Reply With QuoteIf you factor in Ginobili and Parker's chances of improving in the upcoming year(s) -- then I say we are all right.
Take this offseason out of the context of clearing cap space for two years to bring in a star replacement for David Robinson.
No Holt-ing Pattern to refer to.
No Lakers, Wolves, Kings improvements to compare to.
Just what the Spurs have lost and added. That's it.
Examine it purely as an ordinary offseason in a vacuum. (This way I won't go into my conclusion that this summer has fallen way short of expectations and we have not kept up with the Jonses.)
Do you think the front office has done well and why?
Subtractions:
David Robinson
Stephen Jackson
Speedy Claxton
Danny Ferry
Steve Smith
Menge Bateer
Additions:
Rasho Nesterovic
Hedo Turkoglu
Robert Horry
Ron Mercer
Devean Brown
If I am forgetting anyone, please add on.
I am not so sure the additions make up for the subtractions yet.
Are you?
Why?
Question.
If you factor in Ginobili and Parker's chances of improving in the upcoming year(s) -- then I say we are all right.
have not lost jackson yet
and ferry might not be traded either.
Spurs should be OK, they have a solid nucleus.
But I don't want to hear the moaning and ing 3 or 4 years from now, when Spurs fans complain about not having another superstar in the lineup (similar to David Robinson in the 1990s), and that being the main reason why the Spurs can't win more championships.
and I do no twant to hear you ing about why the lakers lose next year with no bench
Um, no. Nikos, those two are not additions or subtractions.
Lokk purely at who we lost and added and tell me why we should be rejoicing.
I'd like to know what everyone is so excited about.
I want to be happy, too.
I'm not sure it adds up either, but the new guys aren't total scrubs and the guys leaving weren't all stars either (with the obvious exception of the irreplaceable DRob).
Sure we all wanted a second franchise player, turns out none wanted to be here and/or the Spurs didn't want them. I simply can't write off these players and Pop's ability to put a team together every year just yet.
Ghost, the only thing I worry about A LOT is Rasho's D.
David anchored this team and will be sorely missed, especailly on the defensive end. I am extremely wary of Rasho -- so for that reason, I'm not sure the additions outweigh the subtractions either.
It's still a "maybe" for me.
That's fair, Chump.
I just don't see where people all going bananas like the Spurs won another draft lottery or something.
I know we're not done yet, but we've lsot more talent than we've gained.
GW,
you probably don't think it matters but you left Devin Brown off the additions list.
I think:
Rasho is better value than Kandi or Miller for the price we got him. While I have no delusions that he will replace D Robs defensive presense, I came to realize that we didn't use Dave that much this season.
Turkoglu should be servicable and may turn out to be a surprise with more minutes.
Horry is bench fodder like Ferry
Mercer is the wild card. Maybe he turns into a great bench player behind Manu (if Jax agents screws us) or maybe he will be traded for quality back up PG.
Jax isn't gone....yet
I would like to have kept/keep
Speedy, but for nothing more than 10M for 3yrs, 3rd year team option
Jax, but for nothing more than 12M for 3yrs, 3rd year team option
Kerr, for vet min 2 yrs, 2nd yrs team option
Willis, for vet min 2 yrs, 2nd yrs team option
GW is only happy when the players we get are "ballas" wear headbands.
Go Spurs...
I think we added alot of talent and depth. We will miss Daivd's presense on D and in the locker room, We will Miss Jackson's explosiveness, We will miss Ferry's Camby provoking antics. But such is the nature of the sport.
Honestly I thought Jackson was a big question mark on this team. He was frustrating to watch because he played with a lot of heart and hustle, but he made so many stupid mistakes too. Honestly Turkoglu is going to be an upgrade.
Rasho will be an offensive monster with Duncan playing the High Low game with him. Honestly there wasn't a better center out there with better hands than Rasho.
Parker and Manu must get better this year and be far more consistent with increased minutes. It boils down to how well the two of them mesh and grow together. There were times last year when Parker looked afraid to pass to Manu and that has to end. Their improvement will be the ultimate test of this off season's faith in them.
Um Ghost, NO. Drob was RETIRING. What did you want us to replace him with a great center and also get ODOM? Kandi is not MUCH better than Rasho and might even be a worse fit.
Also Ginobili and Parker's potential improvement are in a sense additions because they will get the opportunity to flourish with an extra year of experience. I guess that doesn't matter to you anyway cause Ginobili is just an energy player anyway right?
Ghost what signing would make you happy? DROB WAS RETIRING ANYWAY and Speedy has a big head and wants to start elsewhere, let him. Sjax agent probably screwed him over -- but oh well.
I guess the only thing that would have made you happy is Kandi-Odom seeing that Kidd and O Neal didnt want to come anyway.
But as I look at the additions and subtratctions I would say that our team is NOT worse.
Drob was going anyway and he is tough to replace.
Manu will almost be like a new player if he's healthy. We only saw flashes of him in limited minutes.
Claxton and Jack both pretty much left over money issues. There is only so much that you want to pay a backup PG when your new starting SG is going to be a FA next year, and the Arenas situation may rear it's head. That essentially makes the choice Speedy in a backup role, or Manu.
Jack is another issue altogether. I thought that he may slide into Bowen's starting role in a year or so, but his reported contract demands are absurd. He's exciting, but WILDLY inconsistant, and needs to consolidate his game for a year or two before he asks for that kind of money.
I think they replaced David as best they could with the pool of players actually interested in playing in SA to draw from. They got outside shooting and shotblocking, which mesh well with our current offensive and defensive sets.
They also have flexability down the line for next summer to re-sign Manu and Hedo, and possibly sign others.
the additions more than make up for the subtractions so far (except for one) speedy.
rasho is healthy and david wasn't. no matter what david used to be, he was always there at 7 feet to look intimidating next to duncan. rasho will do that... and could probably play more mins than dave doing it.
hedo might not be sjax, but thats a good thing. hedo has handles and is not as streaky a shooter... good hands. hedo is a finished player waiting to be polished... sjax's game is/was still raw for his age. getting him also means you start manu and not really worry about a 2/3 guy to bring in off the bench anymore. (hedo is perfect for that role)
horry is ferry and s smith rolled into one... and your guess is as good as mine as to why they got him... but ferry came in handy for one game during the phoenix series... so might horry come playoff time.
mercer might not stay for long, but if he does, he more than makes up for any depth issues we might have if either hedo or manu get injured... someone more than solid to come in and save the day.
speedy... ah... speedy... he's gonna be missed. but if it kicks parker's ass into gear, then it was worth losing him. parker has more talent than speedy, period, end of story. he just has to get used to getting over that hill when things go bad.
so, if they bring in some scrub to be his backup, pop won't yell at him or sit him down now... he'll leave him in... it could be what he needs, or it could be bad... who knows... but after the way he's played the last two years... i'd bet on him.
BTW, you have to throw in the hometown hero, Devin Brown.
I say with exception of Speedy Claxton, our additions more than make up for our subtractions.
However, Speedy Claxton was out for most of last season, and we did fine without him. We can never know what would have happened in the playoffs without Speedy, but I agree that we were fortunate to have him.
Signing Rod Strickland or any decent vet PG would be fine to replace Tony Parker for 10-15 mpg. We have a lot of other ball-handlers and smart basketball players to help out.
David Robinson was a better defender than Rasho. David Robinson also had a Tim Duncan to help him out, and a good defensive team all around. It makes a difference. However, I feel Rasho's youth is a big bonus over Robinson's unpredictable back.
I think that if Ron Mercer or Hedo Turkoglu got Jackson's minutes with the Spurs, they would do as good or better.
Mercer is a guy that averaged 19.7 ppg on 45% shooting when actually got to play and take shots. That ain't too shabby, a sight better than Sprewell last year. BTW, he is only 27.
Hedo is a guy that can drive, shoot, and pass. He has a better head for basketball than Stephen Jackson and won't be prone to the same kinds of mistakes.
Horry? What can you say? He busted his ass to help the lakers get to the playoffs and he had no juice left. I want to save the legs of perhaps the greatest clutch shooter ever. Again, he is a smart basketball player that can defend and shoot the open shot and sneak to the basket every once in a while.
Overall, we added a lot of talent.
Temple, we certainly agree in a lot of areas.
Nikos, part of any offseason is dealing with retiring players.
You cna't discount Robinson retiring unless you're going to discount a draft pick.
That's like just paying attention to the free agents we signed and ignoring the ones we lost.
Robinson retiring is a loss that must be dealt with.
Looking at the offseason at face value, so far we've lost more talent than we've gained.
I hope to see that balanced out as we fill out the rest of our bench and address the backup PG spot.
Right now, this offseason doesn't overwhelm me even by typical standards.
You factor in what the rest of the West has done and what we had the potential to do... oh wait. I said I would not go there.
We need to look at backup PGs and maybe make another trade for talent.
I understand this Ghost. But there wasn't much we could do with the loss of Drob. O Neal or Brand was the best choice to fill in underneath with Duncan -- but we could not get them. The next tier would be Kandi and Rasho and those two are pretty close overall in terms of fitting into the Spurs.
What else could we really do Ghost?
If we sign a backup PG our team will be considerably deeper than last season.
Even with the loss of Drob and Speedy I still say our subtractions do not outweigh our additions and if Manu and Parker improve I think our team is better than last seasons.
You can look at it from your +'s and -'s standpoint but the bottom line is we added more depth at the same time leaving it so Parker and Ginobili have a chance to grow into twice the players they were last season. That to me means more than meets the eye.
Sure from a +/- standpoint we do not have a HUGE edge -- but you have to take a look at this team and what it has and could be. And it is still a contender to win the le and it still has potential to keep improving.
Sometimes there is such a thing as addition by subtraction.
yeah ncali... we brought up the same points. i think even though david was a better defender, rasho's height is what duncan will use... rasho has the potential to grow under duncan, unlike his situation with the wolves and kg. (where rasho was forced to play under the basket)Temple, we certainly agree in a lot of areas.
parker's backup though... i think "whoever" will do. i mean with speedy it would have been nice because he knew the system towards the end... but thats about it.
as stated above, by kori and others---
DRob's D hasn't and i'd venture to say, will not be replaced.
Although it was good to see TD step up into the role of 'This is my neighborhood' even more last year.
If Rasho gets in the gym, he will lessen the blow, but this was expected, short of O'neill or Brand coming aboard.
Their is a major dropoff from speedy at the PG, on paper.
We'll see what happens there.
Anyone seen DBrown play that can comment on him?
Nikos, don't whine. I hate whining.
It's not about:
"What else could we have done?"
There's been about 13,745,687 posts over the past two years dedicated to that.
Do you really think we are an improved team on paper given who's gone and who we've added?
Question.
WHINE????
Did i complain that we didnt get KIDD, BRAND? Sure Im upset. But seeing we got Turk and Mercer for NOTHING I like our roster.
I don't LOVE it. But our team is not worse off.
What the **** you talking about whining? Your the one whos been whinning all in summer.
Did you see me away 500 posts about Holting Pattern or whatever the **** else you talk about.
What the are you talking about?
I guess Nikos can't stay within the boundaries of this conversation. We're not talking Holt-ing Pattern or about the moves the compe ion made. If we did, there would be no question this summer is a disaster.
You can honestly look at who we're losing and who we're getting and say we haven't missed a beat?
Please explain.
I am not convinced yet.
Nikos, don't whine. I hate whining.
Ghost - You didn't bother to even read any posts that addressed your concerns, did you?
Oh well. Pissing in the wind I suppose.
i don't know about him... but i do...Do you really think we are an improved team on paper given who's gone and who we've added?
if improving "on paper" won championships, i'd trade the spurs for dallas straight up and consider it a steal... but it doesn't. the guys we've picked up more than make up for what we lost, and with the "big guy" (not god) duncan... everything else always seems to work out.
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