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Francis Anthony Brickowski
To ride the momentum of the PG thread...list your top 10
1. Rasho Nesterovic (there, I said it)
Francis Anthony Brickowski
Kareem
Wilt
Hakeem
Shaq
D-Rob
Russell
Moses
Lanier
Ewing
Walton
Mcadoo, Dikembe, Reed, and Zo honorable mention
Last edited by mardigan; 08-09-2007 at 02:01 PM.
Yeah, remember when Rasho ducked just in time so as not to get in the photograph of Amare's Hammertime Poster Dunk? That was cool.To ride the momentum of the PG thread...list your top 10
1. Rasho Nesterovic (there, I said it)
dirk!!!!!!!!
1. Bill "I don't sign autographs" Russell (T-1st, Rasho Nesterovic)
2. Wilt "Mr. 20,000" Chamberlain
3. Lou Kareem Abdul-Alcindor-Jabbar
4. Moses Malone
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Shaquille O'neal
7. David Robinson
8. Artis Gilmore
9. Bob McAdoo
10. Patrick Ewing
What? No Mikan. No Thurmond?
First, are we including Duncan in the discussion or not?
After that, this one is easier to disect than the PG one... Not every center could nessacarily play the position at any given era.
There are your standard picks.
Olijuwon
Russell
Jabbar
Wilt
Shaq
Robinson
Ewing
Even Reed and the Bullets' dude gets some nods
Usualy it boils down to:
Wilt
Russel
Shaq
Olijuwon
Jabbar
And further, it always seems to come down to Wilt and whomever is the personal preference.
Gonna just scroll past the responses so far to avoid any being unduly influenced. In no particular order:
Wilt
Russell
Shaq
Kareem
Hakeem
Moses
Mikan
Robinson
Beyond that, everybody else is in the next tier. Walton would make it if he had managed to stay healthy. At his height he was top-10 talent and results.
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-jabbar
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Moses Malone
6. Hakeem Olajuwan
7. Nate Thurmond
8. David Robinson
9. George Mikan
10. Bob McAdoo
Just missing: Willis Reed, Patrick Ewing, Artis Gilmore, Dikembe Mutombo, Alonzo Mourning round out my top-15.
I think any of those who just missed are probably better players than Mikan, but I don't like to discount a player just because of the era he played in.
Also, I think Shaquille O'Neal and Moses Malone had better, more dominant careers than did Hakeem, but I would most definately take Olajuwan's 1990-to-1997 years over the O'Neal's and Malone's best years.
Nate Thurmond was just a beast. Definately deserves a top-10. Robinson gets slid a bit down, but I think very highly of him. Easily a top-10. It was a toss up twixt McAdoo, Reed and Ewing, and I went with McAdoo, but it's really too close to call.
I threw in Mourning, because, had he not had the kidney ailment take away three or four of his prime years, he'd most definately be scraping the top-12. I'd probably have had him higher than Ewing, had he been able to stay healthy.
Mikan Jordan?
Strom Thurmond? He played basketball? He was kinda short...but if he played center more power to him. He still didn't make my top 10.
No, I know that Mikan changed the game and was the first dominant big player, paving the way for other great bigs but meh...I'm just offering the opinion since I've seen most of these guys play (yes, some on tape).
Nate Thurmond was pretty good, but I think was playing in the shadows of the Wilts and Kareems of the world.
...but DAMN I have to admit I was a Wes Unseld fan.
Greg Oden
I'll start this thread again in 15 years...you might be right.
01 Wilt Chamberlain
02 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
03 Hakeem Olajuwon
04 Shaquille O'Neal
05 David Robinson
06 Moses Malone
07 Bill Russell
08 George Mikan
09 Patrick Ewing
10 Artis Gilmore
And why are you all calling McAdoo a C? AFAICR, McAdoo was a PF, a little like KG.
I'd put Shaq atop Hakeem.
And Kareem would be my first.
McAdoo played Center and Forward. At first, he was playing the F because he was thin and didn't defend very well. He was probably the most gifted shooter the league had seen up to that point for a Big. Dirk Nowitzki is a good comparison today but Mac was ahead of his time. A Big who could take his man out on the floor and score or drive and score.
He was messed around with in NY, Boston and NJ was finally picked up cheap (like Luis Scola) by the Lakers for cash and a 2nd round draft pick. He won 2 rings and came close for 2 more rings. I remember he played more of a 4 and Mychal Thompson played the 5 when Kareem was out...but he def. played C in Buffalo and he backed up Cowens in Boston.
I only need 3 - David, Hakeem and Kareem. Never saw the older guys play, and there hasn't been anyone approaching those guys over the last 20 years, except Shaq, who I never enjoyed watching, so screw him.
David and Shaq>>>>>>>>>Bill Russell
Thurmond is not top 10
but Mikan is though
and btw
wtf McAdoo? He was not a real center
Bill Russell=scoring when you need scoring
Russell was basically Dennis Rodman without the BS but with a HOF roster. The guys that I ranked ahead of him are ranked that way because they were needed on both ends. If you needed Russ to score, well, good luck with that.
And don't try to come back with "Russell's defense was so good it made up for his lack of offense." Remember, Olajuwon and Robinson were incredible defenders, two of the best of all time. Do you really think Russell was WAY better than either of them?
Unless you've got some amazing evidence to support that (and let's remember, les are won by teams, not players), it's not going to work.
In these ratings, we need to decide whether or not players who happen to play a position are defined by that position, or, since they aren't necessarily defined by the position, if they should be included.
Since this was the bas child of the PG thread, with it being openly debated in it that players like Robertson and Maravich are in fact PGs because they led the offense, that since certain players manned the pivot, that they'd be considered in my list.
BTW, I've read plenty of lists, and I've looked at the stats and as far as centers go, Thurmond is among the most impressive stastically of his era. His years with the Warriors are unbelievable. He had four seasons where he averaged more than 20 ppg and 15 rpg. He had two seasons where he averaged over 20 ppg, and 20 rpg. He was voted one of the 50 greatest players in 1998, was a seven-time All-Star and was named to an All-NBA Defensive team five times during his prime.
I would most definately have him on the list.
If McAdoo is regarded as a PF, then he's off, but if he's got any center status, which since he played the positions at times, I guess he should, then he's most certainly a top-10 center as well, even if he was more of a finesse center than traditional low-post pivot.
Going old skool.
Solid, brutha, please don't tell me that you and John Wooden used to hang out in high school.
Russell is always an interesting discussion. While he was certainly physically dominant in his way during his time, I just can't see how he would come close to having the same impact in today's game (whereas I'm pretty sure Wilt would easily be a top-2 center).
However, Russell completely changed the idea of what a dominant center was. He was the first guy who showed you can win the game by defense (and in the Celtics' case, defense = Russell rebounds = Russell outlets = fast breaks). While he wasn't a great scorer, he was still valuable on offense (he averaged over 4 assists a game).
Probably the closest overall player to him was Bill Walton on the 76-77 Blazers, but every good/great defensive center since the 1960s got that way using principles that Russell developed. From what I can tell DRob was probably the guy most like him on defense (which arguably makes DRob the second-best defensive center of all time).
Not only that, but the only other player who maybe had a comparable compe ive fire was Jordan. Russell's combined record in college and pros speaks for itself: 13 championships in 15 years. Plus an Olympic le (when only college guys went).
I don't think there's been a center since who has changed the entire concept of how the position is supposed to be played. So, even though I don't think physically Russell could dominate today, there's no way I can rank him below #2.
That is the best argument of Russell's legacy: He was the first big man (although smallish by modern standards at 6'9") who could really move like a much smaller player. When you have the athleticism of a Russell or a Chamberlain, you make a terrific impact by being able to play both sides of the lane with quick reactions, long arms, and great leaping ability. This is old news today, but for generations of players who previously played against George Mikan, Charlie Share, and Neil Johnston (just to name a few pre-Russell slow, lumbering big men), it was hard to deal with this new kind of defensive presence.I don't think there's been a center since who has changed the entire concept of how the position is supposed to be played. So, even though I don't think physically Russell could dominate today, there's no way I can rank him below #2.
This is why I'm skeptical of some of the old stars. In fact, think of it this way: let's say that you're eighteen years old and a good basketball player. If you get into a pickup game with a bunch of guys at your age and skill level, you'll probably find it hard to really dominate. Now, leave that game and go play against a bunch of fifteen year-olds. Chances are, you'll probably play better than you did against your peers. Leave that game to go play against twelve year olds, and now you're probably playing like a great player.
I happen to think Russell and Chamberlain were eighteen year olds playing mostly against fifteen year olds, to carry the analogy further forward. Baylor, West, and Oscar were also at or near their level but weren't centers. In today's game, the gap between the best athletes and the worst isn't terribly wide. Back in the sixties, it was way bigger.
So I try to evaluate these players in terms of how they would perform today. To me, Russell is Dennis Rodman without the crap, while Chamberlain is kind of a Shaq+DRob hybrid. Both would excel, but Chamberlain would dominate to a greater extent.
Unfortunately, Chamberlain was overmatched against the HOF teams Boston ran out there under Red Auerbach. One man, even one as great as Chamberlain, can't beat an entire wing of the Hall of Fame.
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