Detroit Pistons and Flip Saunders

[conqueso]

I'm sure this has been cursorily discussed in a dozen different threads, but I thought maybe if there's any interest we could focus on it here. Here's my question:

How will Flip's coaching affect the Pistons in the playoffs?

We all know what a wonderful job Flip has been doing this year with the Pistons. He has "taken the Larry Brown shackles off their offense," as ESPN repeats ad nauseum. And despite everyone's expectations, they have maintained the defensive intensity they had under LB. However, there is another difference between the two coaches. Brown was a proven winner at both the college level and in the NBA Playoffs. Flip has not been a proven winner in the playoffs. So I think the question just kinda naturally comes up: will Flip's past postseason failures make a difference?

I guess there are two schools of thought on this issue. One is that the fact that Flip is not a very good coach in the postseason will not affect Detroit; the entire team has tasted playoff success, the boneheaded calls that their coach is destined to make at the end of games won't disrupt their focus, and his air of failure won't rub off on his team. The other is that Flip will fail again; he's coached great teams with superstars in the past and gotten his ass whipped over and over again, and also lacks the experience and instinct needed to perform at a high level in pressure-packed NBA Finals situations.

I don't really know how I would answer this question, which is why I appeal to the San Antonio and Detroit fans on SpursTalk. I can see both arguments, and one doesn't stand out to me as being better than the other. So I've compiled some relevant stats about Flip in the past, and maybe they'll help us out.

Flip's coaching career:
Year Reg. Season Post Season Lost to
95-96: 20-42 (.323)
96-97: 40-42 (.488) 0-3 (.000) Rockets - 1st
97-98: 45-39 (.536) 2-3 (.400) Sonics - 1st
98-99: 25-25 (.500) 1-3 (.250) Spurs* - 1st
99-00: 50-32 (.610) 1-3 (.250) Blazers - 1st
00-01: 47-35 (.573) 1-3 (.250) Spurs - 1st
01-02: 50-32 (.610) 0-3 (.000) Mavs - 1st
02-03: 51-31 (.622) 2-4 (.500) Lakers - 1st
03-04: 58-24 (.707) 10-8 (.556) Lakers - WCF
04-05: 25-26 (.490)
Totals 411-328 (.556) 17-30 (.362) 2-8
* - Loss to eventual NBA Champion

As far as the coaches he's faced in the Post Season:
Rudy T: 0-1
George Karl: 0-1
Pop: 0-2
Mike Dunleavy: 0-1
Don Nelson: 0-1
Phil: 0-2
Rick Adelman: 1-0
Jeff Bzdelik: 1-0

A little history:
Flip took over the T-Wolves 20 games into the 95-96 season, KG's rookie year...that team also featured Rider, Laettner, Gugliotta, and Sam Mitc , but failed to make the playoffs...96-97 team drafted Stephon Marubury (he averaged 15.8 ppg and 7.8 apg)...KG and Gugliotta were All-Stars...swept by Rockets (with Dream, Barkley and Clyde)...forced to trade Marbury and not resign Gugliotta in 98-99 because of the huge contract McHale gave KG (6 years, $126 million)...Terrell Brandon took over for Marbury and averaged 14.2 ppg and 9.8 apg...lost to eventual NBA Champion Spurs in the first round, but were one of only two teams to win a game against the Spurs in the playoffs that year...drafted Wally in 99-00...forfeited 5 drafts picks and fined $3.5 million in 00-01 for shady dealings with Joe Smith...swept by Dallas in 01-02...KG finishes second in MVP voting in 02-03 and play the Lakers tough, losing in 6 games...sign Sprewell and Cassell in 03-04 and KG is MVP...once again lose in 6 to the Lakers (with Shaq, Kobe, Malone, Payton, and Phil) after advancing past the first round of the playoffs for the first time in seven post season appearances...Spree and Sam turned out to be whiny little es in 04-05, and Flip was fired after 51 games.

So pretending to be a Flip apologist for a second, he had to deal with ill-timed injuries, primadonna role players, and NBA sanctions during his tenure with T-Wolves, so it should be no surprise that he couldn't win in the playoffs. On the other side of the aisle, he coached KG (who some might argue is the best power forward of all time) and had oodles of talent on most of the teams he went down in flames with in the post season.

This year, he inherited a pre-built team that had already been trained in how to play the type of defense that Flip couldn't ever seem to coax out of any of his T-Wolves teams. He didn't around with a good thing and install all of those crazy zones he used frequently in Minnesota, but has instead "opened up the offense" by giving Rip and Chauncey and Sheed green lights to play with the creativity that would have made Larry Brown's bladder burst. (I mean seriously, what do you think would have happened if Rasheed had launched up 9 three-pointers and made only 1 under LB's watch? Would Larry Brown's head have exploded like that guy in the Chappelle Show skit about the black white supremicist? This is an honest question.) As a result, the Pistons are clearly the finest team in the NBA so far this season, and there are still people out there who talk seriously about 70 wins.

A couple of things to consider though. Will the Pistons' defense remain as lethal as it has been? In other words, is their defensive success this year attributable more to momentum and the residual lingerings of LB's coaching, or is it ingrained in the players, a self-perpetuating training that needs no reinforcement? How will Flip keep the Pistons going if injury strikes one of those high-30's mpg starters on a team with what really amounts to a 7-man rotation and wants for depth? What will happen when Flip and his assistants face a superior coaching staff in a 7 game series? Comments?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Nice freakin' post!


For anyone new to the posting game, that's how it's done. . .Admiral style!





To respond, I think the personnel of the Pistons' team dictates that they'll be just as good defensively as they've always been. What makes this team great are the pieces that have been assembled.

Flip is a better coach than people give him credit for. The Wolves haven't done anything since he's left. My thought is that his Wolves teams were probably over-achieving in the regular season only to be exposed in the playoffs.

The Pistons don't have any big weaknesses, and I don't see anyone exploiting any major team defect come playoff time. The only team with the talent to beat them is the Spurs, and it will have to be a focussed determined Spurs team, not the one that's been playing so far this season.

I'm not a huge Flip Saunders fan, but I think his coaching legacy of not being able to win in the playoffs will probably change this year.

[timvp]

Nice post.

The scariest thing to me about the Pistons is Flip is their coach. Not because he's a great coach, but because the team wants to prove it wasn't just Larry Brown that led them to a championship.

I don't think he's a good defensive coach, but the players on that team are great across the board defensively, so Joe Dumars was smart enough to just concentrate on the offensive side of the court when pick a new head coach. Want to know how good of an offensive coach Flip Sanders is? Rasho averaged over 11 points per game in his system.

'Nuff said.

[FreshPrince22]

This same exact thing has been posted 100000000 times.

I would be concerned if it weren't for the fact that all of those playoff appearances were with the same team and (most importantly) the same key player. Untill it happens in a different situation, you can just as easily say it was the players. And those Wolves teams were big time overachievers. If you consider guys like Wally, old-Cassell, and cancer-Spree "oodles of talent" you're . As you can see with what's going on right now, KG is not capable of putting a team on his back and into the playoffs, much less the finals. And since when was Larry Brown a "proven Post-season winner" before he came to the Pistons? The guy only made the Finals 1 time in his career, and that was during the year when the East was probably the worst conference in the history of the NBA.

You are also incorrect about many assessments of this current team. The Pistons defense has gotten notably BETTER as the season has gone on. That doesn't really support the theory that the defense was from "residual lingerings of LB's coaching". Pistons "D" being good had a lot more to do with Big Ben, Sheed, Tayshaun, and Billups than it had to do with a coach.

Also, the fact that Sheed can go 1 for 9 and not get reamed a new one is part of why this team is playing so well (on that note, similar numbers happend under LB that people forget about, but LB played favorites and didn't do anything). You can't have a guy worrying every time he takes a shot. That throws shooters out of rhythm, and forces even more misses.

The minutes issue is another thing is another issue that is extremely overblown. The Pistons don't have ANY players in the top 32 in MPG, and the only guy in the top 40 is Rip Hamilton. Who is probably the most physically fit player in the league. They also play LESS minutes than they did last year. Period. End of Topic.

As for your "7 deep" comment. You're flat out wrong. The Pistons go 9 deep EVERY night, and that is with Lindsey Hunter being out the entire year so far. They are much deeper than last year. Delfino and Mo Evans have/will suprise a lot of people.

You can keep looking for weaknesses all you want. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[polandprzem]

yup.

At the begining of a season I was thinking about realy good year by the Pistons, and a collapse in the playoffs, but they passed enybodys expectations going nust in the fisrts half of a season.
I do not see a team in the Estern coast able to beat them and they could go sleepwalking through Eastern Conf. and be fresh going into the Finals. And probably they will be the favorites.
They are hungry , they want the championship back , they want to prove it was not all about Larry. They are tested in the big playoff battles, tough defensively minded team with the new ofensive spark given by Flip. And Saunders want's to make his own stand. That those Minnesotas 'mistakes' was not his fault and he want to prove it to McHale as for garnett.

Who you think are able to beat them?
Indy? Not anymore.
Miami? Wade can't handle all alone and Shaq is not diesel anymore. Will Jwill and walker the Pistons fans can sleep peacefully
LeBrons? RU kidding me?
Big Nets trio? Nope but the've got some weapon

That would be all the list.


Now question is if the spurs will be where Detroit will be in June? Yea thats a question

[himat]

i don't know if flip was a losing coach or if it was the wolves.

[Kori Ellis]

As for your "7 deep" comment. You're flat out wrong. The Pistons go 9 deep EVERY night, and that is with Lindsey Hunter being out the entire year so far. They are much deeper than last year. Delfino and Mo Evans have/will suprise a lot of people.

But your starters play the same, if not more minutes, than they did last year when Pistons fans were worried that their starters played too many minutes.

[Obstructed_View]

Here's the bottom line: The Pistons don't have any real weaknesses aside from the fact that the Spurs will kill them when both teams are playing their best. The best the Pistons can hope is that the Spurs are still fighting injuries and struggling with apathy and chemistry issues. The Pistons have a nice built-in excuse that it was their coach that cost them the championship last year. Frankly, I'm sick of hearing about it. Wow, they are beating all the teams they should have beaten last year when they took every third or fourth game off. I'm not impressed. I am glad that the Spurs are still able to fly under the radar and get themselves ready for the stretch run.

[FreshPrince22]

But your starters play the same, if not more minutes, than they did last year when Pistons fans were worried that their starters played too many minutes.

Pistons fans were worried about Tayshaun and Rip's minutes last year. Ben, Sheed, and Chauncey all played/play very reasonable minutes. And really, Prince is the only guy I worry about.

Minutes - (04/05) - (05/06)
Hamilton - 38.5 - 36.9 (-1.7)
Prince - 37.1 - 36.0 (-1.1)

More importantly, since Delfino has "come on", Tayshaun's minutes are WAY down. He's averaging 29.7mpg over the last 11 games.

And IMO, the only "fatigue" that the Pistons felt last year was due to playing the Heat to a 7 game series, while the Spurs were resting at home.

[SequSpur]

WGAF about Detroit.

Nets > Pistons.

Spurs in 4.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Pistons fans were worried about Tayshaun and Rip's minutes last year. Ben, Sheed, and Chauncey all played/play very reasonable minutes. And really, Prince is the only guy I worry about.

Minutes - (04/05) - (05/06)
Hamilton - 38.5 - 36.9 (-1.7)
Prince - 37.1 - 36.0 (-1.1)

More importantly, since Delfino has "come on", Tayshaun's minutes are WAY down. He's averaging 29.7mpg over the last 11 games.

And IMO, the only "fatigue" that the Pistons felt last year was due to playing the Heat to a 7 game series, while the Spurs were resting at home.

Duncan's played almost as many minutes as the Pistons starters. I'm not really buying the fatigue factor either.

[conqueso]

...The minutes issue is another thing is another issue that is extremely overblown. The Pistons don't have ANY players in the top 32 in MPG, and the only guy in the top 40 is Rip Hamilton. Who is probably the most physically fit player in the league. They also play LESS minutes than they did last year. Period. End of Topic.

04-05 mpg
Hamilton: 38.5
Billups: 35.8
Prince: 37.1
Sheed: 34.0
Ben: 36.1

05-06 mpg
Hamilton: 37.0 (-1.5)
Billups: 36.3 (+.5)
Prince: 35.9 (-1.2)
Sheed: 35.3 (+1.3)
Ben: 36.4 (+.3)

So I guess in the aggregate you are correct (-36 seconds per game), but emphasizing that they play less this year is just not really persuasive. They play just as much as they did last year, which is a lot. Of all the starting lineups in the league, they average the most minutes by far (180.9).

As for your "7 deep" comment. You're flat out wrong. The Pistons go 9 deep EVERY night, and that is with Lindsey Hunter being out the entire year so far. They are much deeper than last year. Delfino and Mo Evans have/will suprise a lot of people.

I don't consider Delfino and Arroyo part of the regular rotation since they both average less than 12 mpg and sometimes get DNP/CDs. For comparison, the Spurs have 10 players that average more minutes than either of those two, as opposed to 7 by the Pistons. But whatever, that's all just semantics. The point remains: the Pistons do lack depth relative to other championship contenders. I don't think think anyone looking at their roster 1-12 can rationally argue with that.

You can keep looking for weaknesses all you want. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

As a brief epilogue, I wonder why the Pistons fans talk so much ...I mean, didn't the Spurs earn the bragging rights by defeating the Pistons in the NBA Finals last year? Isn't the fact that the Spurs got the rings and didn't choke in the fourth quarter of Game 7 worth anything?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

WGAF about Detroit.

Nets > Pistons.

Spurs in 4.

This just jogged my memory...

Didn't we bet last year? Spurs were up 2-0, you had Spurs sweep, I had Pistons winning at least one game ... was it you?

[Tanya]

I am not worried about the coach at all. As long as we have big ben and Rasheed, there is no way they don't play defense. It was the right time that Joe. D fired LB and brought Flip in. We are absolutely a better team this year than the last year. I am not saying that Flip > LB. We thank LB for what he has taught this team. But it's time for him to go because he wouldn't make this team any better. When a team has the best starting five and have been playing together for so long, it's time to give them some freedom to run offense like Flip does. LB used to told the players :"You can't hit the 3's.. you have to play like this like that.." Come on, when you have Rip, Chauncey, Resheed and Prince, there is no way to stop them being more agressive offensively. Each of them has the ability to score 30 any given night. I think this team is in a very good shape this year and I hope to see more efforts Flip will put on the bench.

[FreshPrince22]

04-05 mpg
Hamilton: 38.5
Billups: 35.8
Prince: 37.1
Sheed: 34.0
Ben: 36.1

05-06 mpg
Hamilton: 37.0 (-1.5)
Billups: 36.3 (+.5)
Prince: 35.9 (-1.2)
Sheed: 35.3 (+1.3)
Ben: 36.4 (+.3)

So I guess in the aggregate you are correct (-36 seconds per game), but emphasizing that they play less this year is just not really persuasive. They play just as much as they did last year, which is a lot. Of all the starting lineups in the league, they average the most minutes by far (180.9).

Why can't people comprehend the fact that players aren't affected by their teammates minutes? Rip at 37 minutes per game is not feeling more fatigued because his team's 5th highest in minutes (Sheed), plays more than your average 5th highest. You cannot compare the Pistons starters to ANY other team, because NO team has 5 guys that contribute the same amount. Try this... Rate the Pistons starters from 1-5. Then take the 4th and 5th players and find me a team that is better at those spots. You won't find ANY. We don't have a Rasho or Nazr that don't deserve big minutes. If Big Ben was on the Spurs, you don't think he'd be playing big minutes?

And look at the minutes. The top 2 guys have seen a significant drop in minutes. Chauncey has played slightly more because Lindsey Hunter has been out the entire season. And Sheed has played more, because he was in better shape this year. He still plays less than Duncan, who is playing hurt. No Piston is in the top 32 in minutes played. End of story.

I don't consider Delfino and Arroyo part of the regular rotation since they both average less than 12 mpg and sometimes get DNP/CDs. For comparison, the Spurs have 10 players that average more minutes than either of those two, as opposed to 7 by the Pistons. But whatever, that's all just semantics. The point remains: the Pistons do lack depth relative to other championship contenders. I don't think think anyone looking at their roster 1-12 can rationally argue with that.

Arroyo hasn't had a single DNP-CD all year. He missed 1 game when he was suspended, that's it. And Delfino has worked his way into the rotation over the season. The only DNP's he has gotten lately is because he was sick. And I didn't know there was a "12 minutes per game rule" for rotation players . If the guy plays in every game he's available for, he's in the rotation, period.

As a brief epilogue, I wonder why the Pistons fans talk so much ...I mean, didn't the Spurs earn the bragging rights by defeating the Pistons in the NBA Finals last year? Isn't the fact that the Spurs got the rings and didn't choke in the fourth quarter of Game 7 worth anything?

I don't see any Pistons fans "talking ". I see Spurs fans searching for every possibly thing to discount the Pistons, and Pistons fans defending their team. You're the only one "talking ".

[Obstructed_View]

LB used to told the players :"You can't hit the 3's.. you have to play like this like that.."

The Suns thought they could win shooting threes against the Spurs, too.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

04-05 mpg
Hamilton: 38.5
Billups: 35.8
Prince: 37.1
Sheed: 34.0
Ben: 36.1

05-06 mpg
Hamilton: 37.0 (-1.5)
Billups: 36.3 (+.5)
Prince: 35.9 (-1.2)
Sheed: 35.3 (+1.3)
Ben: 36.4 (+.3)

So I guess in the aggregate you are correct (-36 seconds per game), but emphasizing that they play less this year is just not really persuasive. They play just as much as they did last year, which is a lot. Of all the starting lineups in the league, they average the most minutes by far (180.9).

This isn't the first time a solid starting five has played that many minutes...

1985 Boston Celtics(IMO the best starting 5 ever)

Bird: 39.5
McHale: 33.6
Parish: 36.1
DJ: 37.2
Ainge: 34.2

[SequSpur]

This just jogged my memory...

Didn't we bet last year? Spurs were up 2-0, you had Spurs sweep, I had Pistons winning at least one game ... was it you?

\

[FreshPrince22]

The Suns thought they could win shooting threes against the Spurs, too.

They lost because they couldn't defend. It had nothing to do with offense. And the Pistons don't take that many threes. They're 12th in the league in 3 point attempts per game.

And the fact is, 3 pointers decided the Finals last year. Spurs could hit them, and the Pistons couldn't. It's only fitting that the biggest shot of the series was a three.

[Kori Ellis]

Why can't people comprehend the fact that players aren't affected by their teammates minutes? Rip at 37 minutes per game is not feeling more fatigued because his team's 5th highest in minutes (Sheed), plays more than your average 5th highest. You cannot compare the Pistons starters to ANY other team, because NO team has 5 guys that contribute the same amount. Try this... Rate the Pistons starters from 1-5. Then take the 4th and 5th players and find me a team that is better at those spots. You won't find ANY. We don't have a Rasho or Nazr that don't deserve big minutes. If Big Ben was on the Spurs, you don't think he'd be playing big minutes?

And look at the minutes. The top 2 guys have seen a significant drop in minutes. Chauncey has played slightly more because Lindsey Hunter has been out the entire season. And Sheed has played more, because he was in better shape this year. He still plays less than Duncan, who is playing hurt. No Piston is in the top 32 in minutes played. End of story.

Blahblah.

Okay, then why were Pistons fans ing last season that the starters were playing too many minutes and that's why they were fatigued in the postseason?? This season it's the same amount of minutes (almost). Rip playing 1 minute less isn't a significant decrease.

Spurs fans bring up minutes because last season in the postseason, Pistons fans were all talking about how the Pistons were getting fatigued because of the amount of minutes the starters were playing all season long.

Spurs fans are pointing it out now because this year it's the same situation.

Get it?

Pistons fans are now trying to say that it's okay that the Pistons starters play this amount of minutes because they are "easier" minutes. Pistons fans point out that the Pistons have a high differential so they don't have to work so hard on the court. Now you are pointing out that the Pistons starters are all equal and that means they don't have to work so hard on the court.

WTF are you talking about? Your players should be giving a 100 percent no matter who's on the court and no matter what the score is. There's not "easier" minutes.

[SequSpur]

I'm calling a Spurs sweep right now. If you don't like it then meet me at Military and Zarzamora.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I'm calling a Spurs sweep right now. If you don't like it then meet me at Military and Zarzamora.

Double or nothing?

[FreshPrince22]

Blahblah.

Okay, then why were Pistons fans ing last season that the starters were playing too many minutes and that's why they were fatigued in the postseason?? This season it's the same amount of minutes (almost). Rip playing 1 minute less isn't a significant decrease.

Spurs fans bring up minutes because last season in the postseason, Pistons fans were all talking about how the Pistons were getting fatigued because of the amount of minutes the starters were playing all season long.

Spurs fans are pointing it out now because this year it's the same situation.

Get it?

If 1 minute isn't significant then when aren't you calling for Pop's head for playing Duncan "1 minute" less than Rip?? On an injury no less. Get it?

And I wasn't worried about it last year, either. Tayshaun was the only guy that played too many, and those minutes are down. In the end, it didn't even effect him. His ankle injury in the playoffs is what slowed him down, not regular season minutes.

[Kori Ellis]

If 1 minute isn't significant then when aren't you calling for Pop's head for playing Duncan "1 minute" less than Rip?? On an injury no less. Get it?

What the are you talking about?

[Kori Ellis]

I still don't think you are understanding why Spurs fans are bringing up minutes. Last season, it was the Pistons fans favorite excuse -- The Pistons are fatigued because the starters play so many minutes. This season, the starters play the same amount of minutes and Pistons fans say that fatigue isn't a factor.