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I think when we are forced to give up our liberties and freedoms, then the terrorists have won.
There is no land of the free anymore...not that there ever was.
Joe, I'm not doing this as anything personal, but...
This is the exact problem when people get repeat what they hear from one mouthpiece or another.
While it may sound great to say that the party needs to be taken from the left wing radicals, what exactly are you refering too? The Democratic Party is far from being controlled by any left wing radicals, and it is really hard to even suggest that left wing radicals have a decent amount of influence in the party.
What have Democrats done in a recent history that could be considered something that is supported by so called Left Wing radicals?
While it may be something that Rush Limbaugh loves to report and spout off on, there is no substance to support what he says.
In regards to civil liberties, the Democrats are not a group of people supporting them any more than Republicans are. Did you not see the margin of victory the Patriot Act recieved? The policies put into effect in places such as NYC with the subway searches recieve support from both sides of the aisle.
More telling, the last candidate for president the Democrats marched across the stage was extremely moderate and tried to apper more Republican every day of the campaign. There was not an ounce of Left Wing radicalism in John Kerry.
Also, the front runner at the moment for the next nomination - while it is a ways off - is another person who recently called for a move more to the right. Hillary Clinton is far from a Left Wing radical.
The truth is that today's Democrats are nothing more than Republicans with a different party symbol. There are supposed issues of contention, but for the most part these issues are either irrelevent in regards to the federal government, or seve as nothing more than hot button campaign issues that make for excellent talking points.
You see, thats the main problem with todays system. Politicians are always campaigning and trying to gain ground on the next election, and the issues that gain the most support are not nessecarily the issues that require the most attention. A culture that cares more about sensationalism doesn't care about the nuances of border security but does care how their elected officials feel about sexuals.
So, while it is bad enough to sit here and have to listen to people paint a picture where we actually have a 2 party system, it is much worse to have to listen to people say that that either of the parties actually stands for what the other says it does.
Left Wing Radicals? Controlling the Democratic party? From where, the protests they hold in the designated zones miles from the conventions? Or perhaps through the phone calls they make to their elected officials and are ignored because they do not represent a corporate lobby? Or perhaps from aisle 4 at Whole Foods?
Give me a break.
I think when we are forced to give up our liberties and freedoms, then the terrorists have won.
There is no land of the free anymore...not that there ever was.
Good point Manny and I hear what you are saying.
What I mean is that democratic party needs to denounce Moveon.org, Michael Moore, and I don't believe Howard Dean is the way to go.
Nancy Pelosi needs to keep her pie hole shut and learn to lead.
I guess what I'm trying to say is the Democratic cannot be weak on national defense and I'm glad that not all democrats in congress automatically vote against republicans.
Do I agree with all parts of the patriot act. No, but there needs to be a compromise and that is a good thing.
I agree that in all actuallity republicans and democrats are not that much different once they stop their bickering but I think that Karl Rove and his entourage have done a great job of making "liberal" a unpatriotic and immoral thing to be.
I guess I feel that the democratic party has lost some its luster and I want to get it back. The last election was closer than I thought it would be and that was a good sign for me.
Hillary is not a left-wing nut job but that is who she is portrayed on Fox, CNN and the other news networks. If people actually took the time to read up on Hillary they'd be impressed but the bias against her will prevail.
I'm babbling.
I concur.
I was with you up to this point Manny. I don't believe for an instant that had Gore been elected in 2000 that we would be in Iraq right now. Therefore, your comparison between Democrats and Republicans is kinda invalid. Gore would have invaded Afghanistan, of that I have little doubt if 911 had occurred under his administration, but I think Gore would have stayed there and finished the job - even if it meant going into Pakistan.The truth is that today's Democrats are nothing more than Republicans with a different party symbol. There are supposed issues of contention, but for the most part these issues are either irrelevent in regards to the federal government, or seve as nothing more than hot button campaign issues that make for excellent talking points.
I've often wanted to start a thread called, "What if Sean Hannity is right and Michael Moore, Al Frankin, Moveon.org, George Soro and Ted Kennedy really are plotting to control the world?"
What, was Castro already booked up?
Denounce Moveon.org? What the ? WHY? Is George Bush going to come out and denounce the evangelicals? Why do you feel the need for the Democrats to move farther to the right when they are already much like the Republicans? I don't understand your line of thinking here at all.
Do you know what MoveOn.org is Joe?
Moore is a dumbass, but no more so than the idiots Republicans have working for them. And Moore doesn't run the party, he is simply a private citizen. Let me know when he runs for office.
How are they weak on national defense? If you want to be honest about it, BOTH parties are weak on national defense. Where is the border defense we need? Have they provided it?I guess what I'm trying to say is the Democratic cannot be weak on national defense and I'm glad that not all democrats in congress automatically vote against republicans.
You may feel you need to compromise with your civil liberties, but that is absolute bull .Do I agree with all parts of the patriot act. No, but there needs to be a compromise and that is a good thing.
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin
I hate Hillary Clinton, and I've taken enough time to read up on her. I'm sorry Joe, I just feel in your quest to be the moderate you simply repeat what the talking heads say on the radio - you simply repeat half of what rush says and half of what air america says.I agree that in all actuallity republicans and democrats are not that much different once they stop their bickering but I think that Karl Rove and his entourage have done a great job of making "liberal" a unpatriotic and immoral thing to be.
I guess I feel that the democratic party has lost some its luster and I want to get it back. The last election was closer than I thought it would be and that was a good sign for me.
Hillary is not a left-wing nut job but that is who she is portrayed on Fox, CNN and the other news networks. If people actually took the time to read up on Hillary they'd be impressed but the bias against her will prevail.
I'm babbling.
I don't know what Gore would have done, and neither do you. And even the contention you bring up - albeit only a possible one - is only one contention. I give Al Gore different stances on the environment, abortion, and possibly gay marriage, but after that it because the same ing thing. And 2 of those issues are not Federal issues (gay marriage, abortion).
Would Gore have supported CAFTA? Yes.
Would Gore have supported the Patriot Act? Yes
There's no real way to know how Al Gore would have reacted to 9/11, but you can tell how the rest of the democrats in office acted. Just like the Republicans did.
Or have you forgotten that the Iraqi War Resolution was co-sponsered by last years Vice President Candidate?
You forgot the health care legislation that favors pharmaceuticals, the bankruptcy bill that was written by the industry it was supposed to help regulate and the Bush tax-cut which has produced record deficits and very few real jobs. Once again, I don't think we would have seen a tax cut under Gore, at least, not any cut that didn't start with the word Estate. Of course this is all speculation. I don't know for sure what Gore would have done, but I do know that Gore/Liebermann wouldn't have sounded the drums of war so eagerly in Iraq without the structuring of intelligence against Saddam by the Neocons.I don't know what Gore would have done, and neither do you. And even the contention you bring up - albeit only a possible one - is only one contention. I give Al Gore different stances on the environment, abortion, and possibly gay marriage, but after that it because the same ing thing. And 2 of those issues are not Federal issues (gay marriage, abortion).
You're right. We'd be looking a smoking hole that used to be a major American city, somewhere. And, we'd be in several countries...including Iraq.
Yep, Pakistan too...
Where does it say that republicans and democrats need be different on every issue? Just like you said they are alike than most think.
Moveon.org is an extreme left organization, but that is just my opinion and I'm sure you have yours. Because you don't understand my line of thinking doesn't make it wrong, and no, you didn't say it was.
In my opinion is is an extreme left organization who although I may share their beliefs go about things in the wrong way. But again, that is just me.
The point is that Michael Moore hurt the party more than it helped and having him sit by Ted Kennedy was ridiculous. Of course he doesn't run the party but you don't parade his ass around either. But again, that is just me.
What I mean is that we must get back to JFK thinking...
"The world is very different now. For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life. And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe—the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God. 2
We dare not forget today that we are the heirs of that first revolution. Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans—born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage—and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this Nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world. 3
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. 4
This much we pledge—and more."
We must be willing to defend our nation and the notion that many believe that a democratic president will not defend our country must be changed. And to me, that is how I fell many think these days.
Againk, I'm all for civil liberties but damn, a simple search, in my opinion, is not giving away a crucial liberty. But again that is just me. And if you think it is bull , well, again that is just your opinion.
A quote I know very well and it does make me think.
Well whatever it is if I'm repeating it it is still the way I think. To me it is the Chalupa Doctrine and I'm stickin' to it.
There are many of us JFK democrats out there and together we will make a difference just wait and see. So what if some say we are going right if right is the right way to go! DAmn right we need to defend our country but we will do when it is necessary not when it is convenient or without knowing the facts first.
Protecting our borders with more stringent inspections at our ports and giving them the funds they need. If we can spend billions on Iraq's security we sure as can come up with billions to strengthen our borders.
The war on terrorism must continue but we must take it to where they are like in Afghanistan and capture Bin hiden since I'm almost certain we know where he is and if it pisses off Pakistan than so be it.
My thinking is clear even if is not to others.
God knows I have no idea what runs through Dubya's head but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a plan.
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!
What exactly makes MoveOn.org a radical left organization?
They're against Bush!
The classic example is always the ad contest that Moveon.org hosted that featured, before it was removed by the site, a ad comparing W to HItler.
All those simple searches can easily turn into something bigger. That's the way these things are....you give anybody an inch, especially stupid ass politicians, then they instantly believe they can take a yard and you won't be any wiser.
The safety of this country is bull . A couple terrorist acts on the country do not outweigh the sacrifice that people have made throughout the history of this country.
I don't care what anybody says, because once the fat cats in charge take it upon themselves to pass laws that shred and rip the cons ution a little bit, then the terrorists have acheived their goal.
In a matter of 4 years terrorists were able to change the thing that's been the foundation of this country for 230 years.
I think the movie V for Vendetta says it best...
"People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people."
Once people in this country start to fear the government that takes away their civil liberties no matter how small, then this country is no better than Iraq when Saddam was in power.
Joe, you've made a suggestion about a group now back it up.
I am backing it up. To me, Moveon.org is a left-wing organization. That is how I see it. Period. I can't back up what you don't see.
To you their message may not be extreme but to me it is.
Again, it is the way I see it and apparently it is not the way you see it. Oh, I was young once and felt like you and Duff do and still do in many ways but the reality of the world in which we live must not be denied.
JFK rocks!!!
Joe, I understand how you see it, what I'm asking is WHY.
It's obvious MoveOn.org is an organization on the left, but you didn't say left wing, you said RADICAL left wing.
What exactly do you know about MoveOn.org and their actions?
If you don't think that MoveOn.org is a somewhat radical organization, you're on crack. If you don't think that the NRA is a somewhat radical organization, you're on crack.
Manny, you don't have to question everything. Some things are self-evident.
If it is so obvious, then it must be easy to point out a detailed reasoning of WHY.
And for the record, the NRA is not a radical organization either. I don't know what you people have in the water you're drinking, but it is borderline halucinagenic
Well, I'll give an example of what I mean.
Take for example Massachusetts Congressman Marty Meehan latest voting record.
Two weeks ago he voted to support the dismantling of funding for NASA, the agency born from JFK's vision for the future. This is not a JFK democrat.
While this was a "protest" vote I think he could have a chosen a better way of protesting.
Last week he also voted against renewing the Patriot Act. It was approved.
He also voted against a cons utional amendment protecting the US flag from
desecration. It was approved.
He also voted against the parental notification act for minors crossing state lines with an adult to seek an abortion. It was approved.
He also voted against funding for US troops fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. It was approved.
He also voted against a proclamation supporting our troops valor on teh 1st anniversary of the fall of Saddam. It was also approved.
To me this is a clear sign of catering to the far left wing of the democratic party.
While Meehan and others say they follow their convictions in their votes. I don't think the represent what JFK was all about.
That is the best way I can descibe how I feel about the democratic party right now but I will respond more later.
And Moveon.org has just made some statements that to me are "far left" rhetoric.
But more on that later.
Joe, you're a nice person. I've lost a lot of respect for you political opinion, however.
Last week he also voted against renewing the Patriot Act. It was approved.
???????
goddam
i would shake this mans hand
And I don't mean that in a condescending manner. I really don't. You simply dont have a great deal of facts to back up your opinions. You have yet to provide ONE reason why MoveOn.org is a radical organization and you back up your opinion of the Democratic party on the basis of one individual.
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