These games are just uninspiring and mind-numbing. For the life of me, I just can't grasp what the Pop's really trying to do . . .
He's not tanking, as Tim and Manu are still out there busting their ass and Tony's been playing hurt up until today. But he's not trying to win, as he's never given the team and players any type of consistency to build anything fruitful.
Meanwhile, Keith Bogans continues to get his minutes and Hairston (the guy who outplayed him and, for all intents and purposes, beat him out for the job) can't even sniff the action -- Mahinmi was given up upon before being given the opportunity to be given up on (his option wasn't picked up, so allowing him to help or be useful for the time he's here just doesn't make sense ... right?).
This team's flawed; has been since Day 1. I never happened to drink the Kool-Aid that this team had what it took to win a championship with this group, or that RJ possessed the type of game to really propel the Spurs to the next level. The Spurs have won with a consistent formula consisting of particular types of players filling particular, specialized roles, and they didn't replenish those requisite facets/needs with the right people -- Bowen, Horry, Barry and serviceable 7-footers aren't made up for by Bogans, Bonner, Mason and a plethora of wings 6-7 or below manning the middle for an aging Tim.
So if I understood that going into the season and many others did as well, surely Pop and the crew knew they had some work to do. I mean, I know they were hopeful and optimistic (and they had reason to believe this team could be one or two, right, moves away from capturing another le), but they couldn't have been blind or ignorant of their reality, right?
And that was the outlook and hope for this presently constructed team given good health . . .
They haven't been healthy, and they still haven't filled those integral roles for their championship formula -- what's ensued has been predictable (to an extent; no one could see this cluster of cir stance) and woefully below their standard. So the fact that they're not in the championship discussion is more frustrating and depressing than surprising.
Surprising is the thought process and rationale we've come to expect from Coach Pop. I've never witnessed a year, with him at the helm, that lacked as much discipline and consistency as this one. There's just no reasonable end-game to the logic or payoff for the madness -- it's simply throwing against the wall and seeing what sticks (he's acquiesced to the point of losing his core, proven principles. Only the flesh he inhabits suggests he's the man that's guided this team to four les).
So I accepted this team's fate a good while ago and have been bearing witness to their games more than living or dying with each win or loss -- even lowered expectation can't prevent the empty feeling these outcomes bring, though. (Watching Tim play at this level and knowing that it's not promised for next year, just makes you sick to the stomach.) But watching Hill and Blair grow has been a bit of a saving grace. A glimmer of hope moving forward, at least.
This all-in bet the team placed was for a two-year window, and it could still be cashed in. They'd have to make some great, shrewd and smart moves, but, theoretically, it could be done. So if this team's going nowhere this year and the health of Tim, Tony and/or Manu is paramount moving forward, it's time for the team to start gearing up for next year. Allow the young guys to play through mistakes, evaluate them, maybe take a flier on a D-Leaguer or someone of that ilk, and bury Bogans, Finley and Mason on the bench -- see if you have or can find the perimeter defender needed and/or a cheap supporting cast member for next year.
Again, give me a light at the end of the tunnel, a reason to look forward to the game and, just maybe, a glimmer of hope.
That's all I ask.
Here's what many people have failed to realize: Bowen and Horry are irreplaceable. No, they weren't Hall-of-Famers or even All-Stars, but they were two of the best role players of all-time and they fit this team, both on the court and the culture of the team, to a tee. So it's easy to say "they haven't replaced Bowen, Horry (and to a lesser extent, Barry)", but honestly, they couldn't/can't.
What they could have done is brought in a legit wing stopper, instead of masquerading Udoka 2.0 as one. They also could have brought in a combo forward who can guard mobile four's, instead of using a mul ude of options to do that, all of which are unappealing and ineffective. But still, nobody they could have realistically brought in would have replaced the "corporate knowledge" of Bowen/Horry.
I agree, though, that the Spurs need to find out what they have with Mahinmi/Hairston. Bring in an Almond now, find out what he can do. Don't wait until next season and have the same questions with regards to Hairston, or think about the latest one that got away, in Mahinmi (I doubt he makes a Scola level impact and don't get me wrong, I wanted Udrih gone too, but he, like Udrih, could very well show he's a capable rotation player), or wonder "is Almond (insert any D-Leaguer's name you want) an NBA player/fit on this team?". They need to find all of that out now.
If I'm the front office, I'm already planning for next season. Unfortunately, their two biggest needs: wing stopper and athletic, shot blocking man, are likely to go unfilled. Unless you consider Bell or someone of that ilk the answer to the former and Splitter the answer to the latter.
Like I said in the "building for the future" thread, I'm guessing Ginobili and Hairston are re-signed and Splitter, Bell, Cook and Almond are signed, which leaves the 1st round pick (I'd assume it'll be an SF or a SF/PF) and third PG left. Is that a championship caliber team? Unless Splitter makes a fairly sizable impact and Bell finds the fountain of youth, it isn't. The others? Filler/cheap replacements for the players likely to depart.
Some are saying this and that, but forget about 6'9 athletic Gist who can board and shoot too! I bring him in next year and Splitter, play Hairston and Ian now and get ready for next year, they can be a key to a le run! These older role guys are not working, it's clear as day. Let Mason go, let Finley go, Let Bonner GO! Get some new guys in here and let them play now or early next year! The future can still bring another le, but this team now is taxed.
Did you watch Gist in the '09 summer league? He was one of the worst players on the team and like McClinton, didn't look like anything resembling an NBA player. Sure, he has the physical tools, but that's not enough. Even before that, Gist was a fringe prospect and a long shot to be a long term NBA player. Hairston and Mahinmi I'm intrigued with and think both could be rotation players in the NBA, but neither will ever be a "key to a le run!". It's going to take myriad things, all more profound than throwing a bunch of random young, athletic players on the court, to get this team back to being a championship caliber team.
You want to play Hairston/Mahinmi or D-League players when Spurs are trying to make the playoffs? Do you know what would happen if Pop did this and they fall to 9th or 10th place? Good God! Fans need to realize the grass is not always greener on the other side of the mountain. If Hairston or Mahinmi wants to play let them earn a spot by showing it in practice. Putting these two out there 'so we can see what they can do' is something no coach would do during a regular season game.
Tonight Tim, Manu, and Dice scored 67 pts. Add Hill in there and we break 80. It is quite clear that our additional role players are where we are falling short. As Detroit killed us on offensive rebounds, you couldn't help but wonder why a 7-foot shot blocker continues to ride the bench and why for much of the period where the game was lost (despite Manu's heroics) nobody over 6'7 was on the floor.
OK Thunder is going to be a tough one. I hope somebody in our locker room has some kind of plan.
Right, because Hairston/Mahinmi, because they don't play, that automatically means they're worse than Bonner/Bogans. Who cares if they get 7th or 8th and get embarrassed by the Lakers or Nuggets in the first round or get 9th or 10th and don't make the playoffs? Unless you're Holt (or just trying to be technical), there is no difference.
Hairston clearly earned a spot with his play in summer league/training camp/preseason, yet when the real games started, Bogans was mysteriously ahead of him in the rotation. Why? Because he's a veteran NBA player, which automatically means, in Pop's mind, that he's better.
Something no coach would do? You obviously don't follow the NBA very closely. Let me give you an example: the Pacers benched Ford, a proven NBA player in the prime of his career making $8 million a season, for Price, an unproven late 2nd round pick and why? Because they wanted to find out, in a lost season, if Price is an NBA player and if he could help them going forward.
The most frustrating aspect of this season to date is how Pop seems bent on winning his way or not at all. The chances this team wins a championship are very small but the chances of this team winning a championship with Keith Bogans playing meaningful minutes are non existent. He's an incredibly below average NBA player and should not be used or viewed as anything more.
Pop needs to start Richard Jefferson and he needs to start McDyess and he needs to play the players on this team with the highest ceilings. That means that he's going to have to settle on a rotation and that on some nights players in that rotation will not do as well as others or make mistakes but that shouldn't mean a knee jerk lineup change. The Spurs are who they are and at this point the best approach to take is a hands off approach.
The micromanaging of this team reeks over Pop's lack of humility. The man acts as if he can make something happen by tinkering with every aspect of the rotation but all that ends up happening is players have lost confidence or have become more mired in quicksand than ever.
The Spurs are who they are and if these talented players are going to figure out how to play with each other in an effective manner then they're going to do it through extended playing time and not because of some new lineup Pop has come up with. Its time to play the most talented players on the team and its time to let them figure things out for themselves.
PS Never play Bogans again. Not if you're down to 5 players. Keep him on the bench and deal with the technicals. Seriously.
No, you're never going to replace the Horry's and Bowen's of the world with an equal, identical player. But it's not about finding their carbon copy. You're looking to find comparable skill sets and character that can become a working part of the needed supporting cast -- a different build, personality or area of expertise, there's nothing wrong with that.
So it's not that they haven't found someone with Horry's clutch shot-making and intelligence as a stretch 4 or that they haven't replaced the relentless, tireless, and lockdown defender Bruce was for years ... it's that they attempted to address each respective loss with players that had neither the tools, a en or ability to even approximate those two's contribution -- if you can't address something adequately, it's an effort in futility to find close enough and hope for the best.
In other words, don't prevent yourself from finding the next Horry (as it pertains to the team) by thinking he can't look more like Haslem -- chasing the perfect mold, almost always nets an inferior player to fill it.
Agree. And as it pertains to the corporate knowledge, you're right. They couldn't have brought anyone in to replace it as if it were something tangible. But you've got to attempt to bring in the type of player that's capable of acquiring and utilizing it effectively. You can't simply do without.
A championship-caliber supporting cast can come in all shapes, sizes and skill sets (as long as they're in compliment to the stars), but there's a common thread with which they're made up and of the character they possess.
Obviously, the amount of help the Big 3 needs is greater than it's ever been and changed as their effectiveness has waned -- there's no guarantee that the complimentary player of yesteryear has the same effect or benefits as they would've in the past, nowadays. But there's no doubt that without the right supporting cast, a championship's out of the question -- they're out there to be molded in theory, but theories are often left empty.
There's no getting around needing the right players to win it all, which is why so few ever get the opportunity.
Well, they've got Hairston and Mahinmi in the fold (which would seem a decent pair to evaluate for the suggested roles), but it's become pretty clear that the latter, for whatever reason, isn't in their plans. There's no reason Hairston shouldn't be given Bogans minutes and the opportunity to prove his worth moving forward, though. And, no, I wouldn't view Bell as the answer on the wing or a position defender like Splitter becoming an athletic, shot-blocking big.
I've yet to really sit down and put to the screen exactly how I'd move forward. There's just too many variables to consider: Is RJ moveable and at what cost or lack thereof; what's Manu's market and can he be retained without preventing the Spurs from acquiring the needed, complimentary talent to win a le; is moving Tony the only way to bring in enough, or the right, parts to put the team back into contention; is Splitter really going to sign; and what will the Draft bring? To say nothing of the CBA, there's plenty to consider.
As you and many know, I'm hoping to see McGuire here and given an opportunity next year. I've got to believe he's going to come cheap, given he's a role player that's been buried on an also-ran's bench, but there's no one else I've really targeted of that ilk -- I'm very much open to any and all with the requisite size and tools for each respective role.
Spurs are trying to keep playoff position. Huge difference.
Finley and Bogans didn't earn the playing time they've gotten, so anyone that suggests Pop's rotations are based upon who earns it has no foundation for their argument.
a lottery pick 2010?
(the first one in 13 years. Tim was the last)
(ok, half serious, half gallows humor)
however, I'm a draft maniac anyhow and to tell the truth, in the last weeks I started to put players on my watch list, who are ranked in the # 10-15 region by the mocks.
(Greg Monroe anyone? Splitter-Blair-Monroe.....that could be a great frontcourt in some years)
I think, just ,maybe I figured out what Pop is trying to do. He knows that there is no way we can match the bigs of the Lakers. He must have surmised that he has to take the bigs off the floor by making LA match up against smaller and quicker players. (of course our smaller players are notoriusly slow and old)
If this doesn't work during the regular season and we miss the playoffs then maybe we get lucky in the lottery. No way Mahinmi will resign with the way he has been treated this year, so no need to play him. No need to waive Ian because Pop does not want to give him a chance to go off this season while we struggle inside.
Call it Popalogical.
defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense defense
....that's the reason, the answer and the riddle.
The hardest thing for me to watch is this teams lack of direction. Surely they do not think that they can win it all with this current group of players, but at the same time nothing was done to fix that with a trade...one that would either help this year or give the team some options to look at next year. If the Spurs have scrapped the "all in" mentality then they need to do it and go into full rebuild mode. If not, they need to do what is necessary to keep this compe ive. But hey, with the decisions that Pop is making right now one must wonder if a trade would even help.
My biggest fear in the next two seasons is this team becoming like the early '90's Celtics or the '01-'03 Jazz...teams that are trying blindly to hang on to things that gave them past success when it is obvious that those days have ended and it's time to start over.
And we haven't even played Cleveland yet. Lebron is going to quadruple double us if Keith Bogans is our lock-down guy.
This team needs to be blown up. I'm not ready to give up on Tony, as long as he gets some rest this summer. And god bless Manu and Tim, they've been busting their asses. Blair and Hill are solid role players. But everybody else needs to be traded or let walk after they expire.
But then comes the tricky part. Do you really try to rebuild around our aging "big 3" again in hopes of winning a fifth ring? At one point point do you give up and give Tim the option to be traded so he can search for his fifth ring elsewhere?
This is the best, down to earth, observation I've seen on this board by a long time Spurs fan. As much as other fans complain about the other guys, in my mind the Big 3 are the ones who aren't getting it done, especially at the ends of games. Manu played huge in the fourth but he also turned the ball over three different times if memory serves me correctly.
I'd also say that as big as Manu is for the Spurs, Tony's impact is bigger.
I think I have figured this out, ok Pop is not playing these Malik and Ian because he would look bad if they come in and actually give the team a spark and having everyone say that he should have been playing these guys alot earlier kind of like the the George Hill thing from last years playoffs, so it is my belief that his reputation is far more important than possibly having these guys save their season....lets see what all the Popsuckers have to say!
I don't really blame for not giving playing to prospects like Hairston or Mahinmi. It's not like they are some kind of great prospects who could have a big impact.
IMO, Pop's biggest mistake is the lack of consistency in his choices. This team badly needs chemistry and Pop is changing his mind for every game. Bonner went from starter to DNP-CD. It's impossible for a team to get some kind of iden y with a coach like that.
Spurs' FO also deserve to be blamed for having done nothing at the trade deadline. Even if the RJ trade hasn't worked, I think it's damn stupid to have given up on the season like they did. With a good trade and some players playing better, Spurs could have done some noise this year and be a solid outsider. By standing pat, Spurs have no chance at all.
The Spurs did worse than stand pat, they gave away a center for nothing when everyone else is trying to get bigger to compete with LA.I don't really blame for not giving playing to prospects like Hairston or Mahinmi. It's not like they are some kind of great prospects who could have a big impact.
IMO, Pop's biggest mistake is the lack of consistency in his choices. This team badly needs chemistry and Pop is changing his mind for every game. Bonner went from starter to DNP-CD. It's impossible for a team to get some kind of iden y with a coach like that.
Spurs' FO also deserve to be blamed for having done nothing at the trade deadline. Even if the RJ trade hasn't worked, I think it's damn stupid to have given up on the season like they did. With a good trade and some players playing better, Spurs could have done some noise this year and be a solid outsider. By standing pat, Spurs have no chance at all.
Ratliff was at the deep end of the bench. Spurs didn't get significantly worse. I also think Spurs will sign another vet PF/C for the playoffs (if they make it).
oh . I just realized Bonner didn't play
If Pop is making such huge changes then that is exactly the reason why he needs to insert Hariston + Ian.
So what? Not playing him was as much a mistake as getting rid of him. If you want to compete with the Lakers, you just got rid of your tallest guy with NBA experience.
In an unrealistic wish, I want to see how Finley/Bogans/Jefferson beats Hairston/Ian/Ratliff in 1-on-1 or 3-on-3 games before I'm convinced about the playing time they get.
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