Time to choose: clean water or natural gas

[RandomGuy]

You can't have both.



http://www.forbes.com/2009/09/28/cab...-fracking.html

So what's in this stuff? Hydrochloric acid, solvents, surfactants, petroleum-based lubricants, corrosion inhibitors, microbe killers. Basically, it's a lot of the same carcinogenic chemicals found in household cleaners like Formula 409 and Drano.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=104565793
"

Fracking," as the industry calls it, involves injecting a million gallons or more of water and chemicals deep underground to pry out gas that's locked away in tight spaces.

Environmentalists want the federal government to regulate the practice because, in some cases, fracking may be harming nearby water wells. The industry says regulation should be left up to the states.

Hydraulic fracturing allows drillers to dramatically increase production. The chemicals pumped underground with the water help drillers bore through the hard rock. The pressure used is tremendous — about 300 times a typical garden hose. That creates small cracks in the rock that allow gas to escape.

Forbes of coures hopes the industry will "reform itself".

That would certainly be the magical free-market solution that wouldn't require regulation.

Odds anyone?

Looks like this, and other rather nasty extractive technologies, are going to force us to choose between temporary hydrocarbon energy, and permant destruction of clean water sources.

Which is more important to you?

[boutons_deux]

right-wing oil/gas/coal corporate shills and dupes:

"There is no proof, EVER, that fracking or any carbon-extraction technology has ever poisoned water, air, or soil"

[admiralsnackbar]

I'm a big fan of capitalism, but it does tell you how ed-up capitalist zealotry has gotten when financial gain can trump self-preservation.

[coyotes_geek]

Dumb thread. Might as well be one started by yoni, wc or jack asking whether or not you want to have democracy or health care reform, because you can't have both.

So what's in this stuff? Hydrochloric acid, solvents, surfactants, petroleum-based lubricants, corrosion inhibitors, microbe killers. Basically, it's a lot of the same carcinogenic chemicals found in household cleaners like Formula 409 and Drano.

Otherwise known as stuff you're already voluntarily exposing yourself to, because it's in household cleaners like 409 and drano.

[DarrinS]

I know the EPA has recently declared that CO2 is a pollutant (you know that stuff we all exhale and plants need?). If they declared CO2 a pollutant, it's only a matter of time before an endangerment finding is declared on water.

[NFGIII]

Clean water and many of the restrictons on nuclear power reduced or elliminated. Hydrogen is the most abundant and cleanest source of energy know at this time. This energy source needs to be focused on, regardles of what happened at Three MIle Island and Chernoybol was an aberration based on the Soviet system. We shut 3MI down before anything went "bang" so to say and the French have had nuclear power for decades without any significant incident. Not saying that we need not regulate at all but we need to push this niche hard and get it working. It solves a mul ude of problems - no pollution or greenhouse gasses, over time it will be much cheaper than any source we presently use and its EVERYEHERE and its FREE.

[admiralsnackbar]

Dumb thread. Might as well be one started by yoni, wc or jack asking whether or not you want to have democracy or health care reform, because you can't have both.




Otherwise known as stuff you're already voluntarily exposing yourself to, because it's in household cleaners like 409 and drano.

I agree the either/or is a bit extreme, but by the same token, nobody drinks, cooks, and bathes with 409 and drano, right? That's a little extreme, too.

[coyotes_geek]

I agree the either/or is a bit extreme, but by the same token, nobody drinks, cooks, and bathes with 409 and drano, right? That's a little extreme, too.

Sure you do. There's hundreds of ways you can come in contact with, ingest or inhale something like 409, draino, or any of the other thousands of potential cancer causing agents we all come in contact with every day.

[admiralsnackbar]

Sure you do. There's hundreds of ways you can come in contact with, ingest or inhale something like 409, draino, or any of the other thousands of potential cancer causing agents we all come in contact with every day.

I don't really disagree with you, although I still have a choice in the matter with many of your examples (I can buy organic, use green cleaning products, etc), whereas I have no choice but to drink my water short of installing a purification system or buying purified water in glass bottles.

Just for s: what extent do you think clean water is covered by "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?" Or "promote the general Welfare," if you prefer cons utional language? I recognize oil has it's place in both these phrases, but water must ultimately be a higher priority, mustn't it?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Sure you do. There's hundreds of ways you can come in contact with, ingest or inhale something like 409, draino, or any of the other thousands of potential cancer causing agents we all come in contact with every day.

really? like how?

[coyotes_geek]

I don't really disagree with you, although I still have a choice in the matter with many of your examples (I can buy organic, use green cleaning products, etc), whereas I have no choice but to drink my water short of installing a purification system or buying purified water in glass bottles.

Just for s: what extent do you think clean water is covered by "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?" Or "promote the general Welfare," if you prefer cons utional language? I recognize oil has it's place in both these phrases, but water must ultimately be a higher priority, mustn't it?

Water is the higher priority. Water is the most heavily regulated and controlled resource there is. Before it comes out of your tap it had to pass through a treatment plant & distribution network that has all kinds of codes, tests and standards. After you're done using that water and have disposed of it there's another network and treatment plant covered by more and more codes, tests and standards. In this country a drop of water is covered by one regulation or another from the time it hits the ground as rain to the time it ends up in the ocean. Literally.

[coyotes_geek]

really? like how?

Breathing for starters.

[boutons_deux]

agreed, the corps have created 100K chemicals (aka products) and only a handful have been tested for toxicity.

The corps are ing us and the environment up, and no one's accountable.

[RandomGuy]

Dumb thread. Might as well be one started by yoni, wc or jack asking whether or not you want to have democracy or health care reform, because you can't have both.


Otherwise known as stuff you're already voluntarily exposing yourself to, because it's in household cleaners like 409 and drano.

1) I don't think it is a false dilemma. I generally don't do logical fallacies.
The problem is that the more widespread the practice, the more likely it will be to really contaminate water supplies. The real problem is that this is not the kind of contamination that can be cleaned up once it s up the water table.

2) Last I checked, I don't have to "voluntarily" drink Formula 409 or drano, much less shower in it.

I might voluntarily hold a lead bullet in my hand, but that doesn't mean I want my pipes made out of the stuff.

You are right that it is not an absolute trade-off. Please forgive my rhetorical flourish.

The question we must still answer is how much of our water supply will we allow to be contaminated for how much gas?

We MUST decide which carries greater weight when thinking about public policy on the matter.

[DarrinS]

RandomGuy,


I don't want you to have night terrors, but thermoelectric power plants use a load more water than natural gas extraction ever would and get this -- thermoelectric power plants pump tons of water vapor into the atmosphere (gasp)!

[admiralsnackbar]

RandomGuy,


I don't want you to have night terrors, but thermoelectric power plants use a load more water than natural gas extraction ever would and get this -- thermoelectric power plants pump tons of water vapor into the atmosphere (gasp)!

But do they contaminate the water as badly? Or are you arguing that electrical plants would be a vector for contaminated water to become air-borne? I guess I wasn't clear which you intended.

[RandomGuy]

RandomGuy,


I don't want you to have night terrors, but thermoelectric power plants use a load more water than natural gas extraction ever would and get this -- thermoelectric power plants pump tons of water vapor into the atmosphere (gasp)!

um, what?

More reading comprehension fail.

S'okay, I won't bust your balls too much about your continuing (gasp!) complete failure to actually read the linked articles before making what amounts to a non-sequitur.

I mean, pink ponies? Really? That's what you are going with?

[RandomGuy]

Fracking isn't about using water in the extraction process, it is about accidental contamination of underground water supplies.

Just read the articles linked, or better yet, do a google about it and find some other data.

Your point about the amount of water used was not really relevant at all.

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol environmentalists

[jacobdrj]

Hydrogen is the most abundant and cleanest source of energy know at this time. This energy source needs to be focused on, regardles of what happened at Three MIle Island and Chernoybol was an aberration based on the Soviet system.

Hydrogen, as a source of energy, in what form?
Do you mean hydrogen alpha decay radiation from Highly Enriched Uranium?

Hydrogen in 'fuel cell' form is not a source of energy, but a vector, and is far from abundant in a usable state...

[Blake]

Environmentalists want the federal government to regulate the practice because, in some cases, fracking may be harming nearby water wells. The industry says regulation should be left up to the states.

The word "may" is used here.

Is it or isn't it harming nearby water wells?

If so, is it possible to close off those wells?

[EmptyMan]

Whichever one pisses off the eco-fascists more.

[balli]

Clean water is just a socommunifascist scheme. God will protect us if we deserve it. Keep polluting.

[EmptyMan]

Balli, you'd like less drinkable water right brah?


Gotta knock dem dere numbers down to lighten the load for ol' Mother Earth.

[balli]

Balli, you'd like less drinkable water right brah?


Gotta knock dem dere numbers down to lighten the load for ol' Mother Earth.

Seriously. Good point.