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Uh-oh, Spaghetti-O's.
http://www.itv.com/news/index_1677571.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4157892.stmMistakes led to tube shooting
"I heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away onto the floor of the carriage" - Surveillance team member
Mistakes led to tube shooting
11.05PM, Tue Aug 16 2005
ITV News has obtained secret do ents and photographs that detail why police shot Jean Charles De Menezes dead on the tube.
The Brazilian electrician was killed on 22 July, the day after the series of failed bombings on the tube and bus network.
The crucial mistake that ultimately led to his death was made at 9.30am when Jean Charles left his flat in Scotia Road, South London.
Surveillance officers wrongly believed he could have been Hussain Osman, one of the prime suspects, or another terrorist suspect.
By 10am that morning, elite firearms officers were provided with what they describe as "positive identification" and shot De Menezes eight times in the head and upper body.
The do ents and photographs confirm that Jean Charles was not carrying any bags, and was wearing a denim jacket, not a bulky winter coat, as had previously been claimed.
He was behaving normally, and did not vault the barriers, even stopping to pick up a free newspaper.
He started running when we saw a tube at the platform. Police had agreed they would shoot a suspect if he ran.
A do ent describes CCTV footage, which shows Mr de Menezes entered Stockwell station at a "normal walking pace" and descended slowly on an escalator.
The do ent said: "At some point near the bottom he is seen to run across the concourse and enter the carriage before sitting in an available seat.
"Almost simultaneously armed officers were provided with positive identification."
A member of the surveillance team is quoted in the report. He said: "I heard shouting which included the word `police' and turned to face the male in the denim jacket.
"He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the CO19 officers. I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side.
"I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting. I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away onto the floor of the carriage."
The report also said a post mortem examination showed Mr de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, but three other bullets missed, with the casings left lying in the tube carriage.
Police have declined to comment while the mistaken killing is still being investigated.
Leak disputes Menezes death story
Jean Charles de Menezes' body after he was shot dead. Credit: ITV news
An image leaked to ITV shows Mr de Menezes lying dead in a train
Leaked do ents appear to contradict the official account of how police mistook a Brazilian man for a suicide bomber and shot him.
The papers, from the probe into Jean Charles de Menezes' death, and leaked to ITV, suggest he was restrained before being shot eight times.
Mr de Menezes, 27, was killed at Stockwell Tube station on 22 July.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) has said it will not comment on its investigation.
Public inquiry
The do ents, including witness statements, also suggest Mr de Menezes did not hurdle the barrier at Stockwell tube station, as first reports previously suggested, and was not wearing a padded jacket that could have concealed a bomb.
The family of Mr de Menezes has called for a public inquiry into his death.
Jean Charles de Menezes
The leak suggests the electrician was restrained before shot
His cousin Allessandro Pereira said: "My family deserve the full truth about his murder. The truth cannot be hidden any longer. It has to be made public."
He said the police should have stopped his cousin before he got to the bus stop after leaving home in Tulse Hill. "He would have helped the police," he said.
"They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone, any English person."
In a statement, the IPCC said it does not know where the do ents came from and that its priority was to keep Mr de Menezes family informed.
'Acting su iously'
The shooting occurred the day after the failed bomb attacks of 21 July.
The latest do ents suggest Mr de Menezes had walked into Stockwell Tube station, picked up a free newspaper, walked through ticket barriers, had started to run when he saw a train arriving and was sitting down in a train when he was shot.
In the immediate aftermath of the incident, police said Mr de Menezes had been acting su iously and suggested he had vaulted the ticket barriers.
The IPCC made it clear that we would not speculate or release partial information about the investigation, and that others should not do so
IPCC statement
Police also said the Brazilian electrician had worn a large winter-style coat - but the leaked version suggested he had in fact worn a denim jacket.
The leaked version said Mr de Menezes was being restrained by a community officer when he was shot by armed police.
'High security'
The IPCC would not comment on the details of the leak.
What sort of society are we living in where we can execute suspects?
Harriet Wistrich
The commission said the family "will clearly be distressed that they have received information on television concerning his death".
Its statement added: "The IPCC made it clear that we would not speculate or release partial information about the investigation, and that others should not do so. That remains the case."
The commission said it operated a "very high degree of security" on all of its investigations.
'Great embarrassment'
Harriet Wistrich, solicitor for the family of Mr de Menezes, said the information the leaked do ents contained was "terrifying".
She urged the government and police to review the shoot-to-kill policy.
"What sort of society are we living in where we can execute suspects?" she said.
"First of all it tells us that the information that was first put out, which was first reported in the news, is almost entirely wrong and misleading.
"There was no suggestion that this person was a suspect in any way, that he was running from the police".
She said it also suggested the information given to the pathologist who carried out the post-mortem examination on Mr de Menezes was incorrect.
Former Flying Squad commander John O'Connor told the BBC the leaked report would cause "great embarrassment" to Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair, adding he would be under pressure to "go".
He also said it was "very difficult" to blame individuals for the death of Mr de Menezes.
"Simply because it would appear that they were acting on information that this was a positive identification of Osman [Hussain], one of the suspect bombers.
"But had the normal procedures taken place in which a warning is given and officers wear specially marked clothing then this young man may not have been killed."
Scotland Yard and the Home Office have so far said it would be inappropriate to comment.
Uh-oh, Spaghetti-O's.
Last edited by Johnny_Blaze_47; 08-17-2005 at 08:50 AM.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...738517,00.html
Leaked report lists 'blunders' as police shot bomb suspect
By Daniel McGrory and Stewart Tendler
SCOTLAND YARD made “a series of catastrophic errors” that led to armed officers hunting the July 21 bombers shooting dead an innocent Brazilian, it was claimed last night.
Leaked witness statements from officers who took part in the botched operation reveal that Jean Charles de Menezes was restrained by one of Scotland Yard’s surveillance team before being shot eight times as he sat on a Tube train.
Do ents and photographs from the Independent Police Complaints Commission investigation also reveal that one of the undercover team meant to be identifying the shot man was relieving himself as Mr de Menezes left his flat on July 22, so could not tell if they had traced Hussain Osman, one of the alleged bombers. It is also suggested that Mr de Menezes could have been taken alive.
Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, will come under pressure to explain how a sophisticated police operation went so badly wrong.
An ITV News investigation claims that when Mr de Menezes, 27, was challenged by police on the Northern Line train at Stockwell he did not make any aggressive move. Police claims at the time that the electrician was “behaving erratically” are alleged to be false.
The blunders began as Mr de Menezes emerged from his flat in Tulse Hill in South London at 9.30am. The undercover officer who was meant to identify anyone leaving the flats admitted that he had left his post, so could not communicate observations or take video footage.
His advice was, “It would be worth someone else having a look”, to ensure that they had the right man. No other officer apparently took a picture of him, although Mr de Menezes had to take a bus to the station. Even so, Gold Command at Scotland Yard, which ran this operation, declared a “code red” and handed responsibility to CO19 — the firearms team.
This armed team had been given photographs of alleged bombers, yet no one realised that Mr de Menezes bore no resemblance to them. The report states that the firearms unit had been told that “unusual tactics” might be required and if they “were deployed to intercept a subject and there was an opportunity to challenge, but if the subject was non-compliant, a critical shot may be taken”.
CCTV footage shows that Mr de Menezes was wearing a thin denim jacket that could not conceal a bomb, and he was not carrying a bag. Far from running from police, he did not realise that anyone was following him and even picked up a free newspaper before using his season ticket to pass through the barrier. He began to run only when he saw his train pull into the station. At the time of the shooting, Scotland Yard said that Mr de Menezes’s “clothing and his behaviour at the station added to their su ions”. It was only when Mr de Menezes boarded the train that a surveillance officer guided four armed police into the same carriage.
A man sitting opposite him is quoted as saying: “Within a few seconds I saw a man coming into the double doors to my left. He was pointing a small, black handgun towards a person sitting opposite me.
“He pointed the gun at the right hand side of the man’s head. The gun was within 12 inches of the man’s head when the first shot was fired.”
The report reveals that one of the surveillance team grabbed Mr de Menezes before he was shot. “I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side,” a statement says.
“I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting . . . I heard a gunshot very close to my left ear and was dragged away on to the floor of the carriage.”
Last night Harriet Wistrich, lawyer for the dead man’s family, said that there were still “far more questions than answers” about police conduct. The family called for a full inquiry.
Rosangela Rebelo, a cousin who lives in the dead man’s home town of Gonzaga, said: “The family always believed his cousins, who lived with him in London, over the police version of events. I never believed he ran away. The family is still waiting for justice. They killed an innocent man.”
CONTRADICTIONS
Police de Menezes wearing su ious clothing
Evidence to inquiry Wearing only thin denim jacket
Police Acting su iously on way to Stockwell station Evidence to inquiry Nothing odd in his behaviour
Police Challenged at station and refused to obey instructions
Evidence Challenged for first time while seated on train Police de Menezes vaulted ticket barrier to escape
Evidence Did not vault. Ran only to catch train
Police Eight shots fired into him
Evidence Eleven shots fired, three missed
You know, I was going to bold the article's key points, but pretty much all of it sums up the -up.
As I stated in all previous threads about this topic: Huge up by the London police. Back then it looked and smelled like a up, even though clan and others were trying by all possible means to justify it. Now its pretty clear it was a up.
Well since these reports have come out it looks to be a up. But from the initial reports, I would have just described it as an accident. With all the conflicting stories I'll wait for the final inverstigation.
secret do ents? i'd like to see someone prosecuted for the leaks...
When the Police kills the wrong guy the way this Brazilian dude was killed, it's an accident which can be characterized as a up.
And even with the info we had three weeks ago, to many of us it looked like a up.
Clan, what's your take now?
Sure, the leaks are the important thing in the whole situation.
You know, Chris...you weren't one of the people claiming that de Menezes deserved to be shot since he was running (obviously, since Geraldo reported it), since he was wearing a long coat (since 70s is summer, 80s is pretty hot and 90s, they're dying) and that THEY wouldn't run if confronted with guns (especially since he was sitting on a train when he was first confronted).
But some people on this forum fought tooth and nail for this case. Now let's see them respond.
I wonder if the cop was using one of those toilets with the cleaning lady working for tips - she might be able to be a witness in this whole thing.
Cough-cough...Novak...cough-cough.
And there, my friends, is the finest logic to come from our own military-intelligencia.
Clan is su iously absent from this thread.
Not to mention TRO, jochhejaam and others . . .
Last edited by smeagol; 08-17-2005 at 09:45 AM.
Stunning, if true.
but overall, i'd like to see what the final report says... in the meantime, the leakers need to be found out.. revealing secret do ents is never good
That's the best you can come up with? Was your intelligence revoked when you were discharged?
i said i'd like to see the final report sucker...
If the up was this astronomical, it is definetly good that the docs were leaked. I can bet you, now that the docs are in the public domain, that the London police will review their proceedures carefully and will try hard not to it up the next time.
Hey, maybe this leak helps save in the future an innocent guy's life (somebody you know, maybe?).
By the way Clan, how hard is it to say: "I was wrong"
i will wait to see what the final report says when it comes out... earlier reports said the cops told him to stop and he ran...
I have nothing further to add to this thread except that next time I see the LaChino I'm buying him a beer....errr Dr. Pepper.
If this report is true, I guess this pretty much exonerates the officers who shot him. The guy who made the "positive identification" and communicated it to the response team needs to be canned.
so, then only one officer would be in the wrong.. the rest would be off scott free... following orders...
Oh, NOW you want to see final reports.
Back then, it was all...
"I wouldn't have run if confronted with a gun."
"I, in my travels across the world, would never wear a long coat in hot weather."
"This guy worked in London, he had to know what was being said to him."
" this asshole for running."
"How many run when confronted with multiple guns?"
"Trying to evade arrest...guilty...death was harsh, but you make your bed...lie in it."
dude shouldn't have ran...
I hope to God you're never late for something and have to run to get there.
Back then, it was all that...but only now should we wait for the final report?
Hypocrite.
Actually, there are a lot of people who need to be canned. Starting with the people who didn't do their ing homework on the building enough to know it was made up of 9 different apartments. This whole operation had a load of mistakes.
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