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Kareem (Center)
Duncan (Power Forward)
http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblog...onald_d_1.html
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October 23, 2007
MIAMI -- Pat Riley has coached Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Pat Riley has also coached Shaquille O'Neal. Good news for Spurs fans: Pat Riley says Tim Duncan reminds him of the former, and not the latter.
"Duncan reminds me a lot of Kareem," Riley, the Miami Heat coach, said after this morning's shootaround. "Kareem wasn't a physical center, he was a finesse center. And he played until he was 41 years old."
More than that, Jabbar remained one of the league's most dominant players well into his late 30s. In 1986, at age 38, Jabbar averaged 23.4 points per game.
Riley's point: Big men like Duncan and Jabbar, who rely more on their mind and their touch than sheer physical strength and skill, tend to have a longer shelf life in the NBA.
Meanwhile, players whose main strength is their strength -- like O'Neal -- often begin to show their age much sooner. O'Neal's body has begun to betray him the past couple seasons. At age 34, he is obviously on the downslope of his Hall-of-Fame career. This preseason, O'Neal has been plagued with a strained calf muscle. (He's expected to play in tonight's game after sitting out the previous two).
But back to Kareem ...
"I didn't start coaching Kareem until he was 32 years old," Riley said. "And he played nine more years after that. And he won four more championships after that."
Riley says he wouldn't be surprised if Duncan accomplished something similar, in terms of both success and longevity. Spurs fans can only hope he's right.
Kareem (Center)
Duncan (Power Forward)
Semantics.
he definitively does not utilize his full body strength and has learned from Pop how to administer the energy for the right time... i said he would retire with 8 rings... we'll c what happens...
I think that's a pipe dream. Everytime we win a championship, us Spurs fans seem to become so y.
People have been saying for years that Duncan has the potential to play well later in his career. I think the other issue is that since he is a family man, will he want to play into his late 30's? Nobody knows the answer to that question, although I'm sure people have opinions.
Duncan gets to be with his family more than you probably
Kareem was an asshole. I remember when I was in the 3rd grade and I asked him for an autograph his bodyguard said "no autographs kid". I got Tom Lagarde's auto that night though and latter in the season Dr. J shook my hand and talked to me for a minute while signing an auto.
So when three years latter his house caught on fire I wasn't suprised. Karma's a and so was his old raggedy ass.
Last edited by LEN BIAS 4EVER; 10-23-2007 at 04:21 PM.
Kareem never signed autographs for anyone...his choice in a free country. At least he was consistent about it.
I agree Duncan is from the Kareem school and that those guys tend to last longer(IMO, Malone was from the Kareem school as well, he was just the class delinquent)...
But here's the deal...Kareem went 7'2 and was arguably the best conditioned bigman in the league, one of the most co-ordinated, and as well one of the fastest...even when he got old, he was a mismatch for most 7 footers...
There was no one 7'0 that could match his speed and coordination...
So while I do think Duncan can play until he's 40, I don't think he'll remain as dominant as Kareem was late in his career....he'll decline more. He lacks Kareem's size and speed. But yeah...Duncan's skill will allow him to play late into his 30's and still be effective should he choose to do so, but he'll decline a little bit more than Kareem did as he ages.
Shaq doesn't rely on his strength alone, it was his combination of strength and agility/speed.
It would be sweet for TD to play well into his 30's and get more rings but I really don't think he will. IMHO I think he will play another 4 - 6 years and then get out. He's the cerebral type individual who after accomplishing much then heads of to do something else. Similar to Drob. Drob could have played at least 2 - 3 years or more but decided to hang it up to pursue other interests.
We need to appreciate TD while he stilll is here. Amazing how we Spurs fans seem to take him for granted at times.
In 4 - 6 years, Tim will be 34-36 years old. I think that qualifies as "well into his 30's", don't you? He's under contract for 3 more seasons, and I think if those are healthy seasons, he might be open to maybe 2-3 more. Although he could play more, anything beyond that is wishful thinking.
David couldn't have played another month. He retired because he had a bad back. He had other interests, but I don't think that was the driver behind his retirement.
Well...Drob played until he was 38...which is pretty old for a guy from the athleticism school....part of the reason is because he didn't start playing pro till he was about 25 years old.
Disagree....Drob could have played a little longer, but it would have been an on and off sort of thing, healthwise...
But even an old and broken down Drob minus most of his athleticism was still one of the fastest and most athletic C's in the NBA.
He wouldn't have put up great numbers or been a realiable member of the rotation, he definitely wouldn't have been able to play back to back nights...but he still would have been better than Rasho or Nazr.
Being a family man rather than out partying on the road that helps extend the old career.
What makes you think that? David had a terrible bad back. How do you think he could play 2-3 more years? You are supposing, just like your supposing with Tim Duncan and him "ONLY" wanting to play 4 more years so he can be with his family. You don't know how either thinks.
duncan's skilled, but i don't think i'd call him finesse. he uses his strength much more than I think people realize.
Eh, style of play has little to do with how long a bigman can play basketball. I see very little historical connection to the athleticism (or lack thereof) of a bigman and their career length.
For example, Brad Daugherty had a similar style to Duncan, played less games per year, shied away from contact ... and he was still done at 28. David Robinson relied heavily on athleticism and he was still a championship caliber player at 38. Shaquille O'Neal has put more wear and tear on his body over the years than about five average centers combined ... and he's still going relatively strong going into his 16th season. In fact, when Shaq was young, everyone said Shaq would have to retire young due to his size and style of play.
Career length is basically luck. If you can avoid major injuries and you have the right genes, you can play into your 40's. I see no rhyme or reason to it. I'd like to hope Duncan could play for a long time but that's impossible to tell. We could be witnessing the last couple years of Duncan's career ... or we could just be in the middle of his run. It's impossible to tell.
That said, what is pretty exciting is that sometimes bigmen peak later in their careers. for example, Hakeem peaked at around 33 years of age. He became a vastly improved player from the age of 30 to age 33. If Duncan can take a similar leap, that'd be nice.
Agreed. And even though Kareem did possess a lot of finesse, so much of what a center does relies on them having the strength to be in position to begin with. Shaq on the other hand has very little finesse. Kareem and Duncan could shoot from further than 3 feet on a consistent basis.
Strength does not leave an athlete as quickly as agility. That's why Kareem could play as long as he did. And hopefully that will be the case for Tim too.
Kareem was very athletic through his career, even in his later days. Duncan is more fundamentally sound and skilled than he is athletic. Not the greatest of comparisons.
Eh, style of play has little to do with how long a bigman can play basketball. I see very little historical connection to the athleticism (or lack thereof) of a bigman and their career length.
For example, Brad Daugherty had a similar style to Duncan, played less games per year, shied away from contact ... and he was still done at 28. David Robinson relied heavily on athleticism and he was still a championship caliber player at 38. Shaquille O'Neal has put more wear and tear on his body over the years than about five average centers combined ... and he's still going relatively strong going into his 16th season. In fact, when Shaq was young, everyone said Shaq would have to retire young due to his size and style of play.
Career length is basically luck. If you can avoid major injuries and you have the right genes, you can play into your 40's. I see no rhyme or reason to it. I'd like to hope Duncan could play for a long time but that's impossible to tell. We could be witnessing the last couple years of Duncan's career ... or we could just be in the middle of his run. It's impossible to tell.
That said, what is pretty exciting is that sometimes bigmen peak later in their careers. for example, Hakeem peaked at around 33 years of age. He became a vastly improved player from the age of 30 to age 33. If Duncan can take a similar leap, that'd be nice.
Gotta disagree here...
Drob and Shaq are two of the most athletic freaks to ever play the game...they had a lot of athleticism to lose.
Drob still only played 14 years or so....Shaq is about done.
Wilt was done after 13 years.
No, it's just common sense to me...athleticism leaves before skill leaves.
Anyone reliant primarily on their athleticism is going to have a tougher time lasting...
Athleticism = body
Skill = mind
There are some freaks that remain athletic way past the time of the typical player...but they are the extreme exception to the rule.
Most of the times the guys that last the longest are the guys the rely on their mental attributes more.
You don't see many players lasting till 40...and those that do, aren't doing it because they can jump out of the gym.
Eventually...the physical decline wins out...no matter how skilled.
Whether it's losing the ability to move...or just the body breaking down...the physical decline always has the ultimate say.
I would dispute that Shaq is "going strong".Eh, style of play has little to do with how long a bigman can play basketball. I see very little historical connection to the athleticism (or lack thereof) of a bigman and their career length.
For example, Brad Daugherty had a similar style to Duncan, played less games per year, shied away from contact ... and he was still done at 28. David Robinson relied heavily on athleticism and he was still a championship caliber player at 38. Shaquille O'Neal has put more wear and tear on his body over the years than about five average centers combined ... and he's still going relatively strong going into his 16th season. In fact, when Shaq was young, everyone said Shaq would have to retire young due to his size and style of play.
Career length is basically luck. If you can avoid major injuries and you have the right genes, you can play into your 40's. I see no rhyme or reason to it. I'd like to hope Duncan could play for a long time but that's impossible to tell. We could be witnessing the last couple years of Duncan's career ... or we could just be in the middle of his run. It's impossible to tell.
That said, what is pretty exciting is that sometimes bigmen peak later in their careers. for example, Hakeem peaked at around 33 years of age. He became a vastly improved player from the age of 30 to age 33. If Duncan can take a similar leap, that'd be nice.
He's played 981 out of 1198 possible regular season games over 15 years. Even pro-rating for 1999, that only averages out to 67/82 games per year.
I haven't gone through the list of the top centers, but I'm positive that if that's not THE worst durability record among them, it's way up there.
Sure, anyone can have an injury. But in Shaq's case it's been multiple different injuries over multiple years (he's had FIVE out of 14 seasons of 60 games or less, not counting 1999, and 8/14 seasons of less than 70 games, which is a record that could only be beaten by Bill Walton), and the overwelming majority of those has probably been related to him being out of shape.
That's the blemish that keeps Shaq a tier below Kareem, Russell, and Wilt(*). Those other guys all showed up ready to play on day 1 and brought it night in and out, every game, every season.
(*)Well, that, and being The Big Most Swept Ever, which may actually be a related issue.
Last edited by ShoogarBear; 10-24-2007 at 02:22 AM.
Actually, I didn't see much disagreement in your post. The points you disagreed on were points I didn't make.
My point was that simply not relying on athleticism isn't enough to predict that a player will play until they are 40. Plenty of players who even in their prime relied on smarts still were out of the game in their early-30's. And then there are other players who adjusted from being an athletic freak to being a cerebral player (Robert Horry, Cliff Robinson ... to name a couple recent examples).
Being a cerebral player doesn't mean you can play until you are 40. Just like being an athletic-based player doesn't mean you'll be out of the league at 32. It's much more random than that.
Seriously though, how does Shaq compare to others as far as missing games that count? Duncan and Robinson both missed a playoff run with injuries. Shaq, while he is lazy in the regular season, has been pretty darn healthy during the playoffs over the years.
I'd be interested in a breakdown of the best bigman of all-time and the percentage of playoff games they missed.
Playoff games missed, career:
Russell 0
Abdul-Jabbar 1 (the Magic Johnson game vs. the Sixers)
Chamberlain 0
Shaquille O'Neal 2
David Robinson 10 (3 games missed due to season-ending injury)
Tim Duncan 5 (4 games missed due to season-ending injury, 1 game missed due to father's death)
So now we've established that despite loafing through the regular season, Shaq still has missed more playoff games than Russell, Chamberlain, and Kareem COMBINED. And probably got swept more than those three COMBINED.
As for Duncan and Robinson, yeah, they've missed some. Season-ending injuries you can't do anything about. Robinson had chronic back problems that he played through. They still didn't loaf.
And we still haven't addressed that Shaq is mostly out due to weight issues that are self-inflicted.
He a top-five center all-time no question. But this image of him as Most Dominant Ever is just a joke.
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