Looking to buy an HDTV

[baseline bum]

I'm looking to buy a tv, but I'm not sure which way to go.

I freaking hate LCD, because of the problem with viewing angles. Plasma looks great, but I'm really worried about the burn-in since I want it to play games on. I don't know anything about DLP and similar projection technologies though. They're by far the cheapest, and I was wondering if anyone here has or had a rear-projection HDTV and is/was satisfied with it, and what your opinions are on them vs plasmas.

I'm looking for a 1080p tv that:
- is at least 42"
- has 1080p VGA input
- has 1080p HDMI input
- kicks ass

[MannyIsGod]

If you really want to play games on it a ton and want 1080p with VGA connectivity, then you should probably look at LCDs. The viewing angle was what turned me off to them as well. That and the black levels.

I think Hitachi makes a 1080p Plasma, but I'm not sure if they make it in a 42inch size and I don't know how good it actually is. The burn in issue is probably very overstated. A lot of sites I read advocate a 100 hour break in period, after that point burn in is much less of an issue according to them. I know that I see image retention every so often on mine. IE I had it on a DVD menu for about 10 minutes. I then saw a ghost of the DVD menu for about 2 minutes on solid colored backgrounds but it faded right away. It used to worry me, but I've learned its just part of what Plasma's do, and its not burn in.

I don't know much about DLP and RP though.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Unless you want to wait for the new 50" Panasonics coming out later this year, you're going to have to go up to about a $5000 TV to find 1080p in plasma.

The Sharp Aquos line of LCDs is pretty stout and has several 1080p screens.

Don't know too much about rear projection stuff, if you're going to go that route I'd even suggest looking at going with a true projector and investing to set up a dedicated media room.

Speaking as a plasma owner, the technology still does have some image retention issues, and you could probably burn in images easily if you're not careful.

I try to vary my viewing habits and not watch/play anything for more than one contiguous hour at a time.

For example, one night I left on the whole Sunday night NFL game and that gay ass NBC pea image stuck around for a good week after the game. It wasn't noticeable during watching content but I check my screen weekly with a blank black screen to make sure there's no retention/burn in and it was still there.

It eventually went away, but it's still a concern for plasmas. And I've got about a thousand hours on my TV, so the 100 hour trick, while good in theory (and I'm sure it does help *some*) isn't an absolute.

[baseline bum]

One thing I hate about LCDs is that they'll advertise 1080p or 1080i, and then have some ty resolution like 1280x1024 or 1024x1024, not the true 1920x1080. Why would you recommend LCD for gaming if you don't feel burn-in is a worry on plasma?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Burn in is a worry if you're careless. If you vary your viewing habits and don't roll with any 10 hour gaming marathons, I think you'll be alright.

I watch a lot of sports, which would predispose to some problems with all the tickers and but they usually go away after a few minutes of watching something else.

I would say estimate your time of watching and what you'll be watching.

If it's skewed more towards gaming, I'd say go LCD. If it's skewed more towards watching TV, go plasma.

[MannyIsGod]

Dude, you had the logos after watching a game? That ing blows. I've left it on ESPN for an entire day with nothing.

I guess if you look at it this way, then burn in isn't that big of an issue: Almost every Sunday since I've bought the TV, I've watched probably about 10 hours of TV with some form of ticker or scoreboard and I've had no major image retention or burn in problems.

[baseline bum]

That's ridiculous. A freaking logo burned in for a week after watching a game? Every tv channel in America puts its gay-ass logo on the bottom-right corner of the screen.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Yeah, it's weird. I could watch ESPN all day for an entire weekend, and 20 minutes later the ESPN ticker would be gone.

But that new NBC pea logo with the colors and distinct white outlines stuck around for a week. Granted I was probably only watching 2 hours or so of TV a night, but still. Never had that happen with anything else.

Kinda pisses me off about NBC though. They got the Sunday night football deal and stuck that huge ass ing logo in the bottom left corner. Bugs bother me the most of anything. I don't need a logo taking up a fifth of the damn screen to know what channel I'm on.


bum, that logo is the only one I've ever had a problem with. None of the others (which like you said, all channels have them) ever stuck around for more than a few minutes (which is normal for plasmas).

I don't get why NBC has a normal transparent logo for their other programming, but they have to stick that big ass pea logo on there for Sunday Night Football. 'em.

[MannyIsGod]

When I first got my TV I was paranoid about burn in. A couple of months later and I don't even think about it to be honest. I think the issue is very overstated, but I still think I'd be a bit careful when dealing with gaming on there. And by that I just mean no 10 hour marathons.

[jaffies]

I currently own a rear projection sxrd and it kicks cougar ass!

as far as rp goes, dlp's and lcos have no burn-in problem what-so-ever.
DLP is known as being great for gaming, but the rainbow-effect can be a huge distraction once you spot it. You would have to pony up for one of the higher-end led backlit dlp's in order to avoid it.

I'm looking for a 1080p tv that:
- is at least 42"
- has 1080p VGA input
- has 1080p HDMI input
- kicks ass

plasmas with 1080p are over 5G's , but if you have the money, send me some and then buy a tv. They have the best black levels (aside from crt), and many of the better ones have some of the best image quality around. I think glare is the biggest prob with plasmas, so that might be something to think about if you have a well-lit room.

flat lcd's are mostly now 1080p, a lot of 'em with 1080p vga. I don't consider the viewing angles a huge roadblock anymore as most lcd's will do just fine, unless you are sitting on the ter and trying to watch Good Times from the restroom. But as Manny said, the black levels are a bad, still the worst of all hd technologies.

rear projection is great, if you have the room for it, but hey are continuing to get thinner and thinner (JVC is gonna roll one out that's 11 inches deep - hide your chick!) While flat is really sexy, this is what I would recomend. Great for gaming, no burn-in, better angles than flat lcd, some of the higher end lcos's have black levels that on par with plasma, fast response time, and you don't have to spend an arm and a to upgrade to 1080p. Although do be very careful because while several of these tv's have 1080 lines of resolution, a lot of 'em DO NOT accept 1080p signals, they simply take a 1080i signal and up-convert it to 1080p.

I as happy as a pig in with my TV, I just don't know about audio.

[johnsmith]

Any news on when television broadcasts will actually be in 1080p?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

2-3 more years. About the only stuff in 1080p right now are HD video and game consoles.

[01Snake]

Why is todays game not on HD?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Any news on when television broadcasts will actually be in 1080p?

everything has to be by 2009. nonHDTV's will be useless then. the only thing they'll be used for is video games, dvd and vhs playback. i'm not sure how cable tv programming is being effected.

[johnsmith]

everything has to be by 2009. nonHDTV's will be useless then. the only thing they'll be used for is video games, dvd and vhs playback. i'm not sure how cable tv programming is being effected.

Everything has to be digital by 2009, not 1080p. Furthermore, the original date was at the end of 2006 but only if 85% of household televisions in America were able to receive the "upgrade". Obviously, we didn't hit the 85%, and it remains to be seen if we will by the end of 2009.

Finally, old TV's will not be useless. You can and will be able to buy decoder boxes that make the digital signal playable on an analog set.

[johnsmith]

What makes you guys say rear projection is good? I thought the picture washing out at off angles was more of a problem on rear projection than LCDs. I've procrastinated so long on buying a TV. I was thinking the LCDs were best for gaming and sports. I watched a plasma the other day during a basketball game and I was annoyed by the tracers following the ball as it was passed around.

I bought a 52 inch Sony Rear projection HD last February when prices for LCD's and Plasma's were still too high in my opinion.

I got the TV for 2,000 and I couldn't be happier with it. It has an outstanding picture both HD and Standard and can be seen just fine at angles. It's also the perfect size for the room I have it in.

I would buy the same TV if I had to do it again just based on wanting that size of a TV and the price of it relative to the same size TV in a plasma or LCD. Plus, I don't like the look of a TV when it's mounted on the wall (I don't know why, I just don't like that).

In my opinion, if you are going over 50 inches, a rear projection 14 inch deep TV is still the best option.


Having said that, I'm now in the market for a 32-37 inch TV for the upstairs family room and I'm going to go LCD for that as the value is much better now then it was a year ago.



In the end, I think it's about value for your buck and the further prices drop on LCD's and Plasma's the better the value.

[johnsmith]

What makes you guys say rear projection is good? I thought the picture washing out at off angles was more of a problem on rear projection than LCDs. I've procrastinated so long on buying a TV. I was thinking the LCDs were best for gaming and sports. I watched a plasma the other day during a basketball game and I was annoyed by the tracers following the ball as it was passed around.

Oh, and when you finally do getting around to buying that TV, don't look at the prices of the same TV six months later. It'll just piss you off.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Everything has to be digital by 2009, not 1080p. Furthermore, the original date was at the end of 2006 but only if 85% of household televisions in America were able to receive the "upgrade". Obviously, we didn't hit the 85%, and it remains to be seen if we will by the end of 2009.

Finally, old TV's will not be useless. You can and will be able to buy decoder boxes that make the digital signal playable on an analog set.

this should split all the hairs that need to be split.
Getting to February 2009: Implementing the Digital TV Transition

Now that President Bush has signed the Deficit Reduction Act which includes the Digital Television Transition and Public Safety Act (DTV Act), a clearer picture of the digital television transition is developing. The purpose of the DTV Act is to prepare US consumers for the end of free, over-the-air, analog broadcasts. Mainly, this is to be accomplished by subsidizing the purchase of digital-to-analog converter boxes that will extend the life of current TVs into the age of digital TV broadcasting. Additionally, the law allows the proceeds from the auction of returned analog TV spectrum to be used for other national communications priorities.

Below is a quick outline of the timeline for implementing the new law and the requirements it makes on various government bodies -– and consumers -– to end analog television broadcasts in the US on February 17, 2009.

2006

September 30, 2006 Before this date the FCC is to assess and deposit in the Treasury extraordinary fees for licenses totaling $10,000,000 as offsetting receipts.

October 2006 Although not an explicit mandate of the DTV Act, Congress expects the National Telecommunications and Information Administration(1) to issue rules for a digital-to-analog converter box subsidy program within nine months, when Fiscal Year 2007 begins. The rules would cover: 1) the content and distribution of coupon request forms and coupons; 2) consumer redemption of, and retailer reimbursement for, the coupons; 3) the types of converter boxes that shall be eligible for purchase with a coupon; 4) certification, education, and auditing of retailers involved in the program; and 5) consumer and retailer appeals.(2)

October 2006 – June 30, 2008 The NTIA may borrow money from the US Treasury to begin implementing various programs mandated by the DTV Act.(3)

October 2006 -- September 2008 The NTIA is to make payments of up to $30 million to reimburse the Metropolitan Television Alliance(4) for costs incurred in the design and deployment of a temporary digital television broadcast system to ensure that New York City area broadcasters can provide the area with digital TV.

October 2006 –- September 2009 The NTIA is to make payments of no more than $43.5 million to implement the ENHANCE 911 Act of 2004.(5)

October 2006 -- September 2010 Working with the Department of Homeland Security the NTIA will establish and implement a $1 billion grant program to assist public safety agencies in the acquisition of, deployment of, or training for the use of interoperable communications systems.

October 2006 -- September 2012 The NTIA is to make payments of no more than $156 million to implement a unified national alert system. The NTIA is to use $50 million to implement a tsunami warning and coastal vulnerability program.

2007

October 2007 -- September 2009 The NTIA is to make payments of up to $10 million to implement and administer a program through which eligible low-power television stations(6) may receive compensation toward the cost of the purchase of a digital-to-analog conversion devices that enable them to convert incoming digital TV signals of their corresponding full-power television stations to analog format for transmission on the low-power television stations’ analog channels. Requests for such compensation must be made on or before February 17, 2009. Priority compensation is to be given to non-profit corporations and stations that serve rural areas of fewer than 10,000 viewers.

2008

January 1, 2008 -- March 31, 2009 US households may obtain $40 coupons towards purchase of digital-to-analog converter boxes by making a request. All coupons expire 3 months after issuance. The NTIA is to ensure that each requesting household receives, via the United States Postal Service, no more than two coupons.

January 28, 2008 The FCC must conduct the auction of the licenses for recovered analog spectrum, commencing the bidding no later than this date, and is to deposit the proceeds of the auction in the US Treasury no later than June 30, 2008.

June 30, 2008 By this date, the FCC is to have deposited in the Treasury proceeds from the auction of spectrum currently used for analog TV broadcasts.

October 2008 -– September 2009 The NTIA is to make payments of no more than $65 million to implement a program to reimburse rural low-power television stations for upgrading to digital TV technology. Such reimbursements shall be issued to eligible stations no earlier than October 1, 2010. Priority compensation will be given to non-profit corporations and stations that serve rural areas of fewer than 10,000 viewers.

2009

February 17, 2009 Analog TV broadcasts from full-power TV stations in the US ends. Low-power stations, including Class A stations, may continue broadcasting in analog format after this day, subject to future decisions by the FCC on how to complete the digital television transition for such stations.

February 18, 2009 By this date the FCC must require that all TV broadcasting occur only on channels between channels 2 and 36, inclusive, or 38 and 51, inclusive (between frequencies 54 and 698 megahertz, inclusive). If low-power stations want to be compensated for digital-to-analog conversion devices, they must make request by end of day.

September 30, 2009 On the last day of Fiscal Year 2009, the Secretary of the Treasury will transfer $7.363 billion from the Digital Television Transition and Public Safety Fund to the general fund of the Treasury.

Background: The nations 1,600 television stations are converting from traditional analog technology to a digital television format. Digital television (DTV) is a new, more efficient technology for transmitting and receiving broadcast television signals. But DTV signals are not compatible with today’s analog TV sets in most American homes. Under the Telecommunications Act of 1996, the amount of spectrum given to television station owners was doubled. The policy rationale for this was to enable the stations to transition US consumers to digital TV without interruption of analog broadcasts. But after ten years of digital TV broadcasts, only a small number of US households have made the switch to DTV, delaying the return of valuable spectrum that could be used by emergency officials and auctioned to offset federal deficit spending.


Getting to February 2009: Outstanding DTV Transition Issues

On February 1, 2006, the House of Representatives, by a vote of 216-214 approved the Budget Reconciliation conference report which includes the Digital Television Transition and Public Safety Act (DTV Act). With this final Congressional action setting a date certain for the digital TV transition, the work of implementing the legislation falls mainly in the National Telecommunications and Information Administration. But unresolved in the DTV Act are a number of issues that will determine the success of the investment Americans are making in the transition.

At their first open meeting of the new year, both FCC Commissioners and staff identified the DTV transition as a major priority for 2006. Anticipating the passage of the DTV Act, the Commission reported on the status of the DTV transition to date. Approximately 90% of US TV stations are currently airing digital TV broadcast and approximately 95% of stations have chosen their permanent digital television channel. Completing the task of deciding final channel placements for all digital TV stations was identified as a major priority by FCC Chairman Kevin Martin, Commissioner Jonathan Adelstein and Media Bureau Chief Donna Gregg. Commissioner Adelstein identified additional issues that must be addressed to make the transition a success including the public interest obligations of digital TV broadcasters, the disclosure requirements of licensees, educating consumers about the transition, and the sale of analog TV sets.

Public Interest Obligations and Disclosure

Because of the enhanced capability of digital television technology, the FCC first asked for public comment on the public interest obligations of digital television broadcasters in July 1995.(1) Since that time, a blue-ribbon Presidential advisory committee has reviewed and made recommendations on broadcasters’ public interest obligations,(2) while the FCC has opened a proceeding to examine the Advisory Committee’s recommendations and initiated a proceeding on the disclosure requirements of broadcasters.(3) Responding in part to this long delay, the FCC’s own Consumer Advisory Committee, appointed by FCC Chairman Kevin Martin, asked the Commission to complete these proceedings by May 18, 2006.

In addition, in a February 2005 decision on whether or not to require cable operators to carry all of digital TV stations’ multicast channel (see discussion of multicast must carry below), the FCC ruled:



Nothing in this Order diminishes the Commission's commitment to completing action on the multiple open proceedings on localism and on the public interest obligations of digital broadcasters. We believe the public interest and localism proceedings are essential components of the Commission's efforts to complete the transition to digital television. The Commission intends to move forward on these decisions within the next few months and complete action in these dockets by the end of the year.(4)



To date, the Commission has not acted to define the public interest obligations of digital broadcasters.(5)

Consumer Education

The DTV Act allows the NTIA to spend up to $5 million educating consumers about the transition to digital TV and the availability of converter box subsidies. An earlier, House version of the DTV Act included a three-part consumer education plan:

1) the NTIA and FCC would make public aware of a) the deadline for analog TV broadcasts, b) consumers' options after the deadline and c) the converter box program;

2) television set manufacturers would be required to warn analog TV consumers of the coming digital TV transition with warning labels on sets sold in the US; and

3) television broadcasters would have to air a PSA campaign while cable and satellite would have to include notices about the transition in their monthly bills.

These provisions were dropped in the final version of the DTV Act, but FCC Commissioner Adelstein and Media Bureau Chief Gregg admitted there’s lots more to be done to alert consumers about the coming end of analog TV. The FCC’s current educational campaign has an online home at http://www.dtv.gov/

DTV Tuner Requirement

In early November 2005, the FCC set March 1, 2007 as the date for which all TV receivers sold in the US must include the capability to receive digital television.(6) But in the same order the FCC highlighted that consumer awareness of whether a television can receive off-the-air DTV signals or only off-the-air analog signals is critical to ensuring that consumer expectations are met. The Commission promised to move swiftly to address point-of-sale consumer education saying that it would further consumer education if manufacturers and retailers would provide marketing information to consumers and/or clearly label new television sets. In the interim, the FCC encouraged manufacturers and retailers to clearly label and identify the tuning capabilities of new TV sets regarding whether or not specific models are able to receive off-the-air digital television signals.

Digital Television and Cable

Congress expects that the February 17, 2009, firm deadline will have little impact on most television households. Only consumers relying on over-the-air broadcasts should need to participate in the converter-box program and just under 15% of US television households relied exclusively on over-the-air transmission as of June 2004, according to the FCC. By contrast, the FCC reports that 92.3 million households, representing just over 85%, subscribed to cable or satellite TV. But pay TV subscribership may raise as many issues as it may solve, at least for viewers of smaller broadcast stations.(7)

The House version of the DTV Act included extensive provisions allowing for cable and satellite operators to convert broadcasters’ digital TV signals to analog signals. These provisions, however, were stripped from the bill before final passage.

The National Cable & Telecommunications Association, cable’s lobbying organization, sees the DTV transition affecting cable customers who have sets that are not hooked up to set-top boxes. The downconversion language in the House bill would have allowed cable operators (after the transition) to carry an analog TV signal "in lieu of" a digital one. The purpose of this was to help out the millions of consumers who won't have a digital TV when the transaction occurs.

The cable industry believes that as a result of the downconversion language not being included in the legislation, cable operators have the option to: 1) carry only stations’ digital broadcast signals or 2) carry a downconverted analog signal in addition to the digital signal. If cable operators choose to carry only the digital broadcast signal, and not a second analog signal, local broadcasters will potentially lose market share because their signal will not be viewed on TVs that don't have a set-top box.

The National Association of Broadcasters hailed the outcome on Capitol Hill. The NAB’s position throughout had been that degradation of digital-TV signals should be done by the consumer, not the cable company.

Moreover, the NAB has identified multicast must carry as its number one policy priority. In an order noted above, the FCC voted 4-1 in February 2005 to ban TV stations from demanding cable carriage of multiple DTV services, affirming a 2001 ruling that cable is obligated to carry just one service per station and nothing else after broadcasters complete their transition to digital-only transmission. The FCC also voted 5-0 that cable does not have to carry both analog and digital services of local TV stations during the transition. In the 4-1 vote, only then-Commissioner Kevin Martin dissented saying the decision provided no incentive for broadcasters to invest in and develop local news, local weather, local sports, coverage of local elections and government proceedings, and foreign language programming because they would not be guaranteed coverage on local cable systems. In addition to now-Chairman Martin, two commissioners indicated their votes could have been reversed – if the Commission had first addressed the public interest obligations of digital TV broadcasters.

In April 2005, the National Association of Broadcasters asked the FCC to reconsider the February 2005 decision.(8) No action has been taken yet. But it is important to note that two different FCC's and now Congress have rejected a multicasting mandate.



Continue to Getting to February 2009: Implementing the Digital TV Transition

Notes:
1) See http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Mass_Medi...5/fcc95315.txt 2) See Charting the Digital Future, the final report of the President’s Advisory Committee on the Public Interest Obligations of Digital Television Broadcasters (http://www.benton.org/publibrary/piac/report.html).

3) See Standardized and Enhanced Disclosure Requirements for Television Broadcast Licensee Public Interest Obligations (MM 20 Docket No. 00–168; FCC-05-27A1)

4) Second Report and Order and First Order on Reconsideration In the Matter of: Carriage of Digital Television Broadcast Signals: Amendments to Part 76 of the Commission’s Rules (CS Docket No. 98-120) (Adopted February 10, 2005)

5) For more see Citizen’s Guide to Public Interest Obligations see http://www.benton.org/pioguide/publicstandard.html.

6) On July 1, 2004, the tuner requirement was applied to 50% of large sets (screen sizes 36" and larger), and last July (July 1, 2005), the tuner requirement was applied to all large sets and to 50% of mid-size sets (25"- 36"). Beginning March 1, 2006, DTV tuners will be required in all mid-size sets as well.

7) Major network affiliates likely have retransmission consent agreements with cable operators already.


8) See http://www.nab.org/newsroom/pressrel...riage42105.pdf

[johnsmith]

^^^Didn't we already go over this?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

everything has to be by 2009. nonHDTV's will be useless then. the only thing they'll be used for is video games, dvd and vhs playback. i'm not sure how cable tv programming is being effected.

Everything has to be *digital* by 2009. Not 1080p. There's a difference, and if you don't know it you shouldn't be trying to post in this thread about it.

Non-HD tvs won't be useless by then. Plenty of people today have non-HD sets that they watch digital programming on.

[SequSpur]

I'm not reading all that.

yeah, really...

can we get a cliffnote version... wtf?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

2-3 more years. About the only stuff in 1080p right now are HD video and game consoles.

Try more like 5-10.

[johnsmith]

Everything has to be *digital* by 2009. Not 1080p. There's a difference, and if you don't know it you shouldn't be trying to post in this thread about it.

Non-HD tvs won't be useless by then. Plenty of people today have non-HD sets that they watch digital programming on.

I already said that. Damn, won't someone listen to JohnSmith for once?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I already said that. Damn, won't someone listen to JohnSmith for once?

Who?

[smeagol]

I bought a 52 inch Sharp Aquos. It will be here in February.