Just look at what's transpiring in Egypt right now. Most people involved in an uprising haven't a clue as to how it should be done... if I was protesting against the government and it was literally do or die - take a bullet, the first thing I'd do is divide and conquer...how is this done? well the military has families I'm sure if they went home to no families they might just rethink their loyalties to the government. It's just a strategy , Art of War, just saying....
Right now they're just getting picked off like simple ducklings...
Peaceful Protesters who are being attacked gain the sympathy of an ever greater share of the populace eventually leading to an unignorable force. Protesters who go and kidnap/kill families of the police gain the vitriol of an ever greater share of the populace eventually leading to being crushed.
in the US maybe...but see in Muslim lands that's not really bound to happen when you're dealing with Totalitarian regimes...it's do or die it isn't a Democracy and it's not likely the West will intervene...perhaps when thousands start to die the UN may take a look at the situation...
To win you need either the guns or the numbers (here or there) and you are suggesting that the protesters go head to head against those with the guns before they have the numbers. Strategically, this is a horrible plan.
You have a profound grasp of The Way
thx god this will never happend here in San Antonio
Protesters chase police from main Cairo square
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_egypt_protest
The Iranian government effectively crushed its own popular movement after their fraudulent election. (one larger town had more votes for the government candidates than it had people)CAIRO – Thousands of anti-government protesters wielding rocks, glass and sticks chased hundreds of riot police away from the main square in downtown Cairo and several of the policemen stripped off their uniforms and badges and joined the demonstrators.
An Associated Press reporter saw the protesters cheering the police who joined them and hoisting them on their shoulders in one of the many dramatic and chaotic scenes across Egypt on Friday.
After chasing the police, thousands of protesters were able to flood into the huge Tahrir Square downtown after being kept out most of the day by a very heavy police presence. Few police could be seen around the square after the confrontation.
THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.
Now that Tunisia has ousted its leader, I wonder if Iran will see protests again.
The big question is always what will the military do.
Once these things get rolling police tend to be simply outnumbered. The retreat of the police from the main Cairo square is an example of that.
Time to stay glued to the news, heh.
I'm sure there's plenty of revolutionary leaders who would like Koolaid. He would make a great conscript during a real revolution with his readiness to give his life for the cause early in the affair while possessing little weaponry. A little social influence is all the ammo Kool needs. He could realistically be an effective meat shield for the smarter peeps whose intellect is needed to run the country when things are overturned.
Did you read what one of the main causes of the Tunisian uprising was?
Some guy, after being humiliated in public by security forces, marched over to city hall and set himself on fire.
That kinda shocked a lot of people into action.
Never underestimate the power of moral authority. This point was made earlier in the thread, and is as true today as it was when it was successfully used by Ghandi, MLK, Jr, and the Irish to end the Troubles.
Setting yourself on fire sounds more like shock and awe than setting an example as some moral authority. Although I agree "legitimate" moral authorities like religious leaders have massive impacts on any people's revolution.
Suicide bombers also get "shock and awe" with their deaths.
Compare these statements:
I am willing to die in a horrible, painful way, because of my cause, but won't hurt anyone else.I am willing to die in a horrible way, because of my cause, but will also purposefully kill and injure as many people as possible. If anyone innocent gets in the way, I accept that.I am willing to brave water cannons, beatings, and police dogs for my cause, but will not raise a hand against this violence.
Shock and awe yes, but not hurting anybody else in the process creates moral authority.
AJZ has a live feed up.
http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
Interesting dynamic developing between the protesters and the military? Protesters cheering the appearance of tanks.....crewmen emerging from tanks to shake hands.
I think it was inspirational in nature, RG, but a dude setting himself on fire to show how bull the regime is doesn't strike me as much as a moral authority as simply, an example. He said, "I'm willing to die by my own hand than live with the state as governed."
Is it an appeal to moral principles? Perhaps, but the enslaved and oppressed rarely contemplate the moral implications of their uprising, instead focusing on the fact they're getting a few or more certain, inalienable rights trampled upon. That is, indeed, the argument of today's suicide bombing extremists.
I don't know if you have read or heard this, but apparently the army is expected to side with the people. The protesters are even chanting "Army Army, come and save us"
Edit: Maybe I should finish reading the thread before I post LOL
A couple of things spring to mind immediately.
Reminds me of the way the Yeltsin climbed on the top of the tank to give a speech when the Red Army was sent to seize the White House after the USSR fell. Yes Russia has a White House.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House,_Moscow
If you are old enough to remember the fall of the USSR, hardliners attempted a coup to re-impose the old USSR after it was dissolved. The hardliners failed, obviously, because the army wouldn't back them.
It also reminds me of the initial Chinese military response to Tiananmen. The initial army units were units local to the area. They allowed themselves to be flummoxed by very insistant protestors.
After that failed, the Chinese leadership ordered the local units out, then more loyal units from other areas in. Those tank/vehicle crews didn't have any qualms whatsoever about the squishy protestors that tried to stop them.
http://www.cnd.org/June4th/photos/mascr003.gif
I will leave out some of the more graphic pictures available.
Hopefully this ends better than it did for the Chinese students.
wow. something made in the usa.
Awesome pictures. The website lives up to its name. Thank you!
If I were one of those police in the pictures having to face that kind of , I would suddenly develop a case of the flu. that, you couldn't pay me enough for that kind of work.
I am surprised that the "plainclothes" police haven't been targeted in any of these pictures. I would think that the hated "thugs" would not be able to operate, but these kinds of paramilitary jackboots worked in Iran.
Fascinating.
The problem in Egypt is that Mubarak is old and has completely lost control of the situation.
Soon the young new Mubarak will emerge and life will move on.
After Tuthmosis III, Amenothep III will be enthroned.
Democratically, of course.
Agree on both the amazing pictures and your comments.
didnt realize there were so many hot women in egypt
Non-violence is a do ented way of inspiring uprisings. It's pretty effective, actually, Gandhi being one of the more famous examples. Christ was a pretty well-known sacrifice as well.
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