Grades: Spurs @ Clippers - Jan. 5, 2021

[Chinook]

Collapsing/ overhelping in today's game is so common that it is done by one of the best defenders in the game:



Overhelping/ collapsing is not as much a game plan than it just being a product or nuance of how the game is played today. The nature of today's game is spacing and drive and kick. You either help defend that drive or not and it's an easy layup.

You need players who are quick enough to recover or smart enough/ instinctual enough to deflect the pass.

Collapsing itself isn't a problem. The Spurs have a major issue with helping "one pass away" where they give up an easy assist by having the closest guy jump off his man to try to bother the shot. Usually, you want to do two passes away so you have time to rotate. I have no idea why SA does it that way. People have pointed it out before, and it doesn't surprise me that opponents can go off from there with the looks the Spurs are giving them. Pop's done a fine job keeping the level of intensity, and I'd say the guys are responding to his personnel groupings way better than last year. But the little schematic things like that rotation baffle me. No idea why he's coaching them to do that.

[Dejounte]

Collapsing itself isn't a problem. The Spurs have a major issue with helping "one pass away" where they give up an easy assist by having the closest guy jump off his man to try to bother the shot. Usually, you want to do two passes away so you have time to rotate. I have no idea why SA does it that way. People have pointed it out before, and it doesn't surprise me that opponents can go off from there with the looks the Spurs are giving them. Pop's done a fine job keeping the level of intensity, and I'd say the guys are responding to his personnel groupings way better than last year. But the little schematic things like that rotation baffle me. No idea why he's coaching them to do that.

That's not something I've noticed myself. Do you (or anyone reading this) have an example clip? Doesn't have to be the Spurs.

[Chinook]

That's not something I've noticed myself. Do you (or anyone reading this) have an example clip? Doesn't have to be the Spurs.

So this is a vid that Coach Nick at BBB did about the topic:



So basically when a guy is driving, it shouldn't be the first strong-side defender who commits to help, because it's really easy to drop off the pass to the shooter. So in that Murray gif, Bev helped one pass away, but he did so because he didn't respect DeRozan's jumper. The Spurs do that all the time, even against guys who can shoot. It's maddening.

[Seventyniner]

Some food for thought: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...re-copying-it/

Summary: the Bucks actually give up a ton of three-point attempts, as measured by the percentage of shots their opponents take that are threes.
Disclaimer: I don't watch the Bucks much at all, and I haven't paid any attention to their defensive schemes.

Still, it does seem that collapsing the paint and allowing threes is a viable strategy if you have the right personnel. This Spurs team has enough switchable athletes on the wings (and finally got rid of the enormous defensive liabilities of Forbes and Belinelli), plus decent (Aldridge) to good (Poeltl) rim protection that the Bucks scheme might work, at least on paper.

I do appreciate the discussion about where the help comes from. Again, I haven't watched the Bucks much and not with an eye to their defensive schemes, but I would imagine they do a great job not just of helping but helping from the right places and off the right shooters.

[Seventyniner]

Aside: I am watching GS/LAC and I am very impressed with the Dubs color/commentary team. They try to be balanced (usually successful) and openly acknowledge wanting the Warriors to win.

The other opposing teams' crews have been very annoying so far. I have listened to the Grizz, Lakers, and Clippers crews and found them varying degrees of insufferable. Bill and Sean are probably not much better, but I'm biased here and like listening to them.

I remember enjoying the Wolves' crew in past years. Hopefully they haven't changed and I can listen to them for this weekend's games.

Another aside: tonight is the first game (out of 9) in which the Clippers have neither led nor trailed by 20. Seems crazy, but that might be one of those kinds of things that is more common than it seems.

[Sugus]

So this is a vid that Coach Nick at BBB did about the topic:



So basically when a guy is driving, it shouldn't be the first strong-side defender who commits to help, because it's really easy to drop off the pass to the shooter. So in that Murray gif, Bev helped one pass away, but he did so because he didn't respect DeRozan's jumper. The Spurs do that all the time, even against guys who can shoot. It's maddening.

Damn, I didn't know this had a different name other than general "overhelping". This is exactly what I've been seeing and complaining about every game. Thanks for the content, my guy

[XDT76]

Dejounte "not a PG" Murray





These were clutch passes that would have given us a comfortable lead. Too bad Rudy blew it.

This was really a head shaking moment a 6ft8 missing dunk below the rim while being open.

[Dejounte]

So this is a vid that Coach Nick at BBB did about the topic:



So basically when a guy is driving, it shouldn't be the first strong-side defender who commits to help, because it's really easy to drop off the pass to the shooter. So in that Murray gif, Bev helped one pass away, but he did so because he didn't respect DeRozan's jumper. The Spurs do that all the time, even against guys who can shoot. It's maddening.

Thanks for posting. I noticed in the clips he provided that there was a common denominator: they were mostly playing small. Could it be the one pass away is implemented (if it is at all and not actual lack of discipline) because we don't have an adequate interior presence at times? Could it be that those who do guard one pass away, fail to instinctively jab step (as shown in the video) and commit way too much? Also, which teams do you think do this (one pass away) the least? I guess that would be an extremely hard metric to track.

[NASpurs]

[r0drig0lac]

where to check how the team is doing compared to the rest of the league?

[dbestpro]

When Pop had TD and DRob, he always talked about crowding the shooters, ply the passing lanes, and make them go to the basket to the shot blockers.

[NASpurs]

where to check how the team is doing compared to the rest of the league?

Has to be this unless I'm misreading the stats

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/oppo...=FG3_PCT&dir=1

[TD 21]

It doesn't surprise me that a lot of people believe good defense is physical. But it does surprise me that a lot of Spurs fans currently still believe that.

It is in certain cases, like the one we're discussing.

I'm not particularly addressing you. I am addressing the sentiment that being able to absorb Leonard's contact is really important or that in general defense is dependent on initiating and absorbing contact. Someone like White is not too small to guard Leonard. You don't need to be this big engulfing dude he can't push off or whatever. It helps to be solid physically to take that away, but being able to anticipate moves and beat him to his spots and interfere with passing lanes and navigating screens and a lot of other things matter more. Moreover, of all the players in the league, a designated Leonard defender is so irrelevant. Just guard him with someone and live with the results. Just don't give up easy looks to shooters.

It is or it's an uncontested mid range pull up or at the rim and increases the possibilities of an and-1.

Again, White is a possible exception. The Green's and Caldwell-Pope's of the world don't stand a chance.

Doesn't matter if you can't hold your ground.

Moreso about his archtype.

Far easier to accomplish when you have a credible initial defender.