter-arguments?

Are you suggesting that I lack any ability to evaluate NBA teams simply because I've been a Spurs fan and have followed the NBA for almost 30 years?

I'm very interested in having a discussion with someone who can tell me how, exactly, it is that the Suns are a deeper team in 2007-08 than they were in 2006-07, since part of Nash's statement giving rise to this thread mentioned the Suns' improved depth.[/QUOTE]

I would like to hear that too!

[ShoogarBear]

Are DannyB and da_suns_fan in some sort of compe ion?

Because DannyB is kicking his ass.