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Playing like a wing sized big man right now. Brandon Clarke comes to mind.
Nah, I think Renfro's mindset on offense and his lack of ability to create offense for himself will prevent him from being a SF in a line-up.
Renfro's mindset right now consists of him believing "there's better shooters than me, so I'm open but I'm going to pass it to the other open guy."
He doesn't have a broken looking shot. If he was relied on more consistently each game to shoot, then I have no doubt he would develop into a consistent catch and shoot player.
Think of Renfro as similar to Poeltl right now in terms of role... Nate doesn't have the same interior presence as Renfro, but Renfro is much more dangerous getting the ball from the perimeter because he's explosive when he's attacking the basket. Unlike Poeltl, Renfro hovers on the perimeter waiting for a pass because he trusts his ability to shoot the ball or create a shot for others by finding the open man.
Playing like a wing sized big man right now. Brandon Clarke comes to mind.
Yeah, but Clarke is 6’8” with a 6’8” wingspan. Renfro has a 7’1” wingspan. That trait affects your ability to block sots and steal and deflect balls. The Draymond comparison is closer.
So Renfro is yet another 4? That might be why the Spurs haven't given him a shot yet: the Spurs are suddenly looking loaded at that position. I was more thinking of Renfro's position on defense than offense anyway. Being a non-shooter means the opponent would likely hide their weakest defender on him regardless of position.
Still, from looking at the stats he's a putrid shooter, so for now "better shooters than me" would include all 9 of the other players on the floor and at least 2 of the refs. That would make playing the 3 even more difficult because he would probably need shooters at both the 4 and 5, which is hard to come by. Maaaaybe for a few minutes per game he could be a microball 5 because he can block shots (though from what little I've seen he seems like more of a weakside shotblocker than straight-up contester like Poeltl), but it looks like he would be mainly a 4.
Thanks for the comments and consideration. I know you have watched the games, so if you say his form is fixable I will take your word for it. Renfro seems like such an intriguing prospect that my mind immediately jumps to ways he could fit with the big squad. Becoming a respectable shooter would go a long way towards an NBA career for him and is the most important step he could take.
The only reason I brought up Draymond is that Renfro's stats/measurements and such look like the same "great passer/defender, poor shooter" archetype.
The idea of Renfro was more sought after before Luka was called up to the main team and before guys went down due to COVID.
When they played together, Luka and Renfro on the g-league team played 5 and 4 respectively. That line-up gave other teams fits.
At the time, Luka didn't guard the perimeter as much as he has displayed now. That is why Renfro was being looked at as a guy who can join the main team and become a back-up 4 whenever Luka slides over to 5. It could still happen, but I think it diminishes Luka's newfound strength guarding 4's in the NBA and will force him to guard 5's instead (and hang out in the paint where he is not that great at yet)
Renfro could still turn out to be useful, but I think we would need to get rid of a lot of depth at the 4 as you said.
Sorry. To be clear, a center who passes on the dribble is not particularly nifty. Teams don't need their centers to do that, so without a foundation to make him an NBA player, it doesn't help. I'm obviously not rooting against the guy, but I feel like his bubble is getting way too big based on his performance. He shouldn't be compared to Diaw or Green. That would be true if Renfro were doing it in garbage time in the NBA, but it's significantly more true given that it's in the g-league, where he basically has no size or skill disadvantage.
Renfro's in a tough spot.
He can't (currently) be a Dray in the league, because he can't defend an NBA C like Dray. Dray has at least 30 lbs on Nate, and knows how to use it (and gets a LOT of la ude from the refs). Without shooting, he can't play 4 in this league...
Tough spot... He's a long term project at best.
When I see Renfro's passing, I see him more as a guy who has an NBA-level BBIQ rather than a special play-maker. There's NOTHING wrong with that. He has an NBA body (or close depending on if he is a big or a wing), and an NBA brain. The reason why he gets so many assists is because he knows where guys are supposed to be and how to pass the ball to leverage a defender. In the NBA, that would translate to some heady passes, yes, but it'd probably more manifest in opportunistic cuts/dives/duck-ins and screens, and on defense as deflections, rotations and charges drawn. All well and dandy, and general comments about foundation noted, that's exciting enough.
What I don't think folks should do is expect that to translate directly, see the uniqueness if it did and project him as this weapon or compare him to the relative unicorns who managed to do that at the highest level. That's what creates this bubble where folks want to overlook the flaws of a guy who doesn't seem very capable of scoring at a level where basically every NBA player should be able to score. In today's league, it's very important to have five "live" guys on the court at once, and it won't be easy to have Renfro on the court if he can't be that. It certainly doesn't help that he probably can't play the five in the NBA like he can in the d-league. The farther down the positional ladder you go, the harder it is to get away with bad scoring. Deflections might be a constant thing, but block numbers also fall down pretty sharply as you move down. A rim-protecting SF usually pales in comparison to a rim-protecting center. As that defensive impact wanes and the offensive strengths get blunted, the net benefit he provides to the court also goes down.
Yeah, that's basically what I was saying in that long-winded post below. Renfro might be a positive player with a good corner-three, but he's not going to be the play-maker of a unit without more scoring skill than that. You aren't going to have him on the court with guys like Murray, White or DeRozan and want him to be the guy setting folks up and going for assists.
And which centers currently in the NBA pass off the bounce? I’m not talking one dribble, then hand off. I’m talking handling the ball for, say, more than 4 moving dribbles, assessing the situation, and making the right read and pass.
Likely, more of them have the skill to do so than you'd assume. Centers don't pass off the bounce because there are guards to do that for them. Imagine White, Murray and DeRozan standing there watching Renfro try to dribble past a static defense and kick it out. I can't imagine how bad ST would blow a gasket at that.
Centers driving and passing is like PGs posting up. Sure it's a skill, and in the right context can actually be really helpful. But it's not close to being a real selling point for a guy without the basics also being there.
How many Gubble games did you watch that you can say he is without the basics? He lacks exactly one, shooting, and we kinda have the best coach for that.
BTW, centers who can dribble/shoot/pass are a of a lot more relevant than guards who can post up in today’s game. Post up guards used to be valued, because that used to matter in the context of that era.
Goodluck playing Renfro at center at 205. Bryn and Lonnie are 205. And point guards who post up are the most valuable commodity in the NBA see Luka, Bron.
Lonnie’s not 205. May have been at one point, but not now. If you look at Devin, that’s 205. Renfro is both taller and bulkier by a lot. He’s not 205. He’s at least 220. We’d also be talking bench minutes.
Scoring. Shooting being his only weakness implies he can drive and get to the line and all of that but that he can't hit an outside shot. Renfro isn't a threat on offense. That's a huge problem. Him being able to pass is basically irrelevant if he can't score for reasons I've probably said a few times already. Again, the reason why you don't see many bigs drive and pass at the NBA level isn't because no one could do it; it's because having a center do it is a waste of resources. Can you devise a team where a driving and passing center could be good? Yes. But A) That's not anywhere close to the Spurs as constructed and B) That driving center still needs to be a scoring threat, because he won't move the defense enough to create open shots.
Posting up is still really valuable for a point guard. The assumed superior ball-handling and vision means a PG should be able to play out of doubles better, and in a spread system, you can more easily pull out all shot-blockers from the paint. But it isn't and never was good enough to be the sole offensive benefit for a player. Of course, posting up does entail a string of other skills, so it's more generous than a driving center. But the point remains that having a rare skill as the only notable thing on offense isn't a huge benefit.
Like "Oh no, I don't have a center that can drive. Whatever will I do besides just have my guards, wings and forwards do it instead?"
So, no games watched then...
For a guy that was Team Thuybulle, you sure seem real reluctant to bring in a larger version, with handles and court vision.
I was Team Clarke, and you know it. I actually didn't want to draft Thybulle at all. You're confusing me saying that in retrospect he would've been a fine pick with me saying that I don't think he's a limited player or something. That's true even considering he's playing NBA minutes and not being passive in the d-league like Renfro is. It's weird that you believe the production will just transfer over like that.
And I'm not reluctant to bring in Renfro, especially on a 10-day. But I do think you and others keep harping on skills that don't really contribute to winning positional basketball.
Renfro doesn't score. I don't need to "watch games" to know that. Simply put, even guys who are pass-first NBA players are dominant scorers in the d-league. I'm not even asking for that, though. Him being a moderate scorer would actually evidence the completeness of his game.
If Bruce Bowen can be taught to hit a 3, then Renfro can too. Renfro has WAY more offensive potential than Bruce ever did, and Renfro has the athletic ability to cover 1-4. You can switch everything, he plays the same type of passing game from the top of the key like Bam in Miami and Thad Young in Chicago, and you have got to love his unselfishness! He impacts winning without having the ball married to his hands! He doesn't need to average 20pts a night to be an X factor for whether you won the game or not.
While you're not talking to me, yeah, I was good with drafting Thybulle, and I'm a lot more sceptical with Renfro. Thybulle was setting all time records for Defense numbers; Renfro's good, but not that good.
I agree that Renfro with a jumpshot is a NBA player for sure, and potentially very useful. I will believe in his jumpshot when he actually starts taking and making them...
Perfectly understandable. When Gubble is over would love him up on the big club on a 10 day and roll from there.
Yeah I don't think anyone is saying "He is going to be our next Starter' I think he has Potential that will need to fostered and grown to reach his peak. A lot of People didn't like us drafting Luka "Potential" cough cough - Chinook- But look at our boy he is looking GOOD.
So the most I am hoping is a two way contract if he can get some offense we are Golden and if not well move on to the next Project
The issue with that is that we have 2 2-way spots. Currently Weatherspoon and KBD. Weatherspoon's probably gone this summer - but his contract likely goes to our 2nd round pick... Would you rather have KBD or Renfro? KBD is definitely better now...Yeah I don't think anyone is saying "He is going to be our next Starter' I think he has Potential that will need to fostered and grown to reach his peak. A lot of People didn't like us drafting Luka "Potential" cough cough - Chinook
So the most I am hoping is a two way contract if he can get some offense we are Golden and if not well move on to the next Project
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