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if only the american people werent stupid enough to buy this again and again and again and again.
I mean look at yoni and xray, those guys are ing brainwashed
October 8, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
Same Old Party
By PAUL KRUGMAN
There have been a number of articles recently that portray President Bush as someone who strayed from the path of true conservatism. Republicans, these articles say, need to return to their roots.
Well, I don’t know what true conservatism is, but while doing research for my forthcoming book I spent a lot of time studying the history of the American political movement that calls itself conservatism — and Mr. Bush hasn’t strayed from the path at all. On the contrary, he’s the very model of a modern movement conservative.
For example, people claim to be shocked that Mr. Bush cut taxes while waging an expensive war. But Ronald Reagan also cut taxes while embarking on a huge military buildup.
People claim to be shocked by Mr. Bush’s general fiscal irresponsibility. But conservative intellectuals, by their own account, abandoned fiscal responsibility 30 years ago. Here’s how Irving Kristol, then the editor of The Public Interest, explained his embrace of supply-side economics in the 1970s: He had a “rather cavalier at ude toward the budget deficit and other monetary or fiscal problems” because “the task, as I saw it, was to create a new majority, which evidently would mean a conservative majority, which came to mean, in turn, a Republican majority — so political effectiveness was the priority, not the accounting deficiencies of government.”
People claim to be shocked by the way the Bush administration outsourced key government functions to private contractors yet refused to exert effective oversight over these contractors, a process exemplified by the failed reconstruction of Iraq and the Blackwater affair.
But back in 1993, Jonathan Cohn, writing in The American Prospect, explained that “under Reagan and Bush, the ranks of public officials necessary to supervise contractors have been so thinned that the putative gains of contracting out have evaporated. Agencies have been left with the worst of both worlds — demoralized and disorganized public officials and unaccountable private contractors.”
People claim to be shocked by the Bush administration’s general incompetence. But disinterest in good government has long been a principle of modern conservatism. In “The Conscience of a Conservative,” published in 1960, Barry Goldwater wrote that “I have little interest in streamlining government or making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size.”
People claim to be shocked that the Bush Justice Department, making a mockery of the Cons ution, issued a secret opinion authorizing torture despite instructions by Congress and the courts that the practice should stop. But remember Iran-Contra? The Reagan administration secretly sold weapons to Iran, violating a legal embargo, and used the proceeds to support the Nicaraguan contras, defying an explicit Congressional ban on such support.
Oh, and if you think Iran-Contra was a rogue operation, rather than something done with the full knowledge and approval of people at the top — who were then protected by a careful cover-up, including convenient presidential pardons — I’ve got a letter from Niger you might want to buy.
People claim to be shocked at the Bush administration’s efforts to disenfranchise minority groups, under the pretense of combating voting fraud. But Reagan opposed the Voting Rights Act, and as late as 1980 he described it as “humiliating to the South.”
People claim to be shocked at the Bush administration’s attempts — which, for a time, were all too successful — to intimidate the press. But this administration’s media tactics, and to a large extent the people implementing those tactics, come straight out of the Nixon administration. Cheney wanted to search Seymour Hersh’s apartment, not last week, but in 1975. Roger Ailes, the president of Fox News, was Nixon’s media adviser.
People claim to be shocked at the Bush administration’s attempts to equate dissent with treason. But Goldwater — who, like Reagan, has been reinvented as an icon of conservative purity but was a much less attractive figure in real life — staunchly supported Joseph McCarthy, and was one of only 22 senators who voted against a motion censuring the demagogue.
Above all, people claim to be shocked by the Bush administration’s authoritarianism, its disdain for the rule of law. But a full half-century has passed since The National Review proclaimed that “the White community in the South is en led to take such measures as are necessary to prevail,” and dismissed as irrelevant objections that might be raised after “consulting a catalogue of the rights of American citizens, born Equal” — presumably a reference to the do ent known as the Cons ution of the United States.
Now, as they survey the wreckage of their cause, conservatives may ask themselves: “Well, how did we get here?” They may tell themselves: “This is not my beautiful Right.” They may ask themselves: “My God, what have we done?”
But their movement is the same as it ever was. And Mr. Bush is movement conservatism’s true, loyal heir.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/08/op...wCP0J8gzIA43Xg
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Yeah, yeah, you dubya suckers will on Krugman, but can you refute his thesis, which is that "movement conservatives" trying to distance themselves from dubya now that dubya's ship and legacy are sinking in an ocean of pervasive corruption, willful incompetence in governance, and an oil-grabbing geo-political disaster are as dishonest and hypocritcal as ever.
Their puppet dubya is a 100% creation and true expression of neo- /movement conservative principles in action.
Last edited by boutons_; 10-07-2007 at 11:24 PM.
if only the american people werent stupid enough to buy this again and again and again and again.
I mean look at yoni and xray, those guys are ing brainwashed
Vote for Mitt McGiuliompson!!
And liberalism has been shown to be such a beacon of shining success everywhere its been tried!
All you people slamming the Republican party do realize that its approval rating is lower than ever because conservatives are pissed don't you?
And who are the "shocked" people Krugman is speaking about?
Yoni and XRay, previously mentioned, aren't shocked. As far as I can tell they by and large support the administration.
Krugman is the worst columnist out there. Knee-jerk liberal, non-thinking, lazy writer (the local paper carries his tripe).
Ok Boutons,
I think you have made your point. You hate the republicans and the Bush Administration. They are the most vile and evil force this planet has ever know. No matter what you post, you will not ever change the minds of the die hard right wingers on this site and the amount of vitriol you spit out puts off the independents who might otherwise be inclined to listen to your point of view.
Seeing as you've yet to change one mind in this forum and don't seem inclined to care about doing so, can you please move onto a different topic now (and not include a rant about republicans or Bush)? It is possible to talk issues and politics without doing that you know.
I'm open to all evidence that:
offsets the derelictions of duty and coverup pre-9/11.
offsets Iraq
shows the Repugs have moved American civilization forward
dubya/Repugs have addressed the real problems facing the country since taking Exec and Legis control.
Waiting...
Nobody has bothered to address Krugman's thesis, overall or point by point.
Krugman and boutons are the problem, not the dubya/ head/neo- s/Repugs.
Last edited by boutons_; 10-08-2007 at 01:21 PM.
No one has the amount of free time you do.
Get a job.
Ok, you missed my point. No one is going to address this issue because they do not want to debate with you. I'm not a Dubya supporter, and I've grown tired of this. I agree that he hasn't had a good presidency, but he's not gonna get impeached (Dem leadership said they weren't going to attempt) and I don't understand what you want by continuing to post these articles. Yoni and Xray view youin the same way that you probably view them, (deluded and brainwashed).
no one is going to answer your posts about these things much like you don't address the questions they pose to you.
The only posts I seem to see form you are anti-bush, anti-repug and that is it. you've gotten to the point of just repeating yourself and I can see from the many posts of others that most of the articles that you post don't get read. I'm just suggesting that you tell yourself that you've addressed every angle of your dislike for bush/republicans and move to a different topic.
Quoting op-ed pieces aren't going to change the minds of others, just as op-ed pieces from conservative authors aren't going to change your mind.
"you don't address the questions they pose to you."
link?
"The only posts I seem to see form you are anti-bush, anti-repug and that is it"
Where are the forum rules about what is to be posted? that anybody has to post on a wide variety of issues, on any specific issues?
Who said anybody is trying to change anybody's mind?
Brainwashed. Son, I am old and have seen how our
country has changed. I have seen a Democratic party
go from being conservative to being nothing more than
pure socialist. You my friend are the brainwashed and
un-informed.
I am shocked to some degree when I read junk and hear101 said: Yoni and XRay, previously mentioned, aren't shocked. As far as I can tell they by and large support the administration.
junk. I cannot believe the folks on this forum that
don't know history. What has been and what will be.
Look at how facts are twisted by the dimm-o-craps.
One recent example: SCHIPS. They say Bush wants
to cut it. He wants to increase it. They, the dimms,
are always using language like this. And no federal
programs have ever, ever been cut.
No, I do not support the administration in all their
decisions. Like the one where Bush is supporting the
World Court on the death sentence for a Mexican
citizen. He, Bush, is infringing on states rights. I
do not support Bush on illegal immigration.
I get very tired, indeed, of government tell me I must
have insurance, I must wear seat belts, kids must be
strapped into car seats, they recall toys painted with
lead paint. Government is a bunch of damn people
who are just like you and me. Government does not
give anyone, anything. They cant, because they take
all the money they give away from US.
Congress has made a mess of most things for the last
fifty years. The greatest thing in the world they could
do is not pass any more domestic legislation.
Radicalism has ruined this country. And that is a fact.
I do support the administration when it comes to
war. And believe me we are at war. I know many on
this forum don't agree with me, so what. I don't
agree with them. We were attack, yeah, I know the
argument, they were Saudi's. No they were Fanatical
Muslims. Get the damn facts straight.
As far as links, I'm really not going to bother with it since I'm under the impression that the search feature is turned off and I've got no desire to debate you on this issue. If you want to say that you don't ignore others questions, fine so be it.
No rules on anything to be posted. You are free to post whatever you want as you currently are. If you are not posting in here trying to have discourse and have no intention of changing anyones mind, then more power to you for wasting time and effort to find all these articles and post to your heart's content. I'm surprised that you have no purpose to do so then just to see something you post end up on the internet.
I hope that doing so provides you with the outlet for all that pent up rage you seem to have.
we at war ray. unfortunately we are also in an unecessary war... see Iraq..
Whatever your thoughts on Krugman, or Boutons for that matter, conservatives find themselves at a very precarious cross-point of their own making...I posted that this was exactly what would happen two years ago if prominent conservative Republicans did not stand up then to the out-of-control spending by Dubya and the Neocons..the crony appointments...redefining torture laws.....
...the conservatives need a 'savior' today more than ever, just not Ron Paul.....
...I compare Ron Paul to Dennis Kucinich on the left...if there was a centrist candidate, or any candidate that attracted conservatives, like Hitlary, Obama, and Edwards do for the left..then candidates like Kucinich, or Paul wouldn't have a prayer...
Krugman is an idiot. President Bush is more liberal than conservative. He is not a traditional conservative when it comes to many important things.
Neither are you.
I think what Krugman was trying to point out is that if you are not part of the solution, taking the Republican party to conservatism values, then you are part of the problem....for instance, not many Americans support water-torture, but if it is defacto-policy of the current administration and you don't voice opposition to it, then by defacto, you support water torture....
I think you are referring to the water boarding. Anyway, that is not torture. When we speak of torture, we should realize that it entails excruciating pain normally. Not something that just panics or scares people.
Can anyone tell me of a single incident backed up factually rather than just someone's word that we have tortured anyone in the last 30 years or so?
Only the 'phony soldier' that became a liberal idol has claimed to participate in such activities, and the likes of John Kerry back in the late 60's.
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/tagubarpt.htmlCan anyone tell me of a single incident backed up factually rather than just someone's word that we have tortured anyone in the last 30 years or so?
Doesn't qualify as torture like I explained in the other thread.
As you defined it, it does.
Conservatism with respect to federal spending, size of government, and foreign policy is pretty much dead in both parties.
The only 2 Republicans that are IMO conservative in those 3 areas are Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul. So imagine my shock when I saw this yesterday:
Right-Of-Center Bloggers Select Their Least Favorite People On The Right
http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2...s_select_3.php
1.) Ron Paul
2.) Pat Buchanan
Two men who have run/are running for president of the USA with the intent to greatly reduce the size and power of the federal government, eliminate the Federal Reserve, eliminate personal federal income taxes and the IRS, and to stop policing the world and fighting wars that aren't in our direct vital interests.
And the right-wing bloggers can't seem to stand these 2 men! Yes it's just bloggers, but still I'm afraid the poll is an accurate picture of the thoughts of the current republican party.
So, it may be the same old party for the past few decades, but there was a time when Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan would have been mainline republicans. Now, Rudy Giuliani is the leading candidate for the republican nomination, and Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan are considered too "out there" and are actually disliked by a number of republicans... And now I'm off to spin on my head
The saddest part for GOP is if Dubya was eligible for re-election, he would probably win the nomination with a 30% approval rating - that is the state of the GOP....
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