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So Jordan was compe ive and couldn't get out of first round because of crap teammates and great compe ion, but Wilt couldn't win the le against a team with 8 HoFers because he wasn't compe ive?
Lebron/Wilt - most athletic but smallest brain/compe iveness
Bird/Duncan - least athletic but strongest brain/compe iveness
Jordan scored high on both
So Jordan was compe ive and couldn't get out of first round because of crap teammates and great compe ion, but Wilt couldn't win the le against a team with 8 HoFers because he wasn't compe ive?
Jordan stans logic
Not from TLD, but Jordan’s dad was ed up
A few excerpts for Roland Lazenby's "Michael Jordan: The Life":
"IT TOOK THE fewest of words to set him off, sometimes nothing more than the faintest trace of a smirk. He was also capable of making things up, conjuring up an affront out of thin air. That’s what they would all realize afterward. He would seize on apparently meaningless cracks or gestures and plunge them deep in his heart, until they glowed radioactively, the nuclear fuel rods of his great fire.
Only much later would the public come to understand just how incapable he was of letting go of even the tiniest details. Many observers mistakenly thought that these “affronts” were laughable things of Michael’s own manufacture, little devices to spur his compe ive juices, and that he could jokingly toss them aside when he was done with them, after he had wrung another sweaty victory from the evening. But he could not let them go any more than he could shed his right arm. They were as organic to his being as his famous tongue. Many of the things that deeply offended Michael Jordan were hardly the stuff of stinging rebuke, except perhaps the very first one, which, as it later turned out, was the most important of all.
“Just go on in the house with the women.”
Of the millions of sentences that James Jordan uttered to his youngest son, this was the one that glowed neon-bright across the decades.
… “Years later,” his sister Deloris recalled, “during the early days of his NBA career, he confessed that it was my father’s early treatment of him and Daddy’s declaration of his worthlessness that became the driving force that motivated him.… Each accomplishment that he achieved was his battle cry for defeating my father’s negative opinions of him.”
…
the union of James and Deloris Jordan teetered on the brink of self-destruction in the mid-1970s. They projected an image of happiness, but their marriage was plagued by a discord that lurched at times into violent arguments. In the worst of these conflicts, beginning on Calico Bay Road, James and Deloris would go at each other in front of the children, who would run across the street hoping to find a grandparent to break up the melee.
… Daughter Sis recalled one set-to where her mother went after her father and he responded by knocking her out cold. The children feared she might be dead, but the next morning she appeared from the bedroom, ready to face another day. Another incident brought a frightening car chase down a road near their house, with the children in one of the cars. Such incidents fitfully interrupted a general peace that kept the family moving forward, but always with a lurking element of fear.
…
When Sis got back in the car, Deloris told her daughter to explain what she had just said. The mother listened silently as Sis told of a pattern of persistent abuse over eight years in which James Jordan would visit her late at night in the bed she shared with Roslyn, who was a preschooler when the alleged abuse began. Sis recounted how her father first explained that he was teaching her to kiss like an adult, how confused she was, how the abuse escalated over time.
... What followed next was a harrowing scene, according to Sis’s account. They drove to Club Eleganza, where James was doing some maintenance work. His wife ordered him into the car, and they drove to a little-used road and pulled over, where Deloris told her daughter to repeat the allegations. As Sis delivered her account, Deloris told her husband that now certain things about the marriage made sense. James flew into a fury and began choking his daughter while screaming, “Are you going to believe this tramp over me?” Sis recalled being stunned at her father calling her a tramp. With Sis gasping, Deloris told him to stop or she would kill him.
Finally, then, the angry moment broke, Sis recalled in her book. They all calmed down and rode home, where the daughter retreated immediately to her bedroom. After about an hour, her mother came and told her that the cir stances made it impossible for the three of them to live together. Because Sis still had two years of high school left, she would have to leave the family to live in a girls’ home. She told her daughter that James had explained that he was “only trying to help her” and that she had terribly misunderstood his affection.
... The Jordans never acted on their threat of sending their daughter to a home for girls. The parents somehow managed to absorb the incident and move forward, all the while keeping a cheerful outward demeanor. James Jordan, in particular, would continue to earn praise and affection as the amiable father of a very special athlete."
Jordan averaged 30+ PPG in the playoffs his entire career. Wilt stopped doing so after 27 years old.
At the age of 32, Lakers made a run to the Finals with Wilt averaging 13 PPG in the playoffs
Careers were way shorter back then. It’s like saying what Lebron is doing in his 17th season be the wizards years.
where do you get the idea that lebron or wilt lack brain?
lol what? it never once disappeared. in fact it has basically been at the root of this whole discussion
lmao so you are saying that it was virtually impossible for perimeter oriented players to score lots of points prior to the rule change
absolutely true. but also has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he was clearly the #3 scorer on the team behind shaq and kobe. losing him whether its due to departure, or due to lack of productivity doesnt change the fact that the scoring punch he brought to the team needed to be replaced. it was very clear that kobe handled the majority of that difference by having an increased share in the offense.
hm where was anything like that even remotely hinted? if i recall, YOU were the one who claimed that rices scoring was replaced by fox and fisher. i provided proof that kobe handled some of it as well. but at no time did i claim that people playing the same position picked up the scoring slack. would you like to provide proof of anyone on the team who picked up the slack more than kobe did?
you're the one who is making this claim that the rule changes is the single biggest contributor, and that there has NEVER been a year where 6-7 wing players had a dramatic scoring increase. would you like to back this up with some proof?
you act as if there has never been perimeter players who put up massive scoring numbers prior to the rule change, when the truth is there has always been plenty. the rule changes helped to an extent i dont disagree, but id say the bigger factor by far was the success off michael jordan. coaches realized that running plays through wings allows for far more versatility on offense. young wing players grew up wanting to imitate mike. therefore in middle school, high school, AAU, etc... coaches began focusing offenses more on wings than on big men, resulting in drafts in the later 90s having an increase in skilled wing players, and a decrease in skilled big men. you seriously think that there was a remotely comparable number of skilled big men in the drafts from 96-05, compared to 85-95? or a comparable number of skilled wing players in drafts from 85-95, compare to 96-05? please. the big man was being phased out, while the wing was being more incorporated well before the rule change was made.
and even then, as has been clearly noted a number of times by multiple people, immediately after hand-checking was toned down, zone was allowed, which received plenty of complaints from perimeter players that it made it much tougher offensively. not to mention, players had been figuring out that its not hard to beat a handcheck by simply swiping away at the arm, and then it pretty much was a wide open lane to the basket because it frequently throws the defenders balance off. oh and of course players figuring out loopholes in the hand-checking rule anyways with swingthrough fouls.
truth is, handchecking never worked against elite scorers. its simply a coverup for slower players, or guys with poor defensive footwork. and it only works against people who aren't particularly good at scoring anyways. lets not act like elite defenders like payton, pippen or rodman ever successfully shut down elite scoring wings like jordan, dominique, penny, kobe, clyde. maybe frustrate them for a game or a quarter, but that was about the extent of it. they all ultimately got ate up just like any other defender.
Last edited by Neo.; 05-07-2020 at 12:52 PM.
Hand checking is one of the biggest BS myths in sports
Not to mention refs actually called hand checking in the 90s
Handchecking was one thing -- but often times you got a guy holding you with one hand and smashing you in the nuts with the other. Makes things difficult out there, lol. Just ask anyone who was guarded by John Stockton. If you are bored, go look it up on YT.
That was in the 80's. The 90's were a more mild version of the same. Absolutely not a myth.
If one has to hand check while grabbing someone in the nuts then he can't play defesne for
this is the exact type of revisionist history that drives people nuts. taking one picture of a guy hitting jordans nuts = ZOMG EVERY POSSESSION YOU HAD TO BE PREPARED FOR A NUTSHOT AND DECAPITATION BY THE WEAKSIDE SHOTBLOCKER, EVERYONE LITERALLY NEARLY DIED WHEN PLAYING BASKETBALL IN THE 80s AND 90s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!11!1!!
sure, stockton was dirty. very clear and obvious. but lets not act like he was just shutting elite scorers down every night (or any night for that matter). and lets also not act like modern players don't have their own subtle dirty tricks and ways to piss opponents off. there is plenty going on at all times, players today have just found their own ways of hiding it, and will likely be exposed in books, reports and do entaries in years to come, as is always the case.
Exactlythis is the exact type of revisionist history that drives people nuts. taking one picture of a guy hitting jordans nuts = ZOMG EVERY POSSESSION YOU HAD TO BE PREPARED FOR A NUTSHOT AND DECAPITATION BY THE WEAKSIDE SHOTBLOCKER, EVERYONE LITERALLY NEARLY DIED WHEN PLAYING BASKETBALL IN THE 80s AND 90s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!11!1!!
sure, stockton was dirty. very clear and obvious. but lets not act like he was just shutting elite scorers down every night (or any night for that matter). and lets also not act like modern players don't have their own subtle dirty tricks and ways to piss opponents off. there is plenty going on at all times, players today have just found their own ways of hiding it, and will likely be exposed in books, reports and do entaries in years to come, as is always the case.
People watch those highlight videos and assume a player was beheaded every time he touched the ball which wasn't always the case
I have seen dirty/physcial plays in the NBA during the last few years too; I can make a compilcation video and 20 years from now someone will watch and say "the 2020's were mch physical herp derp"
lol for good measure i went back and examined these stats only to realize that the "evidence" that you presented that the rule change is the far and away the biggest reason for increased perimeter play is even more trash than i initially thought
your claim is that the league went from five big men, low post players being the the top 10 PPG in 99-00, to two in 00-01, and that we've never even remotely seen a change like this before. so there were three big guys who dropped off the list between those years: Malone, KG and Timmy
first, lets not kid ourselves into thinking KG was a true low post player, he was about as perimeter oriented of a big man as there was in the league. his "low post" buckets was mostly putbacks. he clearly favored using his perimeter skills and shooting long fadeaways. but for the sake of argument, we will consider KG as a low post scorer
at 9 and 10 on the list of top 10 ppg in 99-00 was KG and Duncan. the next four guys (11-14: Finley, Kobe, Marbury, Ray) were all within 1.1 ppg of being ahead of both KG and Timmy. it's not like there was some massive margin to overcome here.
also karl malone was 37 years old. yep, im sure age had nothing to do with his scoring drop(cue a highly funny and original joke from ambchang about emojis to avoid addressing how trash his point is)
lets also consider what happened the next year. in 01-02, timmy and karl ended up right back on the top 10 (oddly enough, Karl being back on there despite another drop in scoring average), and if not for missing 30 games for injury, webber would have qualified to be in that list too, bumping it back up to 4 of the top 10 ppg scorers being bigs. based off your conclusion, i figured even more perimeter players would have ended up on the list, or at the very least, the list standing pat. it didnt. same thing for 02-03.
well how about we rewind in time a bit now? in 98-99, there were 4, arguably 5 low post oriented scorers in the top 10. 97-98, same thing, 4, arguably 5. then 96-97? hm, it drops to 3, with just Malone, Olajuwon and Ewing, but shaq missed some games so lets add him and the number is 4; a drop regardless. then 95-96 8 of them top 10 were post oriented, and that's generally how it was prior to that. so it appears the big adjustment from bigs to wings began not in 00-01, but in 96-97 (where it dropped from 8 of the top 10 ppg scorers being low post big men, to 4, which is a bigger drop than 5 down to 2, only to go back up to 4 the next couple years), where we saw Iverson enter the league, and then some jumps in scoring from Glen Rice (5ppg increase), Spreewell (5ppg increase), Kendall Gill (nearly 8ppg increase), and Payton (2.5 ppg increase), along with quite a few other perimeter players having noticeable jumps in scoring but didn't quite crack the top 10, while Robinson and Barkley began to age out. and the league steadily evolved from there.
and what was the main reason for so many jumps in perimeter scoring in 96-97? i guess we could chalk it up to the fact that teams were taking more advantage of the shortened 3pt line. or maybe its simply a matter of perimeter scoring being proven to be more effective than a slow paced, dump-it-down offense, resulting in more skilled perimeter players entering the league and developing, while big men were aging out and not being replaced due to less skilled big men in the pipeline.
Last edited by Neo.; 05-07-2020 at 03:30 PM.
oh and also of note, many years in the 80s, the top ppg scorers were wings and perimeter players. the league was also full of offense at that time, yet still had handchecking and allowed dirty fouls (which in the minds of some is apparently the absolute kryptonite of wing players, rendering them completely incapable of being good scorers). interesting. i wonder if any of it had to do with strategy and style of play. or maybe it was all rule changes.
Yeah, now they sleep with each other's wives and make 200 burner accounts on twitter agreeing with and defending themselves. Plenty of time for that with all this load managing.
What is Jordans medical condition with his eyes?
Wondering the same. Liver condition?
my wife is a nurse practicioner she speculated the same ...
Last edited by Killakobe81; 05-08-2020 at 10:14 PM.
We about to get in to the " s" Horace says MJ denied him food based off his play and its getting traction ...Shannon sharpe says he don't give two s how many PPG MJ had he was fighting him for some like that.
I know many defend MJ no matter what and have mocked through "Mj was to mean for you new age hoops fans narrative" ...but that is over the line ...that is how bad owners treat dogs or abusers treat children or spouses when they step out of line ...
Now to be fair ... I have heard of other athletes/coaches having a winner's buffet table stuff like that in football but as a grown man that are supposed to be equals in theory ... ?
Im with Shay, we fighting on this one.
shay also says Horace had more dirt ...but he didn't feel comfortable sharing some of the extra things MJ did to him ... but will have him on to sharethem once Fox studios opens back up
I've always felt Horace was a real good dude. Of course, impossible to tell as I do not know him personally, but he just gives me that feel.
And I can say...after watching the first 6 episodes, that's maybe the one thing I am taking away from this. Jordan was a even bigger prick than I realized -- I already knew he was jerk based off his repulsive HOF speech. But to treat Horace like crap and put him on blast 20-30 years after the fact is beyond wrong. Get over it already. If I were Horace, I would respond by telling MJ, let my name taste like ass when you speak it. I'm sure Jordan wouldn't meet him face to face and talk that mess. Hiding behind his security team lol.
And Krause -- Jordan berated him on the bus. But what was Krause doing on that bus in the first place? Does RC Buford follow the Spurs around everywhere they go like a lost puppy dog?? Doubtful as he is more professional and less ego driven. Krause pretty much asked for it. So can't defend that guy.
Despite Jordan's character flaws, he is still the GOAT to me as I care more about results than your personal life. I do not see Lebron as a close #2 based off his lack of killer instinct and NBA finals flops.. I am not even ready to say he is #2. I'd probably take Kobe, Magic, Bird, Duncan and Kareem over him if we are talking best of all time. Wilt might have been better as well but never seen him play so not sure.
Alcoholism was the first thing that came to mind once I saw how jaundiced they were.
But who knows, he doesn't look like a slob or anything. I think he still takes care of himself overall.
Pics or it didn't happen
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