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tl;dr
Sure this has been discussed plenty but my name's Blackjack and I get to do what I want. Neal with it.
With that said, I've got plenty of respect for both of their talents. What I have a hard time convincing myself of is that either of them is a real No. 1 for a championship team.
Dirk's probably both underrated and underrated, depending on what circles or pockets you find yourself in, but my problem with him is this: he's too gifted and talent to have that kind of skillset at the power forward position.
As succinctly as I can put it, he's not a defender or a real noteworthy rebounder but he's an unbelievably good, efficient scorer. Because what he excels at is being a scorer and creating mismatches with his size, the offense begins and ends with him a good amount of the time down the stretch. How many big men have led their team to a le having that much of an offensive burden put on them? Keep in mind, we're talking about big men that don't defend or rebound the ball at any real noteworthy level.
Just doesn't happen. For it to happen a team would have to find just the perfect compliment of players to augment Nowitzki's game, essentially having perimeter players playing "big" so Dirk could play "small" (and that's in reference to skillset not German strudel).
That's why I'd find it easier to go with Gasol at my 4 than Dirk, even though I believe Dirk is clearly the better player. It's just a matter of the type of skill they bring to the position and to the overall team in compliment.
'Melo throws it in reverse to throw his punches - not a No. 1.
But aside from that, he's a physical mismatch/nightmare at the 3 and one of the Top 3 scorers when it comes to doing it with ease. He's a beast when he's on his game.
He's also an underwhelming rebounder, especially considering the physicality and athleticism he displays on a nightly basis, and he's indifferent to defense.
In fairness to 'Melo, he is without a doubt the greatest self-congratulatory player in the history of the NBA. Guy is phenomenal. But with regards to leading a team as its No. 1 to a championship?
Not so much.
When it comes to at ude, professionalism and just the kind of guy I'd feel more comfortable entrusting a max contract to, I'm gonna go Dirk hands-down.
But ... I think it may be easier to build a team with 'Melo doing his thing from the 3 than Dirk at the 4 ... which would mean, in terms of trying to win a championship, I'd probably have to do what I've done for Gasol in past discussions and pick 'Melo over Dirk.
The question is, are either of these two players championship Numero Unos with the right pieces, and are those pieces there to be found for either of them given both their pros and cons?
I'd have to say 'Melo makes a better No. 1 for a team than Dirk. But ... I don't think either of those teams gets led to a championship with those two being asked to play that role.
Therefore, Give me Dirk as a No. 2 and I'll feel pretty damn confident with my team's chances. I think Dirk's got more of what's needed to be a No. 2 than 'Melo has to be a No. 1 (which is seemingly all he can be).
Omnipotently, I cede the floor.
tl;dr
I read and wrote it. Neal with it.
That's gotta be hard to do..
Dirk v 'Melo
Not on this board.
Interesting take. I'd go with Dirk over Melo.
What are we laughing at, mucca?
Just a preference if given the choice or do you think building a champion around Dirk as a No. 1 is doable?
yeah why not? he came within 4 and half quarters to one whilst dragging the THF and Smokey with him.
Alot closer than Melo has taken a team with comparable talent around him, tbh.
True dat. And I've taken it under consideration.
But you've also gotta ask yourself, given all that went right for the Mavs that year in route to the Finals, great fortune against the Spurs and an Amar'e-less Suns team awaiting them in the WCF, if not then ... when?
I don't believe they would have gotten by a healthy Spurs and/or Suns team that year, but no one gives a damn if you win. So it's neither here nor there.
Fact of the matter is, all things being equal, the Heat were probably the fifth best team that year - after the Spurs, Suns, Mavs and Pistons. But they managed to get there so give 'em their props.
But the Mavs cannot lose that series. Cannot. And in the fashion they lost it, at that stage of the game? A championship No. 1 doesn't allow that to happen. No excuses. Great guy, uva talent ... but he had the superior team, his team had their foot on the Heat's collective throat and they came up empty.
Question I have is, if that's 'Melo with that team, does he seal the deal?
Probably, imo. But I don't know that you can ever expect to combine that good fortune with a roster as well-assembled for him to take advantage of the opportunity.
I too have always pondered if Melo could've stopped Wade from getting the line a record amount of times.
oh and
Dirk, for reasons already listed...but Melo would obviously be the choice if we're talking longterm
The Mavs wilted. It's a cop-out to suggest the only reason they lost was a poor whistle.
It's a fact. The same officiating that is blamed for the Mavs Finals defeat is the same officiating that benefited them against the Spurs. There were plenty of people disparaging the refs during that series not wearing or working for the Black and Silver. But it's gets lost in retrospect because of when it happened and the lasting images of the season being the Finals.oh and
The Spurs did come back from down 3-1, though, and nearly pulled off the victory - with a Duncan who couldn't sustain his play into the fourth because of his plantar fasciitis.
But happens. Injuries, blown calls good/bad fortune ... it's part of the game. The Mavs had things break there way that year, as is the case with most teams that make it to the Finals, they just had more than most - no Amar'e in the next round and an inferior Heat team awaiting them in the Finals.
I'm guessing 'Melo takes advantage of the way the game's called better than Dirk at that stage. He probably goes off in one of the 2-3 games needed to close that Heat out. I'm just not sure you can say he'd ever be put into that fortuitous of a situation.
Which is why I have a hard time believing either is a No. 1 for a championship team - the No. 1 go-to scorer.
As if your Spurs injury excuse isn't a cop out.
Saying Melo would've taken the Mavs to a le is just a random reach in the dark, tbqh.
Seriously, I don't think Dirk is a terrible leader at all. I just don't think his skillset at the 4 lends to him being a No. 1 on a championship team.wade shoots a record number of ft's in a finals series for fun while jet and smokey jack off and all of the sudden dirk is a terrible leader
Like I said, it's really like he's too talented for the skillset he possesses. It's a ing no-brainer you want to milk him for all he's worth, he's that ing good offensively, but I've yet to see a player at his position be asked to do what he does for a team (pro and con) and bring home the Larry O'Brien.
Maybe he'll be the first. It's not out of the realm if just the right mix of complimentary skillsets are put along side of him, it just seems highly unlikely from my vantage point.
I don't see how it was Dirk's fault the Mavs wilted in the finals. Even late in that series (Game 5) he hit what would've been the GW shot (w/o Stack that game) had the refs not bailed out Wade at the end.
I agree that the officials are not to blame for that series (although the end of game 5 was pretty sketch), but neither is Dirk. He played like a #1 in the Finals
If you know something to be true, you see it with your own eyes and are asked to give an opinion or assessment on what happened, you give it, right?
I know the mother ing Spurs. I don't sit here and debate what could have been, what should have been or what might have been. happens - I never thought I'd see one le much less four.
The Spurs should have won that series, imo. No doubt in my mind. Even with the injuries, questionable officiating and terrible personnel decisions by Pop (before Avery going small against the Warriors Pop showed him how it was done against the Mavs), the Spurs should have still been able to close the deal. They almost did - no one gives a .
As for 'Melo, that's not what I was getting at. What I was doing was using a situation and cir stance to show where I think you can differentiate between them. Put 'Melo in that 3-1 position and I'm guessing he takes advantage of the officiating with his quickness size and physicality going to the rim the way Wade did. I'm pretty sure he reacts better to the adversity as an offensive player given an equally well-constructed team.
It's a hypothetical for debate. That's all.
Dirk is a great player. Easily a top 10 player, but a #1? Hard to say, but how many true #1 type players are out there right now? Kobe? Lebron? Howard? Imo, the Mavs biggest problems over the years, has been finding a reliable #2 option to par with Dirk. Early in Dirk's career, I thought Cuban was a idiot for constantly blowing up mav teams he assembled, but for the past few years, Dallas has kept the core together and I actually thought, before Butler got injured, that the this current group of Mavs was the most talented team in the Dirk era. I'd still take Dirk over Melo, because I've never seen Dirk quit, while Melo has at times.
I get how most Mav fans are with Dirk. I get it because he and Dave have both been unfairly labeled as being soft or chokers in their respective careers - they also both happen to be great guys beloved by their fan bases.
I'm not comparing them as players or in their greatness, but in their roles as being the No. 1 on a championship team. Fact of the matter is, and this ain't all that easy to say or write (but I believe it to be true), neither are No. 1 go-to guys for a champion. They both needed or need to have another go-to scorer on the post or on the perimeter that can get into the paint. Both Dave and Dirk's offense relied too much on the jumper and/or free throw line (teams could zone up Dave to take away his driving lanes in the playoffs to force him into the jumper more than one would like).
It's not like neither of them weren't really close to being No. 1 go-to guys, it's that they were so close without being it that it cast them in roles they just weren't suited to play. Thus the unfair criticism - and protective fan bases that come out of the woodworks to defend their honor and champion each of their causes . . .
I agree Dirk would make a heck of second banana... very much like Kobe did under Shaq. The kind of guy that can bring instant offense when your top guy is being quadruple-teamed and can get your team over the top.
I'm not sold Melo would though. I mean, he could score out of his mind, but I think Dirk has a better concept of the team game overall. I see Dirk being the smarter basketball player and making better decisions. And that's the kind of mindset you need to win it all, IMO. You don't force anything, you make the other team make decisions and make them pay for the decisions they make. I think Dirk is better suited for that kind of role, even if his career is starting to decline.
Are we debating whether or not Dirk is a #1, your core guy on which everything else is built upon? 10+ 50 win seasons says he's a pretty damn good centerpiece, taking into account all the guys that have come and gone in that span of time. As long as he remains a difficult guy to defend and one that other teams have to gameplan around, he'll be considered as a #1-type.
According to ESPN, the two worst playoff performers by winning percentage in the NBA:
1. Eduardo Najera
2. Carmelo Anthony
Dirk has had a thousand different lineups, and several coaches, yet his team is always relevant. That speaks volumes for his value.
bull ing
no one aside from spurfans complained one bit about officiating during or after the series between the spurs and mavs. it was a poorly officiated series, but for both teams. Timmy and the Spurs got just as many phantom fouls as Dirk and the Mavs got. You can talk about when Dirk stepped on Timmy's foot and barely got touched, resulting in an and-1, then I can site Dirk having a wide-open offensive putback to win a game, that he was unable to do because Parker yanked his jersey and pulled him off balance.
however its quite common for people who are not mavs fans to consider the 2006 Finals to be the most controversial finals in NBA history, as well as other players in the NBA talked about how awful the officiating was in the Finals, including T-Mac who was playing for the Rockets (a Mavs rival) at the time, and had absolutely no reason to be backing the Mavs just for the sake of it. dont forget about Tim Donaghy talking about it being rigged in his book as well.
now the Mavs most definitely could have won the series despite the controversy going on, but it wasnt entirely Dirk's fault that they lost the series. I'd say a much bigger chunk was on the heads of guys like Jason Terry and Josh Howard being ing dumbasses and suddenly forgetting how to hit a wide open 10 foot jumpshot. Dirk consistently went to work on the Heat throughout the series, whether by torching them constantly with difficult shots, or by setting his team up with open looks. Don't forget the amazing fade-away he hit in game 5 that SHOULD have sealed the game, until Wade went sprinting out of control, having no control of the ball nor his body, pretty much punched Dirk in the stomach and somehow got a foul called on Dirk.
It would depend on how you define a #1. If its a guy who can lead a team to a le, then there are only two true #1s in the NBA right now, Kobe and Wade. I'd say that's an unfair way to define a #1.
Dirk by a mile
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