The Price of American Ignorance

[Nbadan]

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. The functionaries of every government have propensities to command at will the liberty and property of their cons uents. There is no safe deposit for these but with the people themselves; nor can they be safe with them without information. Where the press is free, and every man able to read, all is safe."

- Thomas Jefferson

When asked to identify the three branches of government, one in five American adults responds with Republican, Democrat and Independent. Thirty- five percent of those polled think the United States Cons ution makes English our official language. Nearly a third of Americans polled can't name the vice president of the United States.

But maybe these numbers are not quite as shocking as they first appear. In a free society, people can choose not to know. It is a luxury a wealthy and technologically advanced country affords its citizens. Yet we need to ask: how much 'not knowing' can the world afford?

Consider for a moment the headlines and news stories of the past year alone. In December Iran held an "International Holocaust Conference" largely for the purpose of denying the Holocaust ever happened. In Japan the Prime Minister claimed there is "no evidence to prove coercion" of the women forced into sex slavery by the Japanese army during World War II. At the International AIDS conference in Toronto, South Africa's health minister questioned the science of AIDS treatment and promoted a diet of garlic, lemon and beetroot as a viable alternative to anti-retroviral drugs now in use. Here at home, the Environmental Protection Agency ignored the advice of its own scientists (and an expert advisory panel) that fine-particle soot in the air be reduced as a proven human health risk. Next month, outside Cincinnati, the $25 million Creation Museum will open featuring a diorama of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.... happily co-existing with dinosaurs, whose fossil remains must be accounted for in some manner. Meanwhile, a recent Newsweek poll found 39 percent of those surveyed believed the theory of evolution is "not well- supported" by evidence.

We must all beware the very real and understandable human tendency to ignore or subvert facts, and findings of science, that discomfort us for reasons of ideology, politics, religion or personal taste.

This willful ignorance is not a simple matter of people just having the wrong facts. Science constantly gets it wrong, as for instance when I was in medical school, and was taught that peptic ulcers were the result of stress and too much stomach acid. Then in 1982 two Australian scientists announced peptic ulcers were really caused through infection by spiral-shaped bacteria. It was many years before the medical establishment fully accepted this theory — and if you had a peptic ulcer during this time, I'm sorry, you probably suffered needlessly until someone thought to give you antibiotics.

Ignorance is the enemy of freedom and democracy. If you don't know the facts, you can't make an informed free choice, and you detract from others' collective capacity to do so. I think it's time society demanded more of those who claim citizenship while refusing to equip themselves for its responsibities.

Maybe we need a Stupidity Tax, and maybe it's time the vote was limited to those who have a ing clue what they're voting on.

[Wild Cobra]

Ignorance is the enemy of freedom and democracy. If you don't know the facts, you can't make an informed free choice, and you detract from others' collective capacity to do so. I think it's time society demanded more of those who claim citizenship while refusing to equip themselves for its responsibities.

I completely agree. How do you educate liberals with facts however? Isn't truth to a liberal like kryptonite to superman?

Maybe we need a Stupidity Tax, and maybe it's time the vote was limited to those who have a ing clue what they're voting on.

I am one that believes we need a test of sorts to allow voting. However, I have no idea how to implement such a test that would be considered fair.

I would like to limit the first amendment such that anyone who claims words like "Journalist," "Do entary," and "News" must use verifiable facts. Otherwise, it must be called something else. Again though, how do you implement such rules with a reasonable degree of fairness? The media distorts the facts regularly. Even people who think they are informed are just filled with propaganda.

[boutons_]

"Even people who think they are informed are just filled with propaganda."

Like people suckered by Swift-boaters,
WMD/Iraq,
al-Quaida/Iraq,
smoking gun/mushroom cloud,
yellowcake,
aluminum tubes,
"fair and balanced",
slam dunk,
pervasive widespread voting fraud,
secret national energy plans,
condoms don't work,
condoms don't prevern AID,
creationism,
1000+ Repug subpoenas rained on Clinton's Exec,
and all the other lies the right-wing/REpugs/neo- s have been spewing for years?

[xrayzebra]

"Even people who think they are informed are just filled with propaganda."

Like people suckered by Swift-boaters,
WMD/Iraq,
al-Quaida/Iraq,
smoking gun/mushroom cloud,
yellowcake,
aluminum tubes,
"fair and balanced",
slam dunk,
pervasive widespread voting fraud,
secret national energy plans,
condoms don't work,
condoms don't prevern AID,
creationism,
1000+ Repug subpoenas rained on Clinton's Exec,
and all the other lies the right-wing/REpugs/neo- s have been spewing for years?

Kerry, wounded Viet Nam war veteran. You "left" that
one out.

[smeagol]

Ignorance is the enemy of freedom and democracy.

So are you.

[Wild Cobra]

"Even people who think they are informed are just filled with propaganda."

Like people suckered by Swift-boaters,

WMD/Iraq,

Small quan ies were found. The concensus was that Saddam still had some. He never did account for what we knew he did have from prior inspections.

al-Quaida/Iraq,

There were in fact training grounds in Iraq. There was in fact some communications. What people mix up is that Saddam had no connection to 9/11, so they try to say he had no Al-Qaeda connection...

smoking gun/mushroom cloud,

You're losing me. I forget the quote, but it does happen if one sets of a Nuke!

yellowcake,

Yellowcake was found in large quan ies, some enriched. As for Niger, it was Joe Wilson who was the liar. Niger representative have verified the attempt to buy yellowcake!

aluminum tubes,

Your point? There was correct intelligence that tubes were bought. However, the size and strength were unknown for initial reports. It was later found out that they were the right size for rockets!

"fair and balanced",

Again, your point? If you listen to the explanation, they are the balance to the left. Their commentators are primarily conservative, and the news remains better centered than the mainstream. If you ever watch their news, at the end of a viewpoint, they do tell the opposing viewpoint!

slam dunk,

Good ol' George Tennant. Now he even says it meant something else. Who believes him when his book is shown to be wrong in several other waus.

pervasive widespread voting fraud,

Yep, the democraps continue to cheat. Notice that of all the convictions over the elections, nearly all are democrats?

secret national energy plans,

No answer. I wasn't part of the secret sessions. They could be harmless, their could be something underhanded. Unfounded conspiracy theories might be causing unnecessary harm!

condoms don't work,

You believe they do? Sure, 98+% of the time they do, but it only takes ones. They are not 100% effective, even when used 100% right!

condoms don't prevern AID,

They don't prevent the spread of HIV 100% of the time! Even when they don't break, they have microscopic pores that are too small for sperm to pass through, but large enough for a small percentage of any disease to pass through. They only reduce the risk substantially. Not eliminate it.

creationism,

I'm sorry you have no faith. I pity such people. Even when wrong, faith is generally a good thing. Still, don't forget intelligent design. Remember. I don't just create a painting if I painting. I take some pigments, a surface, and a brush to create a painting. However, I use them as tools.

1000+ Repug subpoenas rained on Clinton's Exec,
and all the other lies the right-wing/REpugs/neo- s have been spewing for years?

Both parties lie. That's what politicians do. I would challenge that number, and say it isn't anything like the democraps are doing now, and what happened to Scooter Libby.

[Nbadan]

Small quan ies were found. The concensus was that Saddam still had some. He never did account for what we knew he did have from prior inspections.

Not quite the 'immenent threat' we were led to believe.

[Nbadan]

There were in fact training grounds in Iraq. There was in fact some communications. What people mix up is that Saddam had no connection to 9/11, so they try to say he had no Al-Qaeda connection...

There was a training camp, unfortunately it was on the Kurd-controlled area of Iraq.

[Nbadan]

Yellowcake was found in large quan ies, some enriched. As for Niger, it was Joe Wilson who was the liar. Niger representative have verified the attempt to buy yellowcake!

Yellow-cake is a industrial bi-product, so the fact that some would be found in Iraq is not surprising, as far as enriching the uranium, no applicable tubes were ever found that could have been used to enrich the uranium.

[Nbadan]

Your point? There was correct intelligence that tubes were bought. However, the size and strength were unknown for initial reports. It was later found out that they were the right size for rockets!

The U.S.'s own energy dept had long ruled out these tubes as anything other than tubes for rockets long before the propaganda by the wing-nuts spread that these tubes may have been used to enrich uranium.

[Nbadan]

Again, your point? If you listen to the explanation, they are the balance to the left. Their commentators are primarily conservative, and the news remains better centered than the mainstream. If you ever watch their news, at the end of a viewpoint, they do tell the opposing viewpoint!

Studies have shown that FAUX News reports less on Iraq than any other U.S. station and when they do report, you can bet that they aren't giving war critics the same amount of face-time as war supporters.

[Nbadan]

Yep, the democraps continue to cheat. Notice that of all the convictions over the elections, nearly all are democrats?

What convictions are those? Repeated independent studies have shown that John Kerry won 04 and Al Gore won in 00.

[Nbadan]

Gotta love Mad mag...

[Nbadan]

Oh my...(corporate donors, how appropriate)

[Wild Cobra]

Not quite the 'immenent threat' we were led to believe.

If you find what was said in it's full context, then it reads a bit different.

[Wild Cobra]

There was a training camp, unfortunately it was on the Kurd-controlled area of Iraq.

There were several. That was the only one reported by the leftist media I bet.

[Wild Cobra]

Yellow-cake is a industrial bi-product, so the fact that some would be found in Iraq is not surprising, as far as enriching the uranium, no applicable tubes were ever found that could have been used to enrich the uranium.

More than 500 tons of an industrial byproduct? 1.8 tons of partially enriched uranium was also found. You should read this story led The Uranium Joe Wilson Didn't Mention. Works great in a breeder reactor to make weapons grade plutonium.

What is it an industrial byproduct of? My God... That's the first time I heard that B.S. Now depleted uranium is a byproduct of the enrichment process. Yellowcake is the natural ore, from the earth, that uranium comes from. It's about 80% uranium. Just how is a natural ore an industrial byproduct? Are we getting ignorant?

Yellowcake is uranium ore.

As for the tubes, other reports say the equipmemnt for enrichment went to Syria. Iraq somehow managed to enrich 1.8 tons of it you know. Check out this article led New evidence: Saddam's WMD in Lebanon; Weapons transferred to Syria before war, then to Bekaa Valley, and an article led Saddam's 500-ton Uranium Stockpile.

Now if you have the time, I suggest you follow a few links from this article out of the National Security Archives led The Senate Intelligence Committee Report on Prewar Intelligence. That should put to rest what the senate knew. It comes from a link led CIA Whites Out Controversial Estimate on Iraq Weapons; Main Subject of Today's Senate Intelligence Report Remains Largely Secret;.

[Nbadan]

More than 500 tons of an industrial byproduct? 1.8 tons of partially enriched uranium was also found. You should read this story led The Uranium Joe Wilson Didn't Mention. Works great in a breeder reactor to make weapons grade plutonium.

What is it an industrial byproduct of? My God... That's the first time I heard that B.S. Now depleted uranium is a byproduct of the enrichment process. Yellowcake is the natural ore, from the earth, that uranium comes from. It's about 80% uranium. Just how is a natural ore an industrial byproduct? Are we getting ignorant?

Yellowcake is uranium ore.

It's a commodity...

Yellowcake is milled uranium oxide, known to chemists as U3O8. When uranium ore comes out of the mine, it actually contains fairly little of the precious radioactive element. Though some mines in Canada, the world's leading uranium producer, are now yielding ore that contains 20 percent uranium, lower purity levels are more typical. Ore that contains less than 1 percent uranium is not unusual.

Despite all the hubbub over Saddam Hussein's efforts to buy yellowcake, the stuff is by no means a rare commodity. Worldwide production is currently around 64,000 tons per year, and that's sure to rise as Central Asian nations like Kazakhstan begin to expand their uranium-mining industries. (By comparison, about 45,000 tons of tungsten, vital to the steel industry, is produced annually.) The compe ion has depressed yellowcake prices just a tad in recent months; a pound now costs about $10.90, down a dime from what it was trading for this spring.

[Nbadan]

As for the tubes, other reports say the equipmemnt for enrichment went to Syria. Iraq somehow managed to enrich 1.8 tons of it you know. Check out this article led New evidence: Saddam's WMD in Lebanon; Weapons transferred to Syria before war, then to Bekaa Valley, and an article led Saddam's 500-ton Uranium Stockpile.

Syria has it's own stockpiles of yellow-cake uranium and can produce chemical weapons, so why would they need Iraqi WMDs, especially given the short shelve-life of these weapons and the high costs associated to destroy them.

[Nbadan]

Now if you have the time, I suggest you follow a few links from this article out of the National Security Archives led The Senate Intelligence Committee Report on Prewar Intelligence. That should put to rest what the senate knew. It comes from a link led CIA Whites Out Controversial Estimate on Iraq Weapons; Main Subject of Today's Senate Intelligence Report Remains Largely Secret;.

And can I suggest you read up on the OSP? Linky

[Wild Cobra]

The U.S.'s own energy dept had long ruled out these tubes as anything other than tubes for rockets long before the propaganda by the wing-nuts spread that these tubes may have been used to enrich uranium.

You know, some mistakes are made. The timing is dubious at best. If you read this 12/5/03 article led Iraq’s Aluminum Tubes: Separating Fact from Fiction you find that initial assessments were that the tubes requisitioned were for enrichment purposes. It wasn't till sometime in 2002 I think that some of the intelligence community changed that assessment, and not all of them. The order from China was for 60,000 tubes 81 mm by 900 mm made from 7075-T6 aluminum. The DOE said these were incorrect dimensions for centrifuges. Still, a paragraph from the link is; "Many of these scientists and experts were deeply knowledgeable not only of gas centrifuges but also of the Iraqi gas centrifuge program. They rejected the CIA view that the tubes were specifically intended for use in a centrifuge, although many agreed that the tubes could have been modified for use in an inefficient centrifuge. Some gas centrifuge experts believed that the centrifuge could work poorly in a cascade." It was the CIA that didn't believe them, and gave president Bush any faulty information. The fact that the tubes could still be used should be considered shouldn't it?

You might also want to refer to this article led Denial and Deception: Iraq's Aluminum Tubes and the Case for War dated 2/12/06. This report includes fact that the tubes were smaller than what Iraq previously used, but that they were still "marginally large enough" to be used as a centrifuge. Therefore, it is safe to assume that Saddam might be purposely be trying mislead the usage of the tubes!

It's hard to determine what the plans for the tubes really were. The fact that they were ordered with specifications of the more expensive chromate anodization, makes many experts to believe the purpose was nuclear. This is because the primary purpose of chromate anodization is for bonding purposes. Perfect for the centrifuge application. However, they were the size of rocket parts.

Now why was George Tenet let go? Could it be:

Slam Dunk
The Valarie Plame/Joe Wilson incident under his watch
Withholding the DOE's questioning of the tubes.
A close friend of his was killed on 9/11. Maybe his vengeance got the best of him?

As far as I know, president Bush did pretty good with the information he had at hand.

[Wild Cobra]

Studies have shown that FAUX News reports less on Iraq than any other U.S. station and when they do report, you can bet that they aren't giving war critics the same amount of face-time as war supporters.

LOL... unnamed studies...

Besides, Fox reports what the others don't. You expect them to be a lame as the others? Only report the death and destruction?

[Nbadan]

It was the CIA that didn't believe them, and gave president Bush any faulty information. The fact that the tubes could still be used should be considered shouldn't it?

That all depends on which assessment your talking about, but this is what the DoE was saying...

Based on the reported specifications, the tubes could be used to manufacture gas centrifuge rotor cylinders for uranium enrichment. However, our analysis indicates that the specified tube diameter, which is half that of the centrifuge machine Iraq successfully tested in 1990, is only marginally large enough for practical centrifuge applications, and other specifications are not consistent with a gas centrifuge end use. Moreover, the quan y being sought suggests preparations for large-scale production of centrifuge machines, for which we have not seen related procurement efforts - and the tubes’ specifications suggest a centrifuge design quite different from any Iraq is known to have. Thus, we assess that this procurement activity more likely supports a different application. ... While the gas centrifuge application cannot be ruled out, we assess that the procurement activity more likely supports a different application, such as conventional ordnance production. For example, the tube specifications and quan y appear to be generally consistent with their use as launch tubes for man-held anti-armor rockets or as tactical rocket casings. Also, the manner in which the procurement is being handled (multiple procurement agents, quotes obtained from multiple suppliers in diverse locations, and price haggling) seems to better match our expectations for a conventional Iraqi military buy than a major purchase for a clandestine weapons-of-mass destruction program. However, we have not identified an Iraq-specific, military, or other noncentrifuge application that precisely matches the tube specifications. [page 6]

Wikipedia

[Wild Cobra]

What convictions are those? Repeated independent studies have shown that John Kerry won 04 and Al Gore won in 00.

Really? I haven't seen a single bipartisan study saying such a thing. I have seen such propaganda from pundits however.

I'll tell you what. Start with this article led VOTE FRAUD, INTIMIDATION & SUPPRESSION IN THE 2004 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION. You will find that nearly all confirmed incidents are from democrat operatives. Some have been prosecuted since. To my knowledge, not a single republican operative has been prosecuted. You don't hear about these in the news because the are democrats. If the were republicans, you can be sure it would be shoved down our throats. Note that there is explanations of all the alleged republican wrongdoing that makes perfect sense. It's just democrats trying to manipulate the law. Demonrats leaving demoncraps. Being Lawful-Evil.

Some factual incidents:

Page 22; Five Democrat Operatives In Milwaukee Charged With Slashing Tires Of Republican Vans On Morning Of Election Day

Page 25; Court Issues Injunction Against Democrat Operatives Targeting Ohio Voters With Phone Calls Providing Deceptive Information to Voters

Page 26; Court Issues Injunction Against Democratic National Committee Ordering It To Stop Distributing Intimidating Materials To Republican Volunteers In Florida

Page 27; Intimidating And Misleading Phone Calls To GOP Volunteers Made By President Bill Clinton And DNC General Counsel Joe Sandler In Florida

Page 28; Court Orders MoveOn.org To Cease Voter Intimidation And Harassment In Ohio

Page 28; Ohio Court Ordered Democrat Polling Place Challengers To Remove Deceptive Arm Bands and Badges

Page 29; Violence Against Republican Volunteers In Philadelphia On Election Day

Page 29; Union-Coordinated Violence And Intimidation Against Republican
Campaign Offices And Volunteers

Page 30; Violence And Other Incidents of Intimidation
The list goes on for specific state investivations. On page 38, Colorado has several ACORN workers charged.

Funny how ACORN is a primary offender. How much does the media tell us of this? Don't we only hear how republicans are 'supposable' manipulating the system with no evidence, yet actual convictions against AVORN go unreported. For a quick link, go to the writup on them through Wikipedia.

Here's another interesting section starting on page 59; NAACP, ACORN And Other Third-Party Groups Linked To Thousands Of Fraudulent And Su ious Voter Registrations In Ohio

The list goes on and on. Don't you get it. The democrats cheated. They know they cheated. They still lost!

If you really want, I might be able to find the links to the list of exhibits at the end.

Now here is another link that tries to show how republicans stole the election led Ohio 2004 Presidential Elections: Results, Summary, Charts and Spreadsheets. I find this image interesting near the bottom:



Isn't a major argument that the electronic machines are rigged? Well I agree. In favor of democrats! The cheating was for senator Kerry, not for president Bush.

Take some time and look at the statewide voting statistics.

As for the 'flipping' of the votes, isn't it just as likely that a democrat operative did such a thing and made a mistake? I find that more likely by the indictments and convictions surrounding voting. Why do unsubstantiated allegations against republicans get so much traction when they are almost always based on su ions alone. No proof. Democrats however have been proven to engage in voter fraud!

[Wild Cobra]

And can I suggest you read up on the OSP? Linky

OK, a list of allegations. Any proof?