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I see what you did there.
To start off, let's list the Top 10 players of all-time (Note: I'm only going to list players post-merger in this case, since players like Russell, Wilt, and Oscar are just about impossible to compare to modern players).
I think most of us can agree that Michael Jordan, Kareem, and Magic are pretty much set in stone as the top 3 post-merger players. This is the "sacred tier" so to speak, because there's really no player right now you can justify adding to this tier at the 4th spot. Some might suggest Bird, but his lack of longevity and somewhat inconsistent playoff stats (compared to other top ten greats) I think prevents him from inclusion. Duncan, Hakeem, and Shaq, like Bird, are also right at the edge of entering the sacred tier.
I'm labeling the next tier, which features Bird, Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan in any order you see fit the "Hallowed tier." Kobe is borderline, but I think his inability to win an MVP and Finals MVP in the same year and the fact his playoff stats and Finals performances are statistically inferior to the aforementioned 4 players keeps him out of the Hallowed tier.
That leaves us with 3 players for the next tier, which I'm going to name the "Legend tier." Kobe is a foregone conclusion to be here. But after him, it gets rather sketchy. Moses Malone? Julius Erving? Isiah Thomas? Lebron? Considering there's a variety of players who can place in the Legend tier, I'm going to extend it beyond 3 players and include Malone, Erving, Thomas, Dirk, and Lebron alongside Kobe. However, Kobe is unquestionably the top dog of this tier.
So:
Sacred Tier
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
Hallowed Tier
4. Larry Bird
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaq
7. Hakeem
(the above tier is pretty much a wash, so order is essentially meaningless)
Legend Tier
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Moses Malone
10. Lebron James
11. Isiah Thomas
12. Julius Erving
13. Dirk
(order is a wash after Kobe)
Now that we have that out of the way, how do think these Finals will affect the legacies of Lebron and Duncan?
If the Spurs win the le and Duncan captures his 4th Finals MVP at 37, there's no question he enters the Sacred tier. But say if Duncan averages a solid 20 and 12 but Parker wins the Finals MVP, would that be enough to vault him into the Sacred tier? Or would he simply become the top player of the Hallowed tier? Or what if he crushes it in the Finals, averaging something like 25 and 13, but his team loses. What happens then? On that note, I don't think anything Duncan does or doesn't do would affect his legacy for the negative. With 4 championships and 3 Finals MVPs, his legacy is pretty much secure and can only become greater.
Lebron's legacy, however, doesn't have that security. 4 regular season MVPs or not, if he doesn't win at least another championship and Finals MVP, his legacy could take a hit and plunge him right out of the Legend tier. I don't think that's necessarily fair, but this is how it's always worked. Personally, I wouldn't remove Lebron from the Legend tier unless he's somehow primarily responsible for never winning another championship, like repeating his 2011 Finals performance in this Finals or future key playoff series/Finals for the rest of his career.
But what happens if he repeats with a Finals MVP? The media will probably consider him the 4th best ever behind Magic, but I'm not sure it would be deserving.
I think he enters the Hallowed tier. I just can't justify putting a player with two lead dog championships alongside Jordan, Magic, and Kareem. But if he wins another lead dog le, I do think he belongs in the Sacred tier.
As for Tony Parker, he's probably a borderline top 50 great right how. Even if Duncan wins the Finals MVP, this would be a "lead dog" le for Parker, his first. And a Finals MVP win would be his first "real" Finals MVP, since the real MVP Finals in '07 was the Western Conference Semifinals, and Duncan was the best player in that series.
So what does a le win/Finals MVP do for Parker's legacy? Does he break the top 25 players of all-time? Top 30? What if he chokes? Does his legacy take a hit? Or does the very fact he led the Spurs to the Finals boost his legacy regardless?
Last edited by midnightpulp; 06-08-2013 at 10:31 PM.
I see what you did there.
Not, bro. This is a sincere thread. No trolling.
Kobe fans will probably be butthurt I didn't place him in the 2nd tier, but it's my honest belief he is slightly, slightly inferior to the players in the 2nd tier.
Not, bro. This is a sincere thread. No trolling.
Kobe fans will probably be butthurt I didn't place him in the 2nd tier, but it's my honest belief he is slightly, slightly inferior to the players in the 2nd tier.
If Parker leads the way, will he be the first player since Isiah to dispel the PGs can't win championships theory? Or will the complimentary piece of Duncan negate his impact historically.
I'd put dirk in the legend tier any day. to me, there ain't any significant distance between dirk and bird, and if bird is in the hallowed tier, dirk should be up there in the right next tier at least
Parker isn't far and away the best player on the team, and with Thomas, Dumars won the Finals MVP the following year so obviously Zeke wasn't far and away the best player on the team. The Spurs are not a PG driven team, they move the ball around and if you were counting points on other stats as well, TD would have taken the MVP on that 1st game with his boards and points combined, just one below Parker even though Tony had that last second shot.
Duncan is a top five of all time player. Jordan and Kareem have 6 rings and Magic 5, but 4 championships and based how the Spurs have been the model franchise for all pro sports in the 1997-2013 time period puts Duncan in the same group as them. Duncan just made the All-NBA First Team at 37 years of age and his 16th year in the league.
LeBron is nowhere near a Top 50 of all time player. Manu and Parker make that list before LeBron does. Kawhi Leonard makes that list before LeBron does.
Who would you choose between Terry mings and Lebron, brah?
Parker would be the only player to win 2 finals mvps & not win a mvp award
You started off ok then kinda got stupid near the end.
Dirk > Julius Erving.
This is craziest thing I heard on ST since yesterday.
Yeah, Dirk deserves to be in the legend tier.
How does your list not include Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain OR EVEN BILL RUSSELL?
hahaha GTFO
Last edited by jdiggy0424; 06-09-2013 at 08:13 AM.
Love ya OP, but deez imaginary tiers is beginning to remind of Marbury's levels..
I can't consider Lebron a Top 10 at this point. I understand he's been a regular season Warrior with 4 MVP's but he has never impressed me much overall in the playoffs. With the exception of last season, Lebron has not performed better in the majority of his career in the playoffs, something unbecoming for the best player in the league. Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Magic, Olajuwon, Bird and heck even Kobe have all performed better in the playoffs if you look at the landscape of their respective careers.
Duncan should be a Top 6 player if we're to include Russell and Wilt in the list if he wins another le this year, winning a FMVP would seal that.
Parker will be a HOF'er obviously but it would be interesting where he falls among the GOAT PG's of all time.
You have Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Nash, Frazier, Cousy, Isiah, Gary Payton, Kidd. That's 9.
Iverson, Alvin Robertson, Mark Jackson, Mo Cheeks, Mookie, Mark Price, Archibald (maybe even Kevin Johnson) all have solid cases to be next in line.
Then you have another list that were amazing and better than Parker during their heyday who didn't share the same luck as Parker who grew under a great franchise and suffered career ending injuries. Baron Davis, Penny Hardaway, Tim Hardaway.
Plus a growing list of a great PG's that will or may eclipse TP (CP3, Rondo, Deron Westbrook).
Its interesting where TP's career falls. Right now, I'd say he's Top 16.
I don't think Lebron is in the Legend Tier RIGHT NOW.
I think you and mostly everybody would put him there because we assume he will continue playing and being the amazing all around player he is.
BUT, having said that, he is not there now.
Kobe has to be higher than Lebron. Like I said, Lebron is a better player than Kobe (I do think that) but his entire career is not near to Kobe's.
isiah has 2 rings, yet his not even top 20
and u have parker top16?
Isiah is on my Top 10 (see my list), if he's not on someone else's Top 20 that's their opinion. unless you misinterpreted what I said. The #16 spot I have for Parker is for the greatest point guards of all time, not players of All time.
i think he meant top 16 among PGs
edit: beaten to it
If Parker gets a Finals MVP he'd be the only PG in NBA history besides Magic to have multiple Finals MVP's
If the Spurs win, Tim cements his place as Top 5 All Time & Tony has a strong case for Top 2 PG of All Time behind AIDS.
Bron's legacy takes a huge hit with another Finals loss tbh. Still top 10 but I don't think he deserves to be mentioned in your first two tiers until he gets another ring.
You're lost, this isn't the "worst takes of the year" thread tbh
Might want to read the entire post next time, champ.How does your list not include Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain OR EVEN BILL RUSSELL?
hahaha GTFO
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