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Wow a steady drumbeat eh?No if Dwight Howard would have gotten that stat line, writers and reporters would have been sucking off of his jock for a week.Duncan had 22 points, 21 rebounds and five assists, showing he's still the steady drumbeat
Has anyone read Adande’s article in today’s dime? Here’s the link:
I’m glad that he has some terrific things to say about Ginobili, and some extreme praise for Duncan toward the end. (He claims that Duncan belongs in the same conversation with Russell, Chamberlain, and Kareem. I agree.)http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime
Slowly But Surely, Torch Passes From Duncan To Ginobili
SAN ANTONIO -- Tim Duncan is underrated and Tim Duncan is overrated.
We don't give his career the full respect it deserves, yet sometimes we make the mistake of believing that, in 2008, the San Antonio Spurs are still about him. As Game 3 of the Western Conference Finals demonstrated, Manu Ginobili matters more than Duncan now. Ginobili returned to form, hitting for five 3-pointers and 30 points, and the Spurs got back into the win column with a 103-84 victory.
Duncan had 22 points, 21 rebounds and five assists, showing he's still the steady drumbeat. But now he's more a background percussionist like Ringo Starr than a showcase drummer like Sheila E. It was telling that when Ginobili was clearly off his game in Los Angeles, Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said he needed more from Tony Parker, not Duncan, even though Parker outscored Duncan 13-12 in Game 2.
Duncan's 30 points and 18 rebounds couldn't keep the Spurs from blowing a 20-point lead in Game 1. The Spurs didn't need any more than 16 points from him to beat the Hornets on the road in Game 7. They don't live and die with him anymore.
Other players still show deference to Duncan, as when Bruce Bowen said, "If we didn't have him out there, Tony and Manu and I wouldn't get what we get", but it was telling that the Spurs felt the need to mix up their offense and avoid predictably giving Duncan the ball every time downcourt in Game 3. Almost as telling as what Duncan himself said about Ginobili.
"He's the guy that we need to put the ball in the hole," Duncan said. "He needs to give us points that aren't easy. You can get up in situations where your offense stalls out or situations where you just can't put the ball in the hole. He is the kind of guy that we need to make plays for us."
Ginobili came through like a T1 connection Sunday, especially during a minute-long stretch in the second quarter when he scored nine points on a pair of 3-pointers and a layup-and-one.
Parker led the Spurs in scoring last season, the first time since 1998 Duncan wasn't atop that category. This year it was Ginobili, averaging 19.5 points per game.
"I had a great season this year scoring, so if you score so many points during the season then the team expects you to keep it up," Ginobili said.
He did it against the Hornets last series, leading the Spurs with a scoring average of 21.3 points, but he looked limited in the first two games against the Lakers, hobbling along with a bad ankle and trying to shoot with a torn fingernail that Kobe Bryant described as "nasty-looking" and "disgusting."
Ginobili said there weren't any physical changes this night, just the danger of being down 2-0 in the series, the loud hometown fans and the fact his first couple of shots went down.
The answer reveals why Ginobili doesn't rank higher in NBA lore. The greatest thrive in road playoff games. They can be judged just as easily by the still-high quality of their bad nights as much as their big nights. In these playoffs alone Ginobili has had shooting nights of 2 for 11, 5 for 15 and 5 for 13. In last year's playoffs he had pedestrian numbers of 16.7 points and 3.7 assists per game on 40 percent shooting during the Spurs' championship run.
Where does Duncan rank? How about second to Shaquille O'Neal among active playoff scorers --- and 31 points away from moving past Wilt Chamberlain into 12th place among the all-time playoff scorers. And he'll get there in about 10 fewer games than Big Wilt played.
People talk about the Spurs as four-time champions. Wrong. Tim Duncan is a four-time champion. Every other player from the 1999 team is gone. Only two other players are still in the league (Antonio Daniels and Malik Rose).
Even among the greatest of the greats, not many can say they won championships with an entirely different supporting cast. Ask Bill Russell which rings he prefers to wear from his extensive collection and he'll tell you the first and the 11th, because he's the only player who has both of them. Magic Johnson had Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Michael Cooper every step of the way. Michael Jordan always had Scottie Pippen.
Here's the list of players who have won multiple Finals MVPs since they gave out the first one in 1969: Abdul-Jabbar, Johnson, Larry Bird, Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, O'Neal and Duncan.
Only Duncan and Abdul-Jabbar won the award with completely different support casts.
Looking at all of the names on that list makes you realize we sell Duncan short when we refer to him as the best power forward of all time. He really should be in the conversation of best big man -- period -- part of the argument along with Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem and Shaq.
The one thing you can't call him, though, is The Man for the 2007 Spurs. That le belongs to Ginobili. In that case, make it El Hombre.
Nevertheless, I was surprised to see this near the top:
“We don't give [Duncan’s] career the full respect it deserves, yet sometimes we make the mistake of believing that, in 2008, the San Antonio Spurs are still about him. As Game 3 of the Western Conference Finals demonstrated, Manu Ginobili matters more than Duncan now.”
Now, I don’t care what the media perceives the Spurs’ pecking order to be. And I’m sure the Spurs themselves care even less than me. I just think it’s a very shortsighted article with little evidence in its favor. Recall that Ginobili played well but Duncan did not in the Game 1 loss to New Orleans, and Duncan played well but Ginobili did not in the Game 5 win over Phoenix.
Moreover, I’m always surprised at how the media seems to undervalue rebounding and interior defense—something a healthy Duncan always gives us even if he doesn’t score 20+.
In any event, how nice is it to have a dynamic duo—make that trio—that isn’t worried about hierarchy? I love being a Spurs fan.
Last edited by timvp; 05-26-2008 at 09:01 AM. Reason: added article
Wow a steady drumbeat eh?No if Dwight Howard would have gotten that stat line, writers and reporters would have been sucking off of his jock for a week.Duncan had 22 points, 21 rebounds and five assists, showing he's still the steady drumbeat
Let 'em think what they will. The only consistent about the Sportswriters I've read, is they consistently don't know what they're talking about.
That torch passed in June of '05.
Bull . Nice praise on Manu, but Duncan has meant more to the success of the Spurs this post season than Manu has. , even Parker has been more instrumental. Sorry, but it is what it is. Manu is Manu and I love him, but this is STILL Duncan's team.
I thought it was a really well written article...
I think he could have done a bit of a better job getting his point across... but basically the point is that Manu is really the barometer of this team and to a lesser extend its not all about Tim Duncan (which has been evident to anyone following the Spurs closer than box scores since about 2005)... Tony has established himself as one of the games top players on a consistent basis... as has Manu of course.... but when Manu plays on top of his game... this team morphs into a ompletely different animal.
Oh no. This team starts and ends with Tim Duncan. And that's not a knock on Manu. It's just that Tim is Tim and he is irreplaceable.
Once again people fail to understand how this team is constructed. Without TD Manu would never get the types of looks he gets on a regular basis. He will have those great games now and then but not consistently. TD's presence is the reason for the success of the Spurs and Manu. Without the double teams on TD it would be harder for Manu to get the driving lanes he has now IMO. And I would be willing to bet that Manu himself would say the same thing.
What I'm seeing on the floor is how instrumental TD is in how the opposing team sets up their game plan. All of the TNT announcers have stated that the Lakers have no answer for TD just like the Spurs really have no answer for Kobe. When the opposiong team concentrates on TD that opens up so many options for Manu, Tony and the rsst of the team. An that's how Pop constructed this team - inside/out.
TD obviously remains the foundation for this team. Manu started getting the rock in crunch time situations a couple seasons ago.
TD is the rock solid foundation. But Manu is the "heart and soul" of the Spurs.
That article is a joke. The national media is just crazy these days. First they basically blamed Ginobili for the Game 2 loss when it wasn't anywhere near his fault. Now all of a sudden he has passed Duncan in importance? WTF ?
Yeah, Ginobili was the best player on the Spurs in the regular season. But this is the playoffs now. Duncan, even when his numbers are ugly, is involved in just about every possession on both ends of the court.
Ginobili is a great player and when he's at his rolling he's a top five player in the NBA but the Spurs are best when they don't depend on his production. Ginobili's one flaw as a player is his inconsistency and the Spurs would be in trouble if they need Ginobili to be great every game to win.
I do agree with Duncan that Ginobili's biggest value to the team is scoring when baskets become hard to get and the pressure is on. Ginobili is the ultimate x-factor.
Without Tim's defense and rebounds, where are the Spurs?
There's more to basketball than scoring points.
Adande needs to take the torch and shove it up his ass. I'm sure he hated the fact he had to write an article about the Spurs to start with.
Plus it's kinda difficult to "pass the torch" when the players are basically the same age. Manu's only a year younger and with his style of play and the pounding his body takes, he will likely retire the same time as Duncan, maybe even sooner.
And Ginobili would be the first one to say so.
Agreed. The media flip flopping has gotten ridiculous of late.
That article is a joke. The national media is just crazy these days. First they basically blamed Ginobili for the Game 2 loss when it wasn't anywhere near his fault. Now all of a sudden he has passed Duncan in importance? WTF ?
Yeah, Ginobili was the best player on the Spurs in the regular season. But this is the playoffs now. Duncan, even when his numbers are ugly, is involved in just about every possession on both ends of the court.
which is the main reason why he's my favorite player in this team.
It's good to see Duncan get some praise, but I agree that this is and will always be Duncan's team. Manu can do great things, as we saw last night, and he plays with passion, which is contagious, but all things begin and end with Duncan.
Best thing is that we get to enjoy both of them on our team and then you throw in Parker. Hopefully, the three of them can lead this team to a win tomorrow night to tie up the series.
GO SPURS GO!
BELIEVE!
22/21/5 statline kinda makes his assertions difficult to accept.
It appears this playoff year that Manu sucking = Spurs lose. It is what it is. Need 7 more superstar games from him this season.
I would say TD and Manu is almost equally as important to the Spurs right now than TP. TD with his presence on the inside, passing and leadership and Manu on the perimeter with his heart and IQ. No matter who the alpha dog is, Im just thankful we have the big 3.
without duncans 21rebs this wouldve been a loss.....cause no one, NO ONE can fukn reb
Adande is u dumbass..He's desperatly trying to diss Tim Duncan. Sure u can praise Manu, he had a terrific game. So sure u can concentrate on him to write ur article. But to say Manu is holding the 'Torch' of the Spurs in these playoffs is crazy. And that would still be ok with me in, id swallow it.
The thing that really bothers me is, he's using Manu's performence to diss Duncan. Forget about the lil' compliments towards Duncan, in between lines its clear he has a problem with Timmy. And thats just really sad and pathetic. His goal wasn't to praise Manu, but to diss Timmy.
I said it!
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