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  1. #1
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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  2. #2
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    Again, pure rabble-rousing, bubba-inflaming campaign noise.

    Takes 37 states and YEARS to modify the Cons ution. And 100s of $Ms govt spending. What spending cuts do the Repugs propose to offset the Cons utional change?

    The anchor babies are an easy target. The discussion about fixing immigration is for some mysterious reason absent any concrete, workable proposals from Repugs. Changing the Cons ution isn't workable, it's pure politics.

    And if they can make retroactive back to babies of black slaves, then the Repugs will sweep all the Southern/border/rural states.

  3. #3
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Again, pure rabble-rousing, bubba-inflaming campaign noise.
    Changing the Cons ution isn't workable, it's pure politics.
    It's been done 27 times...

    Next?

  4. #4
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    When was the last time? The ERA fiasco?

  5. #5
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Also, the case has been made that the change could be done with congressional legislation and doesn't require amending the amendment.

    The granting of automatic citizenship comes from a misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment. It was drafted after the Civil War to guarantee that the recently freed slaves gained full citizenship rights. When it was enacted in 1868, there were no illegal immigrants in the United States because there were no immigration laws until 1875. So drafters of the Amendment could not have intended to benefit those in our country illegally.

    There are three reasons why Congress can and should act:

    1. No Supreme Court case has dealt directly with the offspring of illegal immigrants and the question of automatic citizenship.

    2. The Cons ution expressly gives Congress the power to decide national immigration policies.

    3. During the debate on the 14th Amendment in 1866, the senator who was the author said it would “not of course include persons born in the United States who are foreigners ...”

  6. #6
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    This doesn't fix the immigration problem AT ALL.

    Thanks for playing. The rabble is wonderfully roused.

  7. #7
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    For this, no ex post facto though.

  8. #8
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    This doesn't fix the immigration problem AT ALL.

    Thanks for playing. The rabble is wonderfully roused.
    Did I say it fixed the immigration problem?

    Pay attention dumb .

  9. #9
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    This doesn't fix the immigration problem AT ALL.

    Thanks for playing. The rabble is wonderfully roused.
    I am also ok with making immigration policy changes at the same time, however to imply that this does nothing to fix immigration is disingenuous at best considering it removes at least one motivation for coming over.

  10. #10
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    More about the origin of the citizenship clause...(from Wikipedia)

    There are varying interpretations of the original intent of Congress, based on statements made during the congressional debate over the amendment.[5] During the original debate over the amendment Senator Jacob M. Howard of Michigan—the author of the Citizenship Clause—described the clause as excluding American Indians who maintain their tribal ties, and "persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers." He was supported by other senators, including Edgar Cowan, Reverdy Johnson, and Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Lyman Trumbull.[6] Howard further stated the term jurisdiction meant "the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now"[6] and that the United States possessed a "full and complete jurisdiction" over the person described in the amendment.[7][8][6] Other senators, including Senator John Conness,[9] supported the amendment, believing citizenship should cover all children born in the United States.
    In Elk v. Wilkins, 112 U.S. 94 (1884), the clause's meaning was tested regarding whether birth in the United States automatically extended national citizenship. The Supreme Court held that Native Americans who voluntarily quit their tribes did not automatically gain national citizenship.[10]
    The clause's meaning was tested again in the case of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898). The Court ruled that children of non-citizen Chinese immigrants possessed national citizenship by being born in United States.[11]
    The difference between "legal" and "illegal" immigrants was not clear at the time of the decision of Wong Kim Ark.[12] Wong Kim Ark and subsequent cases did not explicitly decide whether such children are en led to birthright citizenship via the amendment,[13] but such birthright is generally assumed to be the case.[14] In some cases, the Court has implicitly assumed, or suggested in dicta, that such children are en led to birthright citizenship: these include Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202 (1982), and INS v. Rios-Pineda, 471 U.S. 444 (1985).[15][16][17]
    Loss of national citizenship is possible only under the following cir stances:
    Fraud in the naturalization process. Technically, this is not loss of citizenship but rather a voiding of the purported naturalization and a declaration that the immigrant never was a United States citizen.
    Voluntary relinquishment of citizenship. This may be accomplished either through renunciation procedures specially established by the State Department or through other actions that demonstrate desire to give up national citizenship.[18]
    For much of the country's history, voluntary acquisition or exercise of a foreign citizenship was considered sufficient cause for revocation of national citizenship.[19] This concept was enshrined in a series of treaties between the United States and other countries (the Bancroft Treaties). However, the Supreme Court repudiated this concept in Afroyim v. Rusk, 387 U.S. 253 (1967), as well as Vance v. Terrazas, 444 U.S. 252 (1980), holding that the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment barred the Congress from revoking citizenship.

  11. #11
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    Problem is, there are so many hispanic voters now, that politicians might pussy out instead of doing the right thing and fixing this problem.

  12. #12
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    Some of the most hard core supporters, the ones that actually begin cussing when talking about this, that I know are hispanic. Second or third generation legal immigrants to be exact. However this is probably unsurprising since I live in a predominately Hispanic city. The oppsite is probably also true.

  13. #13
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Problem is, there are so many hispanic voters now, that politicians might pussy out instead of doing the right thing and fixing this problem.
    The problem IMHO is that people automatically assume that Hispanics that are citizens and/or here legally are automatically going to knee jerk like Manny and support the illegal aliens no matter what because it is the "progressive" thing to do. There are a lot of conservative Hispanic citizens.

  14. #14
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    I'm on board if we also take steps to grant legal citizenship more easily. The whole process needs an overhaul, and this is only a small piece of what needs to be done.

  15. #15
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    Next step?

    Ins ute LARGE financial penalties for any business that employs illegals. The fine is for each infraction (employee), so the fine stacks.

  16. #16
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    I'm on board if we also take steps to grant legal citizenship more easily. The whole process needs an overhaul, and this is only a small piece of what needs to be done.
    Why must we change that?

    What, do we have to take in every single human who wants to come here and fit them into the USA?

    Is that your view?

  17. #17
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Why must we change that?

    What, do we have to take in every single human who wants to come here and fit them into the USA?

    Is that your view?
    I'm definitely OK with an expanded work visa program as long as there is a baseline tax to play.

  18. #18
    2nd Verse Same as the 1st Oh, Gee!!'s Avatar
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    it's an empty promise to get people to vote republican in november. they'll use it for votes, and drop the idea after the elections. kind of like reagan did when he made implicit promises to bring back school prayer.

  19. #19
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    it's an empty promise to get people to vote republican in november. they'll use it for votes, and drop the idea after the elections. kind of like reagan did when he made implicit promises to bring back school prayer.
    Yeah that too.

  20. #20
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    So expanded work visa program, "fixing" the 14th amendment (through leg. or whatever), big BIG stackable fines for hiring illegal immigrants. Are these things acceptable to most? Regardless of if either party can/will push it through? I would think that if you do the first, you almost HAVE to do the second, right?

  21. #21
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    "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof"

    Might not be necessary to amend the Cons ution. Limit birthright citizenship to American-born children who have at least one parent who is a citizen or a permanent resident.

  22. #22
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    The argument for conferring automatic citizenship on children born to Mexican illegals is surely stronger than the argument for conferring automatic citizenship on children born to South Korean women on a tourist visa. That is a scam, pure and simple.

  23. #23
    Basketball Expertise spurster's Avatar
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    This seems like an excellent way for the GOP to appear racist and lose votes.

    Any implementation of this would be a disaster. For over 200 years, a birth certificate has been sufficient to prove citizenship. If you are a natural-born citizen, probably almost all other evidence that you are a citizen can be traced back to your birth certificate. You pull that away and the whole house of cards will come tumbling down. A large number of current procedures will have to modified and debugged, and our immigration agencies will become even more dysfunctional. You'll have to prove that one of your parents is a citizen, and to do that you'll have to prove that one of that parent's parents is a citizen, etc.

  24. #24
    2nd Verse Same as the 1st Oh, Gee!!'s Avatar
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    "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof"

    Might not be necessary to amend the Cons ution. Limit birthright citizenship to American-born children who have at least one parent who is a citizen or a permanent resident.
    any individual, regardless of citizenship, that is physically present in this country is subject to the jurisdiction of this country.

  25. #25
    Truth, justice, and the NBA
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    "scare white people tactics"

    move along.

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