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Jordan also had better supporting casts than DRob most of the time. So is DROb > MJ?
Who was Duncan's HOF assist man/guard in 2003? In 99? In 2005?
Who was Shaq's future HOF compadre in 95 or this year?
Who was Hakeem's future HOF compadre in 94?
Shaq didnt win without Kobe but he got to the NBA Finals in his 3rd year in 95. He took out Jordan's bulls that year in the playoffs. He's made the Finals this year without Kobe.
Robinson never made the Finals as the #1 option on a team. He was to Duncan what Kobe was to Shaq or Pippen to MJ (a 2nd banana).
If you ask NBA GM's if they would want DRob or Shaq in their primes, how many do you honestly think wouldnt take Shaq?
Jordan also had better supporting casts than DRob most of the time. So is DROb > MJ?
*snip*
Damn bobbyjoe...one the one hand you come up with some decent takes, on the other, I sometimes wonder if you ever actually watched a game before.
You seem to be completely clueless about playoff basketball.
What's the first thing that happens to a dominant bigman in the playoffs?
He's get doubleteamed, the opposing team clogs the paint and forces the outside shooters to beat you.
Hakeem's 94 team was the most proliffic 3 point shooting team in NBA history. And they were clutch on top of it.
Mario Elie - Clutch
Robert Horry Clutch
Sam Cassell Clutch
No I know you want to say AJ was in that class but you must have never seen him play prior to 99...
He had no shot. He made 1 3 pointer in the playoffs in his entire 20 year career. And he didn't have shot from any closer in either.
Vinny Del Negro was a Euro scrub.
The reason David best regular season was followed by his worst post season was because it was the worst team he ever had...what masked that fact was Drob producing a pheonomenal regualr season, literally doing everything.
The Admiral didn't pad his stats...his stats lead directly to win...that's why he won 5 IMB awards in a 7 year period given to the player who does the most to help his team win.
He had two guards that would go on to make the All Star Team...he had the greatest shooter in NBA history, he also had David Robinson.
In 2005 he had an All Star Guard, and PG that would go on to make the All Star game the follow years...
It should be noted...these were both coach selections...not fan balloting.
Did Avery ever make an All Star Game? Did Vinny? Even as shooting or dunking participant?
Did they even make an All Rookie team?
Did they ever even start for any team but the Spurs?
Penny Hardaway was ALL NBA First Team Guard and if he hadn't destroyed his knees, he'd have made the Hall of Fame.Who was Shaq's future HOF compadre in 95 or this year?
Let's not forget Horace Grant, who was 3 time champion, All Star, All NBA Defender. He differs from Rodman in that...he could score too...15ppg.
Had an All Star former 20 and 10 PF in Otis Smith...Who was Hakeem's future HOF compadre in 94?
Robert Horry, who just might make the HOF.
Sam Cassell who would go on to make ALL NBA.
Did AJ ever make all NBA? Did Vinny?
That team was the most proliffic 3 shooting team in NBA history.
He wouldn't have if he had played in the Western Conference...he"d have gotten swept, unlike David Robinson.Shaq didnt win without Kobe but he got to the NBA Finals in his 3rd year in 95.
He got beat by the same guy that beat Drob, he just played him later.
Out of shape Jordan that hadn't been playing for a while...He took out Jordan's bulls that year in the playoffs.
And Jordan didn't have his rebounder that year...Grant or Rodman...
What did he have, was a team that won 55 ing games without him the previous year, and nearly made the finals. And Pippen who was contending for the MVP.
He also has an All NBA Guard...did David?He's made the Finals this year without Kobe.
He also has a former AS PF, Back up C, and former DPOY, ALL NBA, ALL NBA D, back up point.
And I know you'll say these guys are old...but David never played with a guy like that, old or otherwise.
How many finals did Jordan make without Pippen?Robinson never made the Finals as the #1 option on a team. He was to Duncan what Kobe was to Shaq or Pippen to MJ (a 2nd banana).
We wouldn't have won our first 2 les without Drob...Duncan wasn't the guy guarding Shaq...And Shaq destroyed us the following season.
I gurantee you the team that drafted Shaq wouldn't take him again...If you ask NBA GM's if they would want DRob or Shaq in their primes, how many do you honestly think wouldnt take Shaq?
But you can honestly tell me you think David Robinson had the same quality of guareds, that Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan have had?
I want you to tell me that...
I want you to tell me that you'd take Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro, over Cassell and Penny and Wade and Drexler and Kobe...
Just say it right here and now, and this argument will be over...because I will realize that you don't have a clue about NBA talent and never will and stop wasting time debating it.
David'd post season numbers were bad ass his first 2 years in the NBA...when he had guards with perimeter game that were NBA caliber guards...
Amazing how that works isn't it?
So if he started out tearing it up in the post season...what are you saying? He started choking later? He got soft later?
Or is it the fact that the rest of his career he had ty guards...most specifically the 94 season, when he didn't even have AJ's layups...he had Vinny a ty 2 guard, as his even ter point.
How ty was Vinny? Drob lead the ing team in assists. Wake me when Hakeem and them do that...
And wake me one of these mother ers goes into the armed forces to play basketball, and later plays with a torn mensicus in their knee and back condition that leaves them with no feelings in their legs...plays Shaq.
Then we'll talk about who is soft.
By the way...your excuse making for Hakeem has convinced me of one thing...
Duncan is better than Hakeem.
Duncan carried aging Drob to two les...Hakeem couldn't do it with Drexler, Pippen and Barkley.
Your logic...not mine.
Hmmm Shaq couldn't carry old Malone and Payton to les. Duncan did.
Again, your logic, not mine.
Duncan carried old David Robinson to two les...all by himself.
I might have to drop Hakeem down another notch...
After all, he couldn't win with Pippen and his 6 rings...your Rodman arugment...not mine.
Duncan is now my #1 on this list.
Therefore, Hakeem and Shaq aren't fit to hold Duncan's jock.
I await your contradictory response.
My new list looks like this:
#1. Duncan
#2. DRob...old Drob won a le with a second year player...Hakeem couldn't do it with Barkley and Pippen...Shaq couldn't do it with Payton and Malone. Can't do it this year either...old Drob was 2-0 against Nowitzki, old Shaq is gonna be 0-1.
#3. Hakeem.
#4. Shaq.
#5. Garnett.
#6 Ewing.
God I love one man team arguments.
Last edited by whottt; 06-11-2006 at 06:04 AM.
Jordan's freak statistical numbers speak for themselves...
The guy with the freakiest stats in this discussion is David Robinson.
You do realize that when Duncan carried an old D-Rob to les, Duncan was in his 2nd and 6th years in the NBA right, where your silly argument saying Hakeem couldn't carry Drexler, Barkley and eventually Pippen, Hakeem was past his prime, in his 13th, 14th and 15th seasons. If that is really your argument as to why Duncan is better than Hakeem, then you need to realize that Hakeem, too WAS OLD when Barkley and Pippen was on the team.
you putting D-Rob ahead of Hakeem, well that's just dumb.
Last edited by JBIIRockets; 06-11-2006 at 09:37 AM.
Duncan's HOF teammate was DRob in '99 and '03. We'll see what happens with TP's career.
DRob certainly did not enjoy the type of supporting casts that TD had in those le years.
Shaq had a better supporting cast then than what DRob enjoyed 1989-96.Who was Shaq's future HOF compadre in 95 or this year?
I haven't argued that DRob > Hakeem. Hakeem's supporting cast in '94 wasn't exactly worse than what DRob had about that time.Who was Hakeem's future HOF compadre in 94?
He took out Jordan's Bulls after MJ joined the team late in the season and hadn't played at all up until then.Shaq didnt win without Kobe but he got to the NBA Finals in his 3rd year in 95. He took out Jordan's bulls that year in the playoffs. He's made the Finals this year without Kobe.
Robinson never had that teammate like TD or Shaq did when they won championships. He never had the supporting cast that Shaq did in '95.Robinson never made the Finals as the #1 option on a team. He was to Duncan what Kobe was to Shaq or Pippen to MJ (a 2nd banana).
I think you underestimate significantly just how good DRob was as a one man show from 1989-96.If you ask NBA GM's if they would want DRob or Shaq in their primes, how many do you honestly think wouldnt take Shaq?
Duncan won a le in his second year in the NBA..Hakeem didn't. End of story. Duncan was paired with a broken Drob in his second year.
Hakeem was paired with Ralph Sampson.
Don't give me the age either...they were 34-35 years old...Jordan was 36 when he won his last le.
Three of the NBA's top 50....
you putting D-Rob ahead of Hakeem, well that's just dumb.
No...you're just dumb. Stupid ing RocketFan.
Hakeem's the easiest one to argue against..Hakeem didn't do that didn't David didn't except win some finals MVP's...best player on best team.
He was looking up at Drob in the standing every year of their careers together except like twice...
Drob had 5 IMB's and he's got a winning record against Hakeem. Simple as that.
Hakeem also couldn't even get his team to the playoffs one year.
That's a big black mark.
IF he's so ing good, how come he couldn't get his team to the playoffs smack dab in the middle of his prime?
They should call him 40 wins...because that's about all he was good for.
Even with 15 members of the top 50.
Yeah he finally won a couple of les...
After 15 chokes. In college, in the NBA.
Drob's judged by one ing series...in basically a 7 year career.
BTW, you weren't in here at the beginning don't come in here jumping stupidly on the 15th page. I don't want to hear this ...and if you have problem with the logic I am using now...there are about 40 other people that you need to start aruing with before me...because I just applying their logic to the other players.
So basically..
I don't give a about your opinion at this stage, Homer RocketFan. If you didn't have anything to say in the first 15 pages..then don't say it now, and if you are, you need to back and argue with the people making this stupid argument at the beginning.
Bottom line...people are applying being the best player on the best team, as being the best player over all...and it's stupid. It's just ing stupid.
Is Chauncey Billups better Garnett? He's got a finals MVP.
That's all Shaq and Hakeem have that David doesn't, and he's got a lot more that they don't have...and he beat them more than they beat him. Period. And he wasn't paired with top 50 player when he was doing it either.
Last edited by whottt; 06-11-2006 at 11:54 AM.
Back to the original argument of Drob vs. Shaq.
Let's forget all the team , the game stats, winning %.
Who would win betwen these two players in one-on-one?
That's a pretty easy question to answer even being a hypothetical scenario.
As far as their NBA careers. They both dominated their opposition a majority of the time, but with different physical attributes. Shaq had brute strength to barrel over his opponents. David had speed to get around them.
You can still argue that Shaq was more dominant just from a strength perspective, but Drob was the more skilled basketball player overall.
I don't know that it answers any of the larger questions, but I would definitely take David over Shaq in one on one.
Actually, that would be fun to watch.
I wanted to simplify the argument because too many variables have been brought into it. Who was the more skilled basketball player? I believe it's #50.
More skilled doesn't mean better
No, that's not the end of story. The Rockets played arguably the best champion ever in the 86 Celtics, whereas the 99 Spurs played the 8TH seeded Knicks ok. I don't think people are going to confuse Bird, McHale and Parish with Camby, Larry Johnson and Sprewell. And the 86 Rockets lost their point guard John Lucas to drugs, I don't recall the 99 Spurs losing anyone.
Big men tend to wear out faster than guards....
yeah, only some Finals MVPs, yeah that's no big thing....
Numbers don't tell the whole story
Hakeem held his own against D-Rob in the regular season, had a 45 point game against him, a 47 point game, props to david for winning more regular season games I guess. But I really like David's 2-4 record against Hakeem in the playoffs, you know when the games really count and the BEST players play their best, but I guess that doesn't matter to you.
Only a big black mark to you. not many non-Rockets fans except Hakeem haters like you even realized that happened.
His prime was from 93-97. Michael Jordan said it himself, Hakeem was a late bloomer, whottt the are you talking about here.
yeah a couple rings..no big deal
Using YOUR logic, D-Rob choked every year of his collegiate and professional career, using your LOGIC of course.
Hakeem wasn't paired with one either, you know that 1994 team that won it all, yet you still rank David higher?? cmon. Hakeem won a championship with no Top 50 sidekick. and that 86 team that lost to arguably greatest le team ever, no Top 50 teammates on that team either.
Your the only person I've read that put David ahead of Hakeem. I mean, one can make an argument for Duncan over Hakeem, Duncan's a stud, but David, gimme a break. Robinson didn't even have a post-up game, he always had to square up. Hakeem could do both. Hakeem had an unblocked fadeaway shot, david didn't have that. They were both equally good defensively, but Hakeem was a better offensive player, end of story.
I don't have time respond to anymore of this....I'll let the majority speak, you know, since Hakeem's name is always mentioned on the top 5 centers list and D-Rob's is not.
Last edited by JBIIRockets; 06-11-2006 at 01:42 PM.
If Hakeem was such a stud..."when it mattered" then how come his ass got bounced 7 ing times in the first round? Including about 5 years in a row in the late 80 and early 90's?
And so now not even making the playoffs doesn't matter?
Missing the playoffs doesn't matter?
I thought the playoffs were everything.
And thanks for mentioning that his prime lasted till 1997...that puts Barkley, he and Drexler all on the same team in his prime. Ass kicking.
Amazing what happens to a bigman when Robert Horry isn't there to hit last season game winners.
Look Rocket Fan...I realize, coming from choke city, Hakeem is the holy grail to you...that beautifull 2 year period, the only time Houston's asshole didn't pucker under pressure. Congrats...but that doesn't give you carte blanche to ignore the choking legacy of your team.
For the 1 trillionth time...when he made the finals, he had Ralph ing Sampson, Ralph ing Sampson hit the shot that put them into the finals.
Dude played 18 years...he played with Top 50 all time guards and PF's...he ought to have won a couple.
Lots of first round ass kickings...lots of first round sweeps...
Choked with the best college team ever assembled...twice.
C'mon playoff boy...tell me how he played when it mattered...the other 16 years of his career.
And don't you dare say he had bad teamates...
When you use the Finals MVP argument....you lose the right to pull the teamate card.
And don't you have lottery pick to go look for or something?
whottt, perhaps you've never heard of a guy named
david
robinson
Ahh when in doubt go to the "but so and so said" card...you are about the 20th person to say that...Colin Cowherd said...Wilbon said...
Those mother ers weren't watching Spurs games in the late 80's/early 90's.
People are ing stupid...people still call the Spurs boring and they got two of the best fast break guards in the NBA.
The voice of brilliance is a solitary voice old choker...the voice of stupidity is a common one.
You think a plurality understood Einstein the first time he was explaining his theory of relativity? You think he was speaking for the majority?
7 first round ass kickings for Mr. Dream...
How many's Garnett got?
I'll let you go to your flat earth meeting...mr everyone says.
whottt: but Shaq had Kobe...
idiot: so, Drob had AJ!
And people wonder why I am an asshole.
Last edited by whottt; 06-11-2006 at 02:35 PM.
I just wish you mother ers had been GM's when Drob was in his prime... we'd have been able to get Jordan, Magic and Bird for AJ and Vinny.
Lol
Seriously...these guys don't think adding Kobe Bryant to the 95 Spurs would count for anything. They honestly think we'd have still lost...
Then what cons ues better? That appears to be the bane of this debate.
The funny thing is earlier in this thread you yourself said Hakeem was clearly the #1 guy in the whole group.
Analysts dont have it in for the Spurs. They give Duncan props as one of the all-time greats. They annoint K. Malone as a top 15 player all-time even though he played for a weak media market like Utah. DRob just wasnt quite in that tier.
Out of O'Neal, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, and Shaq how can anyone possibly say DRob belongs in that group?
By the way, Otis Thorpe was a 14-10 player (career avg's). He made the all-star game once or twice (similar to Elliott). Very underrated player, but hardly a better 2nd banana than Elliott.
Putting aside what "people" say, the stats, rings, and resumes simply are stronger for O'Neal, Duncan and Hakeem than they are for David. Particularly the playoff stats, when anything of substance is actually on the line.
Answer me this: If Robinson's cast was so awful as you submit, why did the Spurs win 2 games against Houston in 95 while the Magic were swept by Houston (given that the matchup of Hakeem-Robinson was much more lopsided statistically than Hakeem-O'Neal)?
Then is Vlade Divac better than O'Neal? He clearly had more pure skill than Shaq. Brad Daugherty or Shaq?
You dont need as much pure skill when you have the athletic ability to dominate. DRob himself is proof of this as he relied mainly on his strength, quickness, speed, and wingspan to impact the game.
If the basis of the argument is brute strength wins out then Shaq wins, hands down.
Being 70 pounds heavier than your opponent does not cons ute "athletic ability".
When comparing these two players
who wins in a one-on-one matchup?
I'm not comparing what they did with their teams.
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