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  1. #1
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Hasegawa - who was born in Japan and has taught in the United States since 1990, and who reads English, Japanese, and Russian - rejects both the traditional and revisionist positions. According to his close examination of the evidence, Japan was not poised to surrender before Hiroshima, as the revisionists argued, nor was it ready to give in immediately after the atomic bomb, as traditionalists have always seen it. Instead, it took the Soviet declaration of war on Japan, several days after Hiroshima, to bring the capitulation.



    Both the American and Japanese public have clung to the idea that the mushroom clouds ended the war. For the Japanese, Hiroshima is a potent symbol of their nation as victim, helping obscure their role as the aggressors and in atrocities that include mass rapes and beheading prisoners of war. For the Americans, Hiroshima has always been a means justified by the end.



    “This seems to touch a nerve,” observes Hasegawa.



    That may help explain why Hasegawa’s thesis, which he first detailed in an award-winning 2005 book and has continued to bolster with new material, is still little known outside of academic circles, says Ward Wilson, a nuclear weapons scholar who has drawn on Hasegawa’s insights in his own recent work. Measured against the decades of serious and settled thinking about World War II, Hasegawa’s scholarship feels radical. But another reason, Wilson argues, is that to look at history in this new light is to entertain what seem like shocking ideas. That the destruction of cities does not sway leaders. That what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not overly remarkable. And, strangest of all: That nuclear explosives may not be particularly effective weapons of war.



    The Pacific War began in 1941 with the violent humiliation at Pearl Harbor. Japan already held parts of China, and quickly invaded New Guinea, the Dutch East Indies, Burma, and Singapore. Manila fell. The country enjoyed air supremacy across most of Southeast Asia; in February 1942, it even attacked Australia. Japan’s control was tightening, and it appeared unstoppable.



    After the epic Battle of Midway in the summer of 1942, however, the United States and its allies gained the momentum. Still, progress was slow as Marines hopped from atoll to island to atoll: wading through bloody coral shallows under a rain of s ing, engaging an enemy that was dug in, highly trained, and willing to fight to the death. The names of these tropical s - Gaudalcanal, Iwo Jima, Okinawa - have become Marine Corps legend. The casualties were heavy.



    By the summer of 1945, the Americans had cornered Japan and assembled a final invasion plan, codenamed Operation Downfall. The first stage was scheduled for the fall, and would have opened with the landing of more than 700,000 troops on Kyushu, the southernmost of the big four islands. It would have been a larger operation than D-Day, certain to result in a bloody slaughter.



    Americans, then and today, have tended to assume that Japan’s leaders were simply blinded by their own fanaticism, forcing a catastrophic showdown for no reason other than their refusal to acknowledge defeat. This was, after all, a nation that trained its young men to fly their planes, freighted with explosives, into the side of American naval vessels.




    But Hasegawa and other historians have shown that Japan’s leaders were in fact quite savvy, well aware of their difficult position, and holding out for strategic reasons. Their concern was not so much whether to end the conflict, but how to end it while holding onto territory, avoiding war crimes trials, and preserving the imperial system. The Japanese could still inflict heavy casualties on any invader, and they hoped to convince the Soviet Union, still neutral in the Asian theater, to mediate a settlement with the Americans. Stalin, they calculated, might negotiate more favorable terms in exchange for territory in Asia. It was a long shot, but it made strategic sense.



    On Aug. 6, the American bomber Enola Gay dropped its payload on Hiroshima, leaving the signature mushroom cloud and devastation on the ground, including something on the order of 100,000 killed. (The figures remain disputed, and depend on how the fatalities are counted.)

    As Hasegawa writes in his book “Racing the Enemy,” the Japanese leadership reacted with concern, but not panic. On Aug. 7, Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo sent an urgent coded telegram to his ambassador in Moscow, asking him to press for a response to the Japanese request for mediation, which the Soviets had yet to provide. The bombing added a “sense of urgency,” Hasegawa says, but the plan remained the same.



    Very late the next night, however, something happened that did change the plan. The Soviet Union declared war and launched a broad surprise attack on Japanese forces in Manchuria. In that instant, Japan’s strategy was ruined. Stalin would not be extracting concessions from the Americans. And the approaching Red Army brought new concerns: The military position was more dire, and it was hard to imagine occupying communists allowing Japan’s traditional imperial system to continue. Better to surrender to Washington than to Moscow.



    By the morning of Aug. 9, the Japanese Supreme War Council was meeting to discuss the terms of surrender. (During the meeting, the second atomic bomb killed tens of thousands at Nagasaki.) On Aug. 15, the Japanese surrendered unconditionally.



    How is it possible that the Japanese leadership did not react more strongly to many tens of thousands of its citizens being obliterated?

    One answer is that the Japanese leaders were not greatly troubled by civilian causalities. As the Allies loomed, the Japanese people were instructed to sharpen bamboo sticks and prepare to meet the Marines at the beach.



    Yet it was more than callousness. The bomb - horrific as it was - was not as special as Americans have always imagined. In early March, several hundred B-29 Super Fortress bombers dropped incendiary bombs on downtown Tokyo. Some argue that more died in the resulting firestorm than at Hiroshima. People were boiled in the canals. The photos of charred Tokyo and charred Hiroshima are indistinguishable.




    In fact, more than 60 of Japan’s cities had been substantially destroyed by the time of the Hiroshima attack, according to a 2007 International Security article by Wilson, who is a senior fellow at the Center for Nonproliferation Studies at the Monterey Ins ute of International Studies. In the three weeks before Hiroshima, Wilson writes, 25 cities were heavily bombed.

    To us, then, Hiroshima was unique, and the move to atomic weaponry was a great leap, military and moral. But Hasegawa argues the change was incremental. “Once we had accepted strategic bombing as an acceptable weapon of war, the atomic bomb was a very small step,” he says. To Japan’s leaders, Hiroshima was yet another population center leveled, albeit in a novel way. If they didn’t surrender after Tokyo, they weren’t going to after Hiroshima.
    http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/id...der/?page=full

  2. #2
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    another proof why russians are just a load of assholes and are a shame to all christianity adherents, the war in europe was ended like several months before them declaring war on japan. had the commies declared war a bit earlier, they would've been no need to drop the atom bombs which claimed millions of innocent lives

    at the start of the war Germans launched the blitz against poland and captured the entire country in about a month of time, while the russians watched all these happening w/o doing a damn thing, sticking to the so-called appeasement policy until getting their own asses burned by German fire

  3. #3
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    mebbe so. I'm no historian like yourself.

  4. #4
    Slovenian Master Slomo's Avatar
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    another proof why russians are just a load of assholes and are a shame to all christianity adherents, the war in europe was ended like several months before them declaring war on japan. had the commies declared war a bit earlier, they would've been no need to drop the atom bombs which claimed millions of innocent lives

    at the start of the war Germans launched the blitz against poland and captured the entire country in about a month of time, while the russians watched all these happening w/o doing a damn thing, sticking to the so-called appeasement policy until getting their own asses burned by German fire
    Wrong. The Russian had actually signed a pact with the Nazis, that's why they did nothing. Under that pact they were en led to a piece of Poland and if memory serves they got it. The Nazis broke that pact when they attacked Russia.

    As for the Russians declaring the war on Japan, they had that obligation and hesitated because they were pretty much exhausted (most casualties of any of the allies). Which also means that it's questionable if they would have ever opened a real front against Japan. No excuse, just putting it into perspective.

  5. #5
    All Hail the Legatron The Reckoning's Avatar
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    Wrong. The Russian had actually signed a pact with the Nazis, that's why they did nothing. Under that pact they were en led to a piece of Poland and if memory serves they got it. The Nazis broke that pact when they attacked Russia.

    As for the Russians declaring the war on Japan, they had that obligation and hesitated because they were pretty much exhausted (most casualties of any of the allies). Which also means that it's questionable if they would have ever opened a real front against Japan. No excuse, just putting it into perspective.


    to be fair, the russians were keen on grabbing as much territory from the japanese as possible.

    my "uncle" was there when the US and russian armies met up, and he said they were very close to s ing each other because of the madhouse land grab at the end of the war.

    i doubt the russians would ever invade the japanese homeland, but manchuria/korea was fair game.

  6. #6
    Pump Bacon Cane's Avatar
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    Tbh thought it was readily accepted that it took the crazy Japs two nukes, firebombings, and a Russian invasion before surrendering. Mmm fried rice

  7. #7
    Slovenian Master Slomo's Avatar
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    to be fair, the russians were keen on grabbing as much territory from the japanese as possible.

    my "uncle" was there when the US and russian armies met up, and he said they were very close to s ing each other because of the madhouse land grab at the end of the war.

    i doubt the russians would ever invade the japanese homeland, but manchuria/korea was fair game.
    Absolutely, but I see it as quite opportunistic in nature, not really the full fledged front the US wanted/needed. The situation was quite similar in Europe and the meeting of the US and Russian armies was very tense.

  8. #8
    above average height mavs>spurs's Avatar
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    We should all just be thankful that the Germans broke that pact and attacked the Russians, then made the mistake of bogging themselves down in the Russian tundra in the middle of winter. And the fact that the Japs attacked pearl harbor...had Hitler played his cards right and tackled everyone one by one, he probably would have conquered most of the world.

  9. #9
    selbstverständlich Agloco's Avatar
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    So we can thank the Russians for not having to unload another nuclear payload over Japan?

  10. #10
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    What is the point of this history lesson?

  11. #11
    "We'll do it this time" Bartleby's Avatar
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    What is the point of any history lesson?

  12. #12
    Hey Bruce... Lebron is the Rock Sec24Row7's Avatar
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    The Russians declared war on Japan just so they could have a seat at the negotiating table and get territory...

    Japan didn't surrender because of them... lol

    That's stupid.

  13. #13
    Believe.
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    @mavs
    Yup, it sounds cruel, but bombing Pearl Harbor is probably the best thing Japan ever did. For them, for USA and for the world.

  14. #14
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    The Russians declared war on Japan just so they could have a seat at the negotiating table and get territory...

    Japan didn't surrender because of them... lol

    That's stupid.
    no .

  15. #15
    The Wemby Assembly z0sa's Avatar
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    We should all just be thankful that the Germans broke that pact and attacked the Russians, then made the mistake of bogging themselves down in the Russian tundra in the middle of winter. And the fact that the Japs attacked pearl harbor...had Hitler played his cards right and tackled everyone one by one, he probably would have conquered most of the world.
    Hitler planned war from a very early time, before he even had consolidated power. He actually intended to start it in 1944-45 IIRC, which would have given his scientists/engineers/populace more time to build many more better, larger planes and heavier tanks, but basically felt he was getting older and well, being the insane he was thought he could go any day and wanted his name down in the history books already. I read this in a book a long time ago so I don't have a source but I can vouch for it

  16. #16
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    I lived for a while in China and I picked up on their japan hate after learning of their war crimes. Still, when I visited japan, and went to hiroshima, it really got to me. What is terrible about the nuke vs carpeting incendiary bombs which are probably more lethal as an attack is that the nuke keeps killing long after the initial attack. civilians didnt know what was going on because they were occupied and they even go so far as to accuse the US "medical aid" to be a science experiment and not treatment (I never verified that, just recounting the museum exhibit).

    they had a model of the epicenter, before and after; the bomb was supposed to take out a bridge. It was slightly off target and hit almost exactly on the city prefecture, wiping out 99% of the buildings in the area... but the bridge didnt go down.

    as for the need to use it... japan was ed at that point, they were sealed off and traditional bombs could have been used to pressure them. for all the US knew they could have created a mutant zombie outbreak, it was pretty ing irresponsible if you ask me. of course, a deterrent was created, but that's another topic...

  17. #17
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Japan didn't surrender, they just planned ahead, tbh... after pretending to 'surrender' they started building Toyota trucks and Sony walkmans and took over the US market... never underestimate those japs, IMO.

  18. #18
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    @mavs
    Yup, it sounds cruel, but bombing Pearl Harbor is probably the best thing Japan ever did. For them, for USA and for the world.
    The US was going to get In WW2 with or without the Japanese attack.

  19. #19
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    @mavs
    Yup, it sounds cruel, but bombing Pearl Harbor is probably the best thing Japan ever did. For them, for USA and for the world.
    I lived for a while in China and I picked up on their japan hate after learning of their war crimes. Still, when I visited japan, and went to hiroshima, it really got to me. What is terrible about the nuke vs carpeting incendiary bombs which are probably more lethal as an attack is that the nuke keeps killing long after the initial attack. civilians didnt know what was going on because they were occupied and they even go so far as to accuse the US "medical aid" to be a science experiment and not treatment (I never verified that, just recounting the museum exhibit).

    they had a model of the epicenter, before and after; the bomb was supposed to take out a bridge. It was slightly off target and hit almost exactly on the city prefecture, wiping out 99% of the buildings in the area... but the bridge didnt go down.

    as for the need to use it... japan was ed at that point, they were sealed off and traditional bombs could have been used to pressure them. for all the US knew they could have created a mutant zombie outbreak, it was pretty ing irresponsible if you ask me. of course, a deterrent was created, but that's another topic...
    I think that the US use of the bomb is effectively terrorism but all bets are off - IMO - when you bomb a country by surprise and start a war. I don't really have a problem with the bomb's use although I do think its possible the war could have been ended without its use or without an invasion. I do think that its use may have had a part in the act that the US and USSR never blew the world to .

    I also don't think there was any danger or irresponsibility in its use. US scientists were pretty damn sure there wasn't going to be "mutant zombie" outbreak. WTF?

  20. #20
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I think this useless revised history are the pacifists trying to tell us that we didn't need to use "the bomb." I have very, very little doubt, that "the bomb" made the difference, and ended the war.

  21. #21
    Believe. mercos's Avatar
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    I too, believe the bomb was necessary. Regardless of what the Japanese were doing behind closed doors, the Truman administration had no way of knowing what they were planning. The fighting up until that point had been long and bloody, and the choice presented to Truman was either use the bomb, or send in more troops to die.

  22. #22
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    Wrong. The Russian had actually signed a pact with the Nazis, that's why they did nothing. Under that pact they were en led to a piece of Poland and if memory serves they got it. The Nazis broke that pact when they attacked Russia.

    As for the Russians declaring the war on Japan, they had that obligation and hesitated because they were pretty much exhausted (most casualties of any of the allies). Which also means that it's questionable if they would have ever opened a real front against Japan. No excuse, just putting it into perspective.
    The Soviets not only didn't give a crap about Poland; they were carrying on their own extermination of any vestige of Polish leadership/intelligence. They summarily executed Pole after Pole (march 'em into a room; couple shots to the back of the head). Some 15,000 +/-. Only admitted to it after the Soviet fall.

  23. #23
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I think this useless revised history are the pacifists trying to tell us that we didn't need to use "the bomb."
    I didn't get that. Is there some particular passage in the text that indicates that for you?

  24. #24
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    What is the point of any history lesson?
    Dunno. Maybe that history can be more complicated than we give it credit for?

    The argument is probably overdrawn. Was startling and counterintuitive to me and so, interesting on that count. Subtlety is seldom newsworthy, still less Sunday morning armchair historian newsworthy.

  25. #25
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    We should all just be thankful that the Germans broke that pact and attacked the Russians, then made the mistake of bogging themselves down in the Russian tundra in the middle of winter. And the fact that the Japs attacked pearl harbor...had Hitler played his cards right and tackled everyone one by one, he probably would have conquered most of the world.
    you believe the world is much better than it would've otherwise been had hitler ruled most of it? you get negative to moderate answers from all the world's population except maybe the very minority of yids and commies imho.

    japs attacking pearl harbor was a strategic mistake imho and it turned the whole momentum around. they convinced the US people to accept the proposal of getting their country into the damn war, which the US politicians could've never done by themselves

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