Duncan and Jeter

[lefty]

Sorry if already posted....

http://select.nytimes.com/2007/06/19.../19araton.html

[Galileo]

Sorry if already posted....

http://select.nytimes.com/2007/06/19.../19araton.html

I can tell you why Slam Duncan is not more publisized....

It is a national media conspiracy and nothing more. The same thing happens to Ron Paul.

Conspiracy to over-promote: Jordan, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, and Lebron.

Conspiracy to under-promote: Slam Duncan.

Have YOU been brain washed by the mass media?

Did YOU know Duncan is the greatest of all time?

You are not alone…

Billions of people have been brain washed!

But you can defeat the powers of evil

Remember..
Slam Duncan is the greatest NBA player. Not Jordan.

The Libertarian Party is the greatest political party.

Not democrats. Not republicans. Not republicrats.

9/11 was an inside job. Bush did it. Not bin Laden.

Galileo Galilei is the greatest scientist. Not Newton. Not Einstein.

James Madison is the greatest Founding Father.

Origen Adamantius is the greatest Christian. Not Jesus.

Don't let the mass media brain wash you again!

[Summers]

Someone forgot his meds this morning.

[duncan228]

Duncan is not more publicized because he chooses not to be.
His game has always spoken for him.
He's turned down more opportunities for endorsements than some players are ever offered.

He carefully picks what he wants to endorse, makes about 3.5 million from them, (last I heard), and puts that money back into his foundation.

I believe the NBA loses by not promoting a man of this character more. But the NBA is a business, and a guy like Duncan doesn't sell like LeBron and Kobe.

In the end it's okay with me. Duncan is more decorated than anyone active.
He will go down as one of the all time greatest.

And besides the mark he'll leave in this game he will leave a more important mark with the foundation he runs for prostrate and breast cancers, bereaved children, and his character program for local school children.

At the end of the day, what's more important?
Jersey sales or making a positive impact in many people's lives?

[raspsa]

Watching TD is like watching a master craftsman going about his art, totally focused in what he is doing to the exclusion of everything else. It would detract and distract from his work if he allowed what others think and say about him affect his way of doing things. And, ususally, the finished piece is well worth the effort.

[MrChug]

Someone forgot his meds this morning.

I know funny and THAT'S funny...nice job.

[dbreiden83080]

It is all about where he plays. I live in NY and am a Yankees fan so i see Jeter first hand day in and day out and he is just like Duncan. Great player but soft spoken leader who leads by example and not with harsh words for his teammates or the opponents. In the locker room he is vanilla and quite boring at times. You want someone to give you a memorable quote it is never going to him EVER. The difference is he plays in NY for the most traditioned and successful franchise in all of pro sports. When you have great success in NY especially with the Yankees you are golden to the media and a large degree of the public. If Duncan was a Knick and has won 4 les he would be a media darling, whether he wanted it or not. Ewing was on the verge of being a media darling countless times in his career, if he had just gotten over the hump and won one le he would have been beloved to no end in NY and the national media.

[FirebatMIV]

It is all about where he plays. I live in NY and am a Yankees fan so i see Jeter first hand day in and day out and he is just like Duncan. Great player but soft spoken leader who leads by example and not with harsh words for his teammates or the opponents. In the locker room he is vanilla and quite boring at times. You want someone to give you a memorable quote it is never going to him EVER. The difference is he plays in NY for the most traditioned and successful franchise in all of pro sports. When you have great success in NY especially with the Yankees you are golden to the media and a large degree of the public. If Duncan was a Knick and has won 4 les he would be a media darling, whether he wanted it or not. Ewing was on the verge of being a media darling countless times in his career, if he had just gotten over the hump and won one le he would have been beloved to no end in NY and the national media.

There's a couple of differences between Duncan and Jeter

1) Duncan is the best player on his team, Jeter is not
2) Duncan is an outstanding defensive player, Jeter is not
3) Duncan will go down in history as the greatest player at his position, and perhaps the greatest player of his generation, Jeter will not

All in all, the article comparing Duncan to Jeter is doing Timmy a great disservice.

[dbreiden83080]

1) Duncan is the best player on his team, Jeter is not

That is debateable especially amongst Yankee fans who feel that A-Rod is not clutch in the playoffs and Jeter is proven in that area. To me Jeter is the best on the team.

2) Duncan is an outstanding defensive player, Jeter is not

3 straight Gold Gloves and counting, yes Jeter is a Great defensive player. He is not Ozzie Smith but he is very solid fundamentally and one of the greatest athletes to ever play the position.

3) Duncan will go down in history as the greatest player at his position, and perhaps the greatest player of his generation, Jeter will not

You are friggin kidding me with this one here. Jeter is on track to have more than 3,000 hits almost 2,000 runs scored and hit roughly .320 for his career. He will set many Yankee club records and he has 4 rings and a WS MVP. I will give you A-Rod who is now a 3rd baseman so i am being generous but i dare you to give me 3 other guys that are better than Jeter all time at his position, by all means who are they??

All in all, the article comparing Duncan to Jeter is doing Timmy a great disservice.

Duncan is a better all time player at his spot than Derek but a disservice, no way in . Jeter has accomplished a great deal in his career he will go down as one of the great players.

[FromWayDowntown]

I don't think the point of the column was to make a talent-for-talent comparison. Regardless of whether you think Jeter either to be among the greatest shortstops to ever play the game or as a great player with holes in his game, the truth is that he is a dominant force on a perennial championship contender and has become the leader of that team despite his quiet personality.

Tim Duncan's individual greatness has been secured, but the point of the column is to note that Timmy, like Jeter, is the dominant force on a perennial championship contender and has become the leader of that team despite his quiet personality.

The comparison is spot-on, as far as I'm concerned. And I don't see it as any disservice to compare Timmy to Jeter.

[dbreiden83080]

I don't think the point of the column was to make a talent-for-talent comparison. Regardless of whether you think Jeter either to be among the greatest shortstops to ever play the game or as a great player with holes in his game, the truth is that he is a dominant force on a perennial championship contender and has become the leader of that team despite his quiet personality.

My initial comment was in response to the article i am simply replying to another poster who wanted to slam Jeter compared to Duncan in terms of his skills. He seemed to feel like Derek is not an all time great enough player to even warrant the comparison to Duncan and that is not even remotely true. I initially spoke of why Jeter gets more pub than Duncan mainly because he is in NY and stayed away from those other issues.

[FromWayDowntown]

My initial comment was in response to the article i am simply replying to another poster who wanted to slam Jeter compared to Duncan in terms of his skills. He seemed to feel like Derek is not an all time great enough player to even warrant the comparison to Duncan and that is not even remotely true. I initially spoke of why Jeter gets more pub than Duncan mainly because he is in NY and stayed away from those other issues.

I was agreeing with you.

[dbreiden83080]

I was agreeing with you.

I see i thought you were just talking to me since you did not quote the other poster and maybe had not read my first post.

[Reggie Miller]

That is debateable especially amongst Yankee fans who feel that A-Rod is not clutch in the playoffs and Jeter is proven in that area. To me Jeter is the best on the team.

Well, to the rest of the world, Jeter is only fifth on his own team in OPS+.

Rodriguez, Alex = 183 OPS+
Posada, Jorge = 160 OPS+
Duncan, S ey = 133 OPS+
Matsui, Hideki = 128 OPS+
Jeter, Derek = 126 OPS+

There is absolutely no question about it. Jeter is not, and has never been, the best hitter on the Yankees.

3 straight Gold Gloves and counting, yes Jeter is a Great defensive player. He is not Ozzie Smith but he is very solid fundamentally and one of the greatest athletes to ever play the position.

If you use Gold Gloves to evaluate defense, then I am probably wasting my time. The Gold Glove is a popularity contest. Rafael Palmeiro won the Gold Glove three years in a row for 1B in 1997-99. This is interesting, becuase he was actually a DH. Palmeiro made 28 starts at 1B during 1999. Clearly, the Rawlings Gold Glove is an infallible indicator of defensive prowess.

Jeter probably isn't even the best defensive SS on his own team. He certainly wasn't when Rodriguez was still playing the position.

You are friggin kidding me with this one here. Jeter is on track to have more than 3,000 hits almost 2,000 runs scored and hit roughly .320 for his career. He will set many Yankee club records and he has 4 rings and a WS MVP. I will give you A-Rod who is now a 3rd baseman so i am being generous but i dare you to give me 3 other guys that are better than Jeter all time at his position, by all means who are they??

How about five?

1. Honus Wagner
2. Pee Wee Reese
3. Alex Rodriguez
4. Cal Ripken, Jr.
5. Ernie Banks

I could probably name five more, but that would require some serious number-crunching. Jeter is an awesome baseball player, but he is nowhere near the elite status you have granted him.

At one point, Reggie Jackson was on pace to break every single offensive record on the books. That didn't work out so good. Rodriguez is currently on a similar pace. Jeter will earn a spot in the HOF, but a lot can happen between now and 3,000 hits. (In all honesty, I think he makes it.)

Duncan is a better all time player at his spot than Derek but a disservice, no way in . Jeter has accomplished a great deal in his career he will go down as one of the great players.

Yes, largely becuase he plays on the New York Yankees.

To clarify, I am not a Jeter detractor, and I would love to have him on my team. However, Yankee fans don't seem to have any sense of perspective where he is concerned. He is NOT one of the all time great players. He might end up there, but don't hold your breath.

[Jelly]

My initial comment was in response to the article i am simply replying to another poster who wanted to slam Jeter compared to Duncan in terms of his skills. He seemed to feel like Derek is not an all time great enough player to even warrant the comparison to Duncan and that is not even remotely true. I initially spoke of why Jeter gets more pub than Duncan mainly because he is in NY and stayed away from those other issues.

I agree with what you say but want to ad that Jeter is known as one of the most marketable players in all of sports. And THE most marketable in MLB. He is the handsome, amiable, glamourous face of baseball. He is straight out of central casting... the perfect image that MLB wants to project.
A-Rod doesn't come close to him in this area. Also, I believe he is now 3rd behind Joe Dimaggio in Yankee hits or something? Read it somewhere recently.

[FromWayDowntown]

I see i thought you were just talking to me since you did not quote the other poster and maybe had not read my first post.

I should say, that I was agreeing with your point about the general premise of a comparison of Jeter and Duncan being fair.

I don't know that I'm willing to call Jeter an all-time great shortstop -- had he started his career in Kansas City, I'm not sure he'd be considered among the best in the game during this era.

[dbreiden83080]

If you use Gold Gloves to evaluate defense, then I am probably wasting my time. The Gold Glove is a popularity contest. Rafael Palmeiro won the Gold Glove three years in a row for 1B in 1997-99. This is interesting, becuase he was actually a DH. Palmeiro made 28 starts at 1B during 1999. Clearly, the Rawlings Gold Glove is an infallible indicator of defensive prowess.

Jeter probably isn't even the best defensive SS on his own team. He certainly wasn't when Rodriguez was still playing the position.

While the Gold Glove is flawed it is not something that can just be thrown out by any means. It is a measure of greatness defensively that is accounted for over and over when measuring a players greatness. Ozzie Smith is not in the Hall of fame for his offense and while he was was vastly better in that area than Jeter his Gold Gloves helped a lot in getting him in the hall of fame. Does the GG mean everything, of course not but you can not throw it out.

How about five?

1. Honus Wagner
2. Pee Wee Reese
3. Alex Rodriguez
4. Cal Ripken, Jr.
5. Ernie Banks

I could probably name five more, but that would require some serious number-crunching. Jeter is an awesome baseball player, but he is nowhere near the elite status you have granted him.

You can name 5 more when your first list is mostly suspect, okay good luck with that. Lets go over this shall we. Ripken you have to tell me which player you are talking about here? The SS or the 3rd baseman. Through his career at SS he is comparable to Jeter in almost every way statistically. Hits Runs scored, He has more HR's than Jeter but Jeter has a far better BA than Ripken who is only a .271 hitter for his career, Jeter is at .317. Now some of those years it was dropping for Ripken as he played a few years too many so i will not kill him too much for that. He has 2 GG's to Jeter's 3 and 2 league MVP's to Jeter not having any whom i feel got robbed of it in 99 and last year. Jeter has 4 rings and a WS MVP, Ripken has none of either of those. These guys are very comparable in almost every way.

Banks great player but again you are not being accurate in how many years they played SS. Banks was more of a first baseman than a SS and during his years at Short he has the better power numbers but Jeter had the vastly better BA and hits, Runs scored and yes the championships.

Pee Wee Reese:

Oh boy well i am going to have to go to the numbers on this one.

Reese in 2063 games at short hit a mediocre .271 with 2096 hits.
Jeter in 1835 games has a .317 BA with 2356 hits. He finished his career with less hits then Jeter has RIGHT now with far less accomplishments and had to get into the Hall by way of the Vets Commitee. Jeter is going to get in by way of votes easily.

Honus Wagner i am going to give you but again that is close not a slam dunk by any means especially since Jeter is still in his prime with more to do. Their stats with years played at SS are close in so many ways.

I said other than A-Rod since now he is a 3rd baseman that is a stretch so i am not going to cover him. To me i am only give you one here and that is Wagner. Ripken is on par with Jeter as a SS and the other guys Jeter is better than either because he trumps them with both stats and accomplishment or because they did not put in enough time at the position.

[Reggie Miller]

While the Gold Glove is flawed it is not something that can just be thrown out by any means. It is a measure of greatness defensively that is accounted for over and over when measuring a players greatness. Ozzie Smith is not in the Hall of fame for his offense and while he was was vastly better in that area than Jeter his Gold Gloves helped a lot in getting him in the hall of fame. Does the GG mean everything, of course not but you can not throw it out.


You can name 5 more when your first list is mostly suspect, okay good luck with that. Lets go over this shall we. Ripken you have to tell me which player you are talking about here? The SS or the 3rd baseman. Through his career at SS he is comparable to Jeter in almost every way statistically. Hits Runs scored, He has more HR's than Jeter but Jeter has a far better BA than Ripken who is only a .271 hitter for his career, Jeter is at .317. Now some of those years it was dropping for Ripken as he played a few years too many so i will not kill him too much for that. He has 2 GG's to Jeter's 3 and 2 league MVP's to Jeter not having any whom i feel got robbed of it in 99 and last year. Jeter has 4 rings and a WS MVP, Ripken has none of either of those. These guys are very comparable in almost every way.

Banks great player but again you are not being accurate in how many years they played SS. Banks was more of a first baseman than a SS and during his years at Short he has the better power numbers but Jeter had the vastly better BA and hits, Runs scored and yes the championships.

Pee Wee Reese:

Oh boy well i am going to have to go to the numbers on this one.

Reese in 2063 games at short hit a mediocre .271 with 2096 hits.
Jeter in 1835 games has a .317 BA with 2356 hits. He finished his career with less hits then Jeter has RIGHT now with far less accomplishments and had to get into the Hall by way of the Vets Commitee. Jeter is going to get in by way of votes easily.

Honus Wagner i am going to give you but again that is close not a slam dunk by any means especially since Jeter is still in his prime with more to do. Their stats with years played at SS are close in so many ways.

I said other than A-Rod since now he is a 3rd baseman that is a stretch so i am not going to cover him. To me i am only give you one here and that is Wagner. Ripken is on par with Jeter as a SS and the other guys Jeter is better than either because he trumps them with both stats and accomplishment or because they did not put in enough time at the position.

I'll grant you that Jeter starts looking better if you consider the category you have identified as "accomplishments." However, you can't do that with baseball, becuase only two teams made the post season for almost three generations. There just weren't as many awards before divisional play.

We can skip Wagner, since we agree on him. That's one.

Pee Wee Reese is mostly in there for defense and his peak value. I agree that his career value is not as high as Jeter's. Admittedly, this was my "reach." I will cheerfully withdraw his name in the sake of amity.

Ripken's peak value occurred in a more compe ive era (as defined by balance between hitting and pitching), and I put him slightly above Jeter for this reason. I agree that Jeter's career is most comparable to Ripken's at this point. When it is over, it is likely that Jeter will surpass him, but it hasn't happened yet. Still, we'll skip him as well.

Banks's best years came at SS. His peak values are higher than Jeter's. When you account for the difference in eras, his power numbers and peak values are much higher. The fact that he didn't play his entire career at SS is irrelevant to me. He has turned in some of the most dominant seasons at that position. By your argument, it is like Banks never even played. I can't compare him to shortstops, becuase he played at other positions in his career. By the same token, I can't compare him to left fielders or first basemen, becuase he played so much of his career at shortstop... That's two.

I don't see how you penalize or discount Rodriguez for switching to 3B, for the reasons mentioned above (Banks). However, this seems particularly disingenuous when Jeter was part of that equation. That is, Jeter could have offered to go to third instead of putting Rodriguez there. The truth is that Jeter's numbers don't look nearly as good as when compared to third basemen (nor do Rodriguez's or any other shortstop's stats for that matter). There is no question that Rodriguez is the better overall hitter and that Rodriguez's peak value at SS exceeds Jeter's peak value. That's three.

Again, I'm not down on Jeter. Several of my relatives work for the Mohegan Sun and know him fairly well. They all say that he is a cool dude in a loose mood. Since they were able to get everyone in the family a personalized autograph, I tend to believe them!

I just think people tend to give the "accomplishments" too much weight (in a sport that didn't even have regular individual awards for several decades) and maybe count some chickens that haven't hatched yet. Jeter could have a career-ending injury later this week. Obviously, that would alter this discussion considerably, as would an injury to Rodriguez.

As FWD mentions, Duncan and Jeter are fairly comparable from an organization's perspective. Both are the faces of their franchises, consistent performers, good with the media, are active in the community, stay out of trouble, etc.

I just can't agree that Jeter is among the top three all-time at his position, much less the best, as of today. Since his career isn't over, I guess we are both wasting our time.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I am not a fan of Alex Rodriguez.

[FirebatMIV]

While the Gold Glove is flawed it is not something that can just be thrown out by any means. It is a measure of greatness defensively that is accounted for over and over when measuring a players greatness. Ozzie Smith is not in the Hall of fame for his offense and while he was was vastly better in that area than Jeter his Gold Gloves helped a lot in getting him in the hall of fame. Does the GG mean everything, of course not but you can not throw it out.

Yes, you can and probably should. For example, Torii Hunter once won a Gold Glove despite missing 90+ games. Guys like Pudge Rodriguez and Todd Helton have kept winning Gold Gloves despite being overtaken by younger and better defensive players.

Looking at defensive metrics - both traditional (Range Factor, Zone Ratings) and Sabermetrics (Runs Above Average, Probability of Range), Derek Jeter has been in the bottom three of almost every defensive category since 2002. So yeah. He's a pretty awful fielder.

You can name 5 more when your first list is mostly suspect, okay good luck with that. Lets go over this shall we. Ripken you have to tell me which player you are talking about here? The SS or the 3rd baseman. Through his career at SS he is comparable to Jeter in almost every way statistically. Hits Runs scored, He has more HR's than Jeter but Jeter has a far better BA than Ripken who is only a .271 hitter for his career, Jeter is at .317. Now some of those years it was dropping for Ripken as he played a few years too many so i will not kill him too much for that. He has 2 GG's to Jeter's 3 and 2 league MVP's to Jeter not having any whom i feel got robbed of it in 99 and last year. Jeter has 4 rings and a WS MVP, Ripken has none of either of those. These guys are very comparable in almost every way.

Banks great player but again you are not being accurate in how many years they played SS. Banks was more of a first baseman than a SS and during his years at Short he has the better power numbers but Jeter had the vastly better BA and hits, Runs scored and yes the championships.

Pee Wee Reese:

Oh boy well i am going to have to go to the numbers on this one.

Reese in 2063 games at short hit a mediocre .271 with 2096 hits.
Jeter in 1835 games has a .317 BA with 2356 hits. He finished his career with less hits then Jeter has RIGHT now with far less accomplishments and had to get into the Hall by way of the Vets Commitee. Jeter is going to get in by way of votes easily.

Honus Wagner i am going to give you but again that is close not a slam dunk by any means especially since Jeter is still in his prime with more to do. Their stats with years played at SS are close in so many ways.

I said other than A-Rod since now he is a 3rd baseman that is a stretch so i am not going to cover him. To me i am only give you one here and that is Wagner. Ripken is on par with Jeter as a SS and the other guys Jeter is better than either because he trumps them with both stats and accomplishment or because they did not put in enough time at the position.

Honus Wagner and Ernie Banks were better SS than Jeter. I would also contend that Robin Yount should be on that list. He If you want to go way back, Arky Vaughn should be on it as well. Yount was almost as good as Jeter as a hitter in a much tougher ballpark (115 OPS+ vs. 123 for jeter career wise, with Yount's downside already calculated in). Not to mention Yount >>>>>>>>>>Jeter defensively. There's four, you asked for three. Is there any doubt Duncan is top 5 all time? Is there still any doubt he's tops all time now?

[Galileo]

I know funny and THAT'S funny...nice job.

Has anyone seen my meds???



"Better medicated, than dedicated."

Roy Tarpley

[dbreiden83080]

Yes, you can and probably should. For example, Torii Hunter once won a Gold Glove despite missing 90+ games. Guys like Pudge Rodriguez and Todd Helton have kept winning Gold Gloves despite being overtaken by younger and better defensive players.

Strange how all these things you mentioned did not net Jeter any GG awards earlier in his career. I admit there are times when they get it wrong but at least 2 of his 3 GG awards they very much got it right. Jeter has improved his range by quite a bit since 2003 and he is one of the most athletic players to ever play that spot. How many players then or now can go into the hole and backhand a ball jump off one foot and throw a perfect strike to nail the runner time in and time out? How about his great ball flip in game 3 of the division series against the A's protecting a 1 run lead if the yanks lose they go home and Jeter from out of nowhere makes one of the most storied defensive plays of all time. The great DIVE into the stands against the Red Sox in 2004 when he made the play and came out of the stands a bloody mess giving everything he had and then some, huh what about all that?? Don Zimmer once said that Jeter charges the ball and gets it out of his glove better than any player he has ever seen at short and he has been around the game forever. When they handed out the GG awards each of the last 3 years, Tim Kurkjian the head baseball man at ESPN agreed each year that Jeter was the best that year and deserving of the award and he is a straight shooter not some ass kisser of Jeter. I am not saying he is among the greats ever defensively but he is very good you telling me he is a lousy infielder is not in line with the facts and just makes you reek of a anti-Yankee and Jeter bias. Probably some of the same kind of bias that robbed him of league MVP last year.

Honus Wagner and Ernie Banks were better SS than Jeter. I would also contend that Robin Yount should be on that list. He If you want to go way back, Arky Vaughn should be on it as well. Yount was almost as good as Jeter as a hitter in a much tougher ballpark (115 OPS+ vs. 123 for jeter career wise, with Yount's downside already calculated in). Not to mention Yount >>>>>>>>>>Jeter defensively. There's four, you asked for three. Is there any doubt Duncan is top 5 all time? Is there still any doubt he's tops all time now?

Robin Yount is not a better SS than Jeter. We are talking about only the years they played at that spot and he does not measure up at all.

In almost 1600 games at short he hit only .286 with 128 HR's and a little over 1700 hits. Compare that to what Jeter has done at basically the same point and he kills Robin in BA, hits, Runs scored, he has more RBI's more HR's and Jeter is not exactly a powerhouse. He won one gold glove and appeared in one World Series. Jeter trumps Yount at short statisically and in terms of accomplishments. Jeter has appeared in 6 WS has won 4 of them and was WS MVP in 2000. Jeter is a great post-season player i know they play more rounds now than they used to but he has been the best of his era in taking advantage of that to the tune of more post-season hits than anyone in his era. By his Era of post-season i am saying from 1996 until right now. By what measure do you deem Yount better than Jeter at Short?? He comes up short on every level that can be be reasonably measured by anyone who is looking at this objectively.

[FromWayDowntown]

Jeter has 4 rings and a WS MVP, Ripken has none of either of those.

Ripken has a ring (1983). But for Jeffrey Meyer, he might have 2. . . .

[dbreiden83080]

Ripken has a ring (1983). But for Jeffrey Meyer, he might have 2. . . .

Yes you are right i missed that one but Yanks were beating the O's Meyer or not that was destined to happen that year in 96.

[Поповић]

Duncan
Jeter
Woods
Sampras
Brady

[dbreiden83080]

I'll grant you that Jeter starts looking better if you consider the category you have identified as "accomplishments." However, you can't do that with baseball, becuase only two teams made the post season for almost three generations. There just weren't as many awards before divisional play.

I agree with you there that has to be factored into the equation but i also just can't throw out all the WS rings and appearances either. Jeter was a great player on the 98 Yankees who are one of the best teams of all time winning a 114 games during the year and went on to sport a total record including the postseason of 125-50, now that is awesome.