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its shoo-in, not shoe-in
now that ive addressed the important issue, ill read the rest of this more carfully
Want to get some feedback here... there are no right or wrong answers.
Three questions:
1) What would you realistically require to trade Castle?
2) What would you realistically require to trade pick #2?
3) If you were forced to trade one of them, which would you choose and why?
Not asking whether or not we should do this, or if you want us to do this... just want to get your opinions on what offer would be required to make one of these trades (though certainly feel free to add why you don't think we should do this or why you don't want us to do this).
I ask, because despite my excitement for the 3-Headed Guard Demon of Fox/Castle/Harper, I think there is a fair case to be made that you might be better off moving one of them for a more balanced roster. I think the only way to fully evaluate this hypothetical is to to do so in the full context of the options.
I also think it's completely fine to admit that if Fox hadn't just got here, he'd be the one to trade. With that said, I think there is zero chance we trade him as no agent would ever take our calls and they'd steer all of their clients away from us. It would be very, very bad.
For me:
1) I need to get back a high end young forward or wing. I'm talking Franz (we'd have to add more in terms of compensation, not to mention salary ballast). TMIII is pretty close in my mind to a fair straight up trade (ignoring salary matching). Jalen Johnson if they attached a little more compensation. This, in my opinion, is kind of the range of options that I'd consider (whereby we had to add more for Franz and the other team would have to add more for Jalen Johnson). I consider guys like Amen and Mobley to be too far of reaches.
2) I'd only do it for a legit young superstar forward/wing trade (we'd have to add more for most of these). #2 for Franz straight up is the lowest end of where I have to pause or thinking about (and both teams are probably saying no if I had to guess). #2 for Mobley? Hmmm, now you've got my attention if we want to discuss what it would take to make this happen. I'm certainly up to discuss #2 for Giannis, but I'm going to value #2 more than MIL probably would and I'm not sending 3 more FRPs and a handful of swaps.
3) If I were forced to choose, I'd trade Castle (and I love Castle). There are some fair criticisms about his shooting efficiency and defense (which took a Devin like nosedive after a promising start). While I believe these things will be corrected, they are certainly not a shoe-in.
Again... I fully grasp the case of why we shouldn't trade either one (and that is kind of where I'm at anyway)... but I'd like to hear some realistic options from folks so we could fully flesh out the options here. (Please no Castle for Joker straight up fantasies). And the end of the day, it would ONLY make sense to trade for another forward or capable shooting big... but honestly there aren't that many in the NBA (which should put in perspective what we're all asking for when we talk about this mythical shooting/rebounding/defending PF... some people laugh at John Collins... but he's honestly among the best of the archetype because the archetype is rare and everything better than John Collins gets into max contract territory).
I look forward to reading the thoughtful comments that aren't dripping in false hyperbole.
Last edited by scott; 05-19-2025 at 01:58 AM.
its shoo-in, not shoe-in
now that ive addressed the important issue, ill read the rest of this more carfully
I'd let Fox walk before trading the #2 or Castle, and I wouldn't let Fox walk.
Castle is in a hazy area where he has good value but it's unclear just what he's going to become. Like, no one would trade Franz Wagner for him, but he could wind up being that grade of player. He's just in the middle of becoming.
I fully believe a Castle-Harper backcourt can work very, very well. (The question is Fox, but I'm not worried about it.) I'm very high on Castle. I remember that he was possibly the second or third most important player on a of a UConn basketball team. I think Harper could let him play more of a natural 'point' that he likes to be, while Harper also performs those duties, and then focus on defense. Castle is really good off-ball even without a deep threat, and he finds a way to score. He lead UConn in scoring overall in the Final Four. He's just a really, really smart basketball player with terrific instincts, great work ethic, size, and budding skills.
So it's kind of a throw of an answer. Harper could be a franchise piece and if he and Castle can't co-exist, you may have to move Castle, but I don't think we will at all.
This. But between the two ill trade the number 2 pick. Ralistically we only need harper if fox is not on the team. Thats why in my opinion spurs will pick bailey in the draft or trade it.
Last edited by skin27; 05-19-2025 at 01:52 AM.
Franz or similar level wing/forward feels like the only answers. My personal preference would be JJJ, but why on earth would Orl move Franz or Mem JJJ. They're too young and too good. TMIII is close enough given his contract its a yes for me.
Outside of Flagg or a Luka/Ant/not-gonna-happen prime NBA1/2 guy, I'm not interested in trading the #2pick.
Gun to head, trade Castle for right piece bc Fox/Castle/Harper isn't a perfect fit, and Castle's trade value is likely never to be higher (as I think you've eloquently laid out).
I love Castle, I think he's got star potential (but not superstar, top 15 potential), he could be a very good #2 guy, but barring him becoming a well above average 3% shooter he seems like the kind of #2 that's likely overpriced at Max. Very likely best suited to be maybe the best #3 in basketball. I think Harper has a much easier path to be a top30 guy, with potential to actually be top15. Harper could very very well be that #2guy with Castle as that great #3 and I think Castle and Harper could give us a SGA/JWill level D with Wemby behind them, and a Wemby/Harper/Castle O could well be better than SGA/JWill/Chet. I'm not interested in giving that up for near term. Any move of either of them needs to be a for guy that's still in his prime in 4 yrs.
Barring injury, I think OKC is about to make a 3-4 yrs run. Maybe beatable in a few yrs, but barring injury...they will be extremely tough to beat, like 0.3 flukely/Ray Allen wtf flukely to beat. Complete on both sides of ball/deep/young/beautiful game team.
If that's true, I want option D. If we HAVE to move someone this summer, Fox is the guy to move. I think he'll be extremely important for the next 2 yrs, maybe give us a good 3rd yrs. Then I think he's a Beal/Levine kind of Max, maybe still a good player, but a guy you wish was not handicapping you financially. I am terrified of giving a wholly speed reliant dude, whose prolly a top 30 guy today but definitely not a top 20 guy, 1+ 4 more years at Max. He will not get better as he ages. He's much more likely to be a top75 guy at 30+ then a top30 guy. Much. Top 75 guys don't deserve max $$$, even if they made 1 AS game at 25.
I want him here on the south side of 30, I want no part of paying him max north of 30. None. Maybe he lives up to it, much more likely he does not.
Wemby/Harper/Castle could be truly special in 2/3 years, when OKC starts shedding pieces. Please just grow like OKC did, let your guys grow together, keep collecting assets. Do not push the chips in when Wemby is going on 22. Look at OKC, look at Hou, look at Boston. Be patient, grow organically. Add when your close, not because you think someone gets you closer before you've been a .500 team. You got Fox, don't pursue another guy unless he closely matches the timeline of Wemby. Please god. Short of Joker/Luka/Ant no one is getting us past OKC next yr, so don't try. Get to the POs and evaluate next yr. Keep pounding the rock, let Wemby and the guards grow next yr. Add marginal pieces and grow.
If one has to go today, Fox. Trade the "All-star" before everyone realizes he will never be an all-star again, that he's a speed guy that made one AS team/NBA3 when he was at his speed/skill peak at 25. He won't be 25 again. He won't be an All-star again.
If one has to go, its the one it'll turn 30 before OKC is done dominating.
But, I think best course is run Fox/Harper/Castle for the next 2/3 yrs, fire-sale Fox (or better yet, 2-yr extension, then sign/trade him). Grow together, let Harper and Castle grow with and learn from Fox, take the last of his good yrs and graciously thank him for his service.
I didn't want a 30+y/o max Fox on the Spurs before, with the gift of Harper having an older Fox feels like a nightmare waiting to happen.
Last edited by Arguendo; 05-19-2025 at 01:43 AM.
1 - TM3 is a trade I would do, fit just seems perfect. NOP are higher on him than anybody though despite being a bad team, tough to pry him away. I do wonder if his injury history might be enough to balance it out to get a deal done. I love Castle more than I probably should based on his rough advanced stats/efficiency. I just think guards suck at those early on (Booker, Fox for example) and they aren't as indicative of what a guard can become later on. I do wonder how he will feel about less ball handling/usage and more of maybe a Dort type role.
2 - This may sound crazy, i'm at the point where I would need an ascending top 30-35 player or so to trade the #2 pick. If its not that, then i'd rather just roll the dice with Harper and see if his talent has the work ethic to match.
3 - If a godfather offer were to happen I would send off Castle. The offensive force that Harper *could* develop into is just too strong to let slip through our fingers. Nothing is guaranteed with any rookie, but even his floor should equate to a very good NBA player and fringe all-star at some point.
All of this to say that I am all in for running the 3 guards staggered and together. I realize that in the short term it would cost us some reg season wins and is not optimal. But from a data collecting perspective it is absolutely worth it to do and will help guide our moves down the road. We are highly unlikely to be in play for a top 3 seed next year even if things go great w/ Wemby's health and the guards clicking. We should still have enough talent overhead to be in the playoffs and we can learn about our guys and make moves accordingly.
Basically this. Too early to tell, but Castle-Harper has potential to be incredible with Wemby as the #1, on both side of ball.
We don't know enough yet, Castle hasn't shown he will be Franz level, but that's clearly possible. If one has to go, Fox, but don't let Fox go until Harper/Castle show what they are together.
I dont think harper can show is full potential with fox on the team. Both harper and fox are ball dominant guards.
I don't think Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili can play together. Both need the ball in their hands.
Parker is a PG and ginobili plays SG. Both fox and harper play PG and ball dominant. Oh and dont forget castle is on the team.
I am requiring no less than 3 FRPs, unprotected, for each preferably from a team currently in the lottery now.
Both #2 and Castle are at a peak value right now. Each could continue to trend upward in the future, but there is of course risk they lose value too (e.g., #2 alone by virtue of "driving the new car out of the lot" effect).
Would anyone here take less than that from Ainge, for example, if he proposes to trade up to #2 from #5?
Jesus ing Christ. The Spurs go stretches of YEARS with nobody that can run the ing offense and as soon as there's a chance we have more than two, everybody freaks out and wants to trade someone. Can you just enjoy not having to worry about who's gonna bring the ball up? This isn't Carmelo and Iverson. Every guard on the Spurs for the next 15 years is going to have to learn that Victor stirs the drink. Let's pick the best player available and see how they work together.
I've mentioned that I like selling Fox on the idea of being Jamaal Crawford, turning him loose to destroy second teams and get gaudy stats. He wants to be here, so convincing him to be Manu Ginobili shouldn't be a hard sell, and the Spurs can't even discuss trading a guy who asked to come here. Do that and never get a free agent again.
Harper had to act that part because Rutgers roster was awful. There is film out there with them running some inbounds plays to him, and those looked pretty good. He also cuts well off the ball for easy buckets. I wouldn’t pidgeonhole him as Josh Giddey just yet.
1) I'd need a young ascending player of a different position in return (someone like Franz, Mobley, Paolo, or JJJ. If for picks I'd take 3 unprotected 1sts from a historically bad team.
2) Flagg, Ant, Luka, etc: basically a top end guy who's worth more than his contract.
3) Castle
Ginobili is a combo guard who had the ball in his hands plenty of times, you as a Spurs fan should know that. Same with Harper, he can play PG and SG.
I'll give you another one: I don't think Derrick White and Jrue Holiday can play together. Both need the ball in their hands.
yes i know but ginobili isnt in yhe same ceiling as harper is. Harper is more like harden who was able yo reach his potential when he left the shadow of 2 ball dominant in durant and westbrook in OKC.
Harper can do that too in 3 years when we trade Fox
Fox is the one you should trade but you can't do that at this time.
So it's best for the Spurs to try to make it work for at least a couple of years with the three. I wouldn't trade any of them at this time as the future backcourt is set.
I was about to post and say the same/similar to what Rascal just said. You don't trade any of them. You give it at least 2 seasons in my opinion before even considering it. You don't do it before seeing what it looks like first.
The Fox situation is sticky. He has next year left, plus an extension. You have to hope that maybe he chooses a short one, like the 3 years that some players take now, so that he can maybe score one more big contract. Then you work with Klutch before and during that last year to find him a preferred landing spot from a list of 3-4 teams.
Nothing. all that.
Fox, Castle, and Harper. That's the right there.
Wemby is going to destroy with these guys who can actually pass him the ball.
you guys, yeah if we're being realistic then Fox should be the odd man out.
He forced his way to the team. I wouldn't do that to him.
Can I trade for a coach? Like in football. Bc I would love to have Spo
Question one to trade Castle: For me it would have to be a kings ransom. He is a part of the Spurs legacy now having won rookie of the year. I would need draft picks and an equally good player that is a forward or big. The only guards I would trade him for would be Luka and Ant. That would not be realistic so a young forward would that fit the spurs timeline. The problem with a Giannis or Jokic or any other dream trade is salary so I’m looking for someone that won’t strip the entire team. So someone that hasn’t gotten that 2nd max extension. Banchero or Wagner. Chet Holmgren. That level of player. But also give me a 1st and a 2nd because F you for putting me in this situation lol forcing he to trade my homegrown talent. So basically not happening.
Question 2 Trading Harper/2: I’m a little more open to this but once again a player on the spurs timeline. Nobody on that 2nd max extension. Would need to be a forward or big. Banchero, Wagner, Sengun, Holmgren, Amen Thompson, Cooper Flagg. Also give me some picks 2 unprotected firsts and a pick swap. Reason being Pick #2 contract is more valuable and cheaper for longer. So in any trade the spurs would be taking on salary and I want picks for that. The one exception would be Flagg I would do a 1 for 1 no picks and give the mavs their pick swap back. Otherwise I would tell them to go F themselves and if they want Harper that bad draft him. Once again unrealistic.
Question 3 forced to trade pick 2/Harper or Castle: Personally and I know this won’t be a popular opinion but I’m keeping the guy that has already proven in. Castle has shown he can play in this league at a high level. What if Harper is Markele Fultz? Prospects don’t always translate and bust rates are very high. I actually think Harper is really good but you never know. High school and college are completely different than the NBA. Different style of play. Traditionally the stat that translates best is rebounding. Some great college scorers have been very bad in the NBA. Some great college PGs have busted. Lock down college defenders bust all the time. Why couldn’t Harper carry Rutgers to the NCAA tournament? I know he got sick and had a high ankle sprain and so on but is this guy a winner? Castle played off ball and hurt his draft stock in order to win a national championship at UCONN. Harper went to Rutgers to play with Ace Bailey. Tell me who wanted to win more? I’m taking Castle. Harper could very easily end up the better player. That’s the more likely outcome for sure but the alternative of him busting is scary. One bird in hand is better than two in the bush. It would be very unlike the Spurs to trade a Rookie of the Year, Dunk contest runner up, Rising Stars MVP. A guy that has chemistry with Wemby. If you trade Castle and Harper busts Wemby would never trust the Spurs evaluations again. The risk of losing the Trust of your Generational Franchise Player. No thanks! If forced to trade one I’m keeping Castle.
I’m not sure I’d even do that, because you’d be hoping that one of them becomes a pick as good as our current #2 with a player as good as Harper available.
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