It's become a thing.
A winning strategy by Spurs opponents.
Not at all the say it was the whole cause of Detroit.
That was a Benny Hill production.
Poeltl might go down as the most overrated Spurs player ever...
I was a fan of his signing but that was when I thought he had some upside and his offensive game would have some upside...it doesn't...
We will be a better team when we replace him with another center who isn't the worst freethrow shooter in the league and can do anything on offense beside miss half of ever wide open flip shot he takes
From what I have seen, the spurs are a better team when he is on the floor. Good defense/rebounding and can finish around the basket. He only becomes an issue when teams figure out they can foul him and break the Spur's momentum. And that does not always happen. Now in a playoff series you are screwed as it will happen constantly, but in the regular season he is an adequate center for a team in transition like SA.
As I wrote in another thread some days ago, now is the time to trade him.
Good player on a great contract, but he'll ask for a lot more money in the summer when he's up for an extension and he's not worth it.
This roster needs a big who can stretch the floor and Poeltl won't be able to stay on the floor in the playoffs when teams start hacking him.
Which is fine if he's just another role player, but not if he's one of the key pieces.
We got that in Landale besides that it's not like there is a Great Center who can also hit the 3 ball on every corner - and if their was it would probably be a MAX type of contract we would have to take.
If you want that player then pray we get the number 1 pick this year to use on Smith or Chet other then that there is not one Center who you are looking for in this draft.
This is what every "Trade Jakob" poster will never get. Yes, the $9m/per center has limitations. Yes, it'd be awesome to have a C who could do all the things Jakob does, and also shoot 3's, and midrange shots, and dunk with authority...
You know how many C's in the league can do that that I can think of? One: AD. And he's a s of himself now. Giannis at the 5 can do it but he's a PF truly. Ayton too, now that I think about it - and here comes the issue. A C who could do what ST desires would easily cost a Max contract. SA would not be able to trade for him (which team would willingly give up such a player, and how would SA beat out the other offers? And why would said C even want to come here?). The only answer is to draft him.... And even then, it's hardly a certainty in the modern, diva-filled NBA.
I've said before and will say it again - you don't make trades just to do something, and the only player archetype worth trading out Jak for, is a #1 pick in any single draft (Ayton, KAT, AD, all #1 picks). I'd love for that to happen, and would happily demote Jakob to the bench if we got that player. Since we don't though, and probably won't for quite some time... I'd love for people to stop scapegoating Jakob, and actually face the reality of the team:
This is what I'm talking about. No, the team doesn't need a big who stretches the floor - what for, so Lonnie can sheepishly drive into unforced TOs? So Keldon still drives into 2 defenders (thank God it's only 2 and not 3 though!) and cough up the ball in ill-advised shots? So DJ still drives into a long pullup 2 repeatedly when the team needs 3's to come back into the game? So McDermott has some more space to cut to the basket, something he already does well? So Vassell can do whatever he does when he's not defending, since he so often disappears like Lonnie and begets his status as a building block? Landale being exactly that -a shooting 5- and still not making a difference in the Spurs' losing to a D-league Pistons is proof of this.
No..... The team needs talent. At all positions. There's no "this roster needs..." that doesn't end with "talent". It's that simple. I don't really see any of the players on the team right now being significant contributors to the Spurs' next ring ( , even WCF appearence). I don't see any of the positions being set, except for maybe PG with DJ.
So yeah, the team needs a shooting C... And also a real PF. And an actual SF that has both size, lateral speed, and shooting ability, which none of the "SFs" on our team have. And a real SG that isn't scared to shoot the ball, or afraid of contact, or isn't 18 years old lol. In other words: talent.
Jak needs a complimentary 4 to play with which will make that contract look even better. We don’t need a C who shoots 3s if we have a veratile 4 who stretches the floor better and this draft has multiple possible long term solutions for that.
He does need to start hitting free throws at a better rate and work on finishing around the rim; those both appear to be more mental issues.
Let's say everything you just said is spot on -- and I'd take issue with several of your characterizations above -- you cannot deny he's basically unplayable in a playoff setting when it matters most (up until the final 2 minutes of the game).
His FT shooting percentage alone is disqualifying to be the kind of player you seem to think he is, or that the Spurs need. They need a lot of different players but a starting Center that can shoot (FTs and pretty much any other shot beyond 5 ft) the ball has got to be at the top of the list.
What people don’t understand is any better center (non-star) you replace Poeltl with will bring marginal improvement to the team’s wins and will probably cost twice as expensive. There’s bigger fish to fry than Poeltl. He’s not the guy causing the team to lose games they should be winning.
Both of these posts are a perfect answer to each other. Is Jakob the guy who can take you deep in a playoff runs? Maybe not. Can you replace him with a C that can take you there, without having a #1 pick or insane drafting luck? Also no.
Like seriously, people, start posting all these defensive-but-also-shooting C's who are up on the trade market and want to come down to good ol' SanAn. Maybe we can get Wrong's email address and pitch him up or something?
Lastly, disagree re: top of the list. An actual PF is unequivocally top of the list, we literally have no players on the roster who are "actually" a PF. KBD is a big wing, Keldon a small-but-sturdy wing, Landale too slow to play anything but C. Literally, no actual PFs on the roster, yet a C (a coveted, sought-after, rare archetype one at that) is "top of the list"? Hmm...
Except that his defense is what is widely praised and rightfully so given his offensive game is so limited, he's been getting outplayed by many of his counterparts lately, including last night by Luka Garza, the **52nd pick in last year's draft**
We can put these individual games under a magnifying glass all we want, but the truth is all players have bad games and it’s like a pendulum swinging one way or the other any given night— most folks come out and “bravely” call out poor games such as last night but aren’t around to say the same thing when he has great nights.
I'm not just critiquing in the dark. I've posited a trade for Valanciunas which would be a huge upgrade at the Center position. Now whether or not it's him, or another player really matters not. You either upgrade your position or take advantage of his contract and get picks or assets back.Both of these posts are a perfect answer to each other. Is Jakob the guy who can take you deep in a playoff runs? Maybe not. Can you replace him with a C that can take you there, without having a #1 pick or insane drafting luck? Also no.
Like seriously, people, start posting all these defensive-but-also-shooting C's who are up on the trade market and want to come down to good ol' SanAn. Maybe we can get Wrong's email address and pitch him up or something?
Lastly, disagree re: top of the list. An actual PF is unequivocally top of the list, we literally have no players on the roster who are "actually" a PF. KBD is a big wing, Keldon a small-but-sturdy wing, Landale too slow to play anything but C. Literally, no actual PFs on the roster, yet a C (a coveted, sought-after, rare archetype one at that) is "top of the list"? Hmm...
You do that because this team is clearly not going anywhere as currently structured. And if you're on team tank then you know that. You're either getting better or you're standing pat. He's just not that guy and never will be.
He'll I'd be more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for long term plans if he'd just show some dog at least once a game instead of once a month or so.
Yes, he has good games. I haven't denied that nor tried to run from it. But if we use your pendulum example, his game is pretty ing average (speaking of his defense and offense combined) over the long arc of that pendulum's tick-tock. In fact he's below average based on PER which I see many of you guys undermine as a player's skill gauge, but you never provide a better one. And that becomes especially true when he doesn't have a point guard that can facilitate his game because he's got next to no offensive generation of his own. And to make it worse, his FT% is getting worse, he's getting outmatched by late second round rookies, and the game's better centers lately. So yes, he'll have more good games but look at his play now when the team needs him to step up.
Why is it only his detractors being asked to look at his upside when he has good games and not his overall impact as the starting center on a team 7 games below .500? Why is it us being told we're overlooking the real truth?
yes, his FT shooting is abysmal, and i have no explanation on how we managed to regress again compared to end of last season.
but all this talk about being unplayable in playoffs is bs. a game is 48 minutes, and your lineup cannot win it in the first 46 minutes?
Yak isn't carrying any team to a ring. but surprisingly, neither has Embiid. so when you have no PF whatsoever on the roster, a SG that doesn't shoot, and a SF who's primary feat is being small, you really focus on your flawed C to turn it around?
I'm absolutely aware that you can (should) sell high on players when your team is in a situation like the Spurs'. I myself was literally advocating for selling high on Dejounte like two weeks ago. What you don't seem to understand is that, unlike Dejounte, there's not bound to be a lot of interest on the trade market for Jakob, so the opportunity cost of selling off on him (and get maybe a late FRP and meh prospect, if even) isn't really worth the loss of the glue holding the Spurs' defense in place night-in, night-out. The same can be said for Dejounte's presence on the other side of the ball, btw, which is why I was bittersweet on selling him off, but in that case, his gaudy stats and archetypical value made the Opp cost ratio much better.
Valanciunas wouldn't be a "huge upgrade" at C, FWIW. He's marginally better - significantly better on offense, but considerably worse on defense, which ends up cancelling itself out, unless you have the personnel to shore up one weakness or the other (the Spurs, as I've said, have neither). So why even bother wasting resources (because you can bet the Pels aren't going to happily drop their 18ppg, perfect-Zion-pairing center for free) for a marginal upgrade (just so you know, and I know PER sucks as a catch-all but it's relevant in this case, Jonas' PER is 1.0 whilst Jak's is 0.4), when the team has much bigger holes to plug?
Again, this is what the "trade Jakob" camp will never get. I can present this to you any way you want - but at the end of the day, Jak has "no dog" to you, and that's unappealable and beyond reasoning. He just Has To Go.
Preach it, brother
Only because the players behind him are Landale (a rookie)... Eubanks (trash)... Young ( doesn't play)...
His defense is VASTLY overrated because any big that plays with a pulse completely destroys him. He got significantly outplayed and out hustled by Garza last night. Teams don't really even look to foul him since he doesn't really do anything on offense but his little flip shot and the occasional dunk.
If Zach Collins is even 60% of what he was in Portland when he does play he will be significantly better than a center who can't put up numbers against the worst team in the nba WHILE having half the roster be 10 day contract guys. Pathetic.
I just want us to make the offer to max Ayton. I actually wanted Bridges from the Suns and for us to offer him the max but they seemingly chose him over Ayton. Make Sarver go into the tax and if they bounce early in the playoffs then I doubt he matches.
This would be a good argument if I was trying to blame the Spurs woes entirely on Poeltl which I'm not. I'm firmly in the camp of getting assets back in whatever way you can when you can. I've advocated trading pretty much the entire roster outside of Murray, Vassell, and Primo since summer to expedite our rebuild. I recently backed off that for KJ when it appeared he magically began to shoot with a high 3PT%. Not sure it's real though. I do know he's horribly undersized trying to play the 4 so his only value is at the 3, IF HE CAN SHOOT.
On the caveat that I, too, want the Spurs to throw Ayton a max, this is never gonna happen, brother. The literal definition of a pipedream. Suns' owner is an idiot, but even he knows you can't let your recently drafted, homegrown, pluripotential, Finals-berth-starting C walk for nothing, and not expect to be forced out the very same day. Sarver's absolutely trying to weasel out of paying Ayton what he deserves, hoping no other team dares to max him and he can get a discount rate (which is why I want the Spurs to him over), but in no universe does he let him walk (to the Suns' main rival, no less!) without matching that offer.
If the Spurs want an Ayton-calibre center, they'll have to get their hands dirty and look for it in the mud of the draft. I have no doubts about it.
Vall would be INFINITELY better than Poeltl. It would change the makeup of our entire offense. We would go from a big who can do virtually everything offensively AND make his freethrows to a big who can't do anything offensively and can't make his freethrows. Stats don't get much worst than PER...which you called out...and then tried to use it anyway to marginalize Val against PoeltlI'm absolutely aware that you can (should) sell high on players when your team is in a situation like the Spurs'. I myself was literally advocating for selling high on Dejounte like two weeks ago
Valanciunas wouldn't be a "huge upgrade" at C, FWIW. He's marginally better - significantly better on offense, but considerably worse on defense, which ends up cancelling itself out, unless you have the personnel to shore up one weakness or the other (the Spurs, as I've said, have neither). So why even bother wasting resources (because you can bet the Pels aren't going to happily drop their 18ppg, perfect-Zion-pairing center for free) for a marginal upgrade (just so you know, and I know PER sucks as a catch-all but it's relevant in this case, Jonas' PER is 1.0 whilst Jak's is 0.4), when the team has much bigger holes to plug?
Again, this is what the "trade Jakob" camp will never get. I can present this to you any way you want - but at the end of the day, Jak has "no dog" to you, and that's unappealable and beyond reasoning. He just Has To Go.. I don't see how anybody could watch these two play basketball and not be able to tell that one is significantly better than the other.
And the only other problem for the spurs that is larger than having a center who doesn't do anything but "protect" the rim, and even that completely disappears as soon as the other big does something beside stand around flat footed, is the fact that we don't have a power forward on this team and we won't for as long as McDermott is here...since Pop is going to start him and Keldon, which forces Keldon to be the starting 4 cause McDermott would be even worse there defensively than Keldon is
OK, so there are bigger problems? Good to know.Vall would be INFINITELY better than Poeltl. It would change the makeup of our entire offense. We would go from a big who can do virtually everything offensively AND make his freethrows to a big who can't do anything offensively and can't make his freethrows. Stats don't get much worst than PER...which you called out...and then tried to use it anyway to marginalize Val against Poeltl
And the only other problem for the spurs that is larger than having a center who doesn't do anything but "protect" the rim, and even that completely disappears as soon as the other big does something beside stand around flat footed, is the fact that we don't have a power forward on this team and we won't for as long as McDermott is here...since Pop is going to start him and Keldon, which forces Keldon to be the starting 4 cause McDermott would be even worse there defensively than Keldon is
Again, I understand the difference between Val and Jak, but you absolutely overstate the impact it'd have on the team. Case in point, Jock being there for the Pistons loss (and many others). A shooting 5, in a vacuum (that is, without taking into account the defensive dropoff (which you fail to even consider since you're so fixated on hyperbolizing Jak's "bad defense" which literally no stats back up, quite the opposite)), isn't solving this Spurs team's issues nor making them a contender of any sort.
Lastly, you're able to go on and on about Jak's shortcomings... Now tell me again why other teams would like him? You know that, for "selling high" to work, you gotta be able to sell, right? The market right now is very cautios due to the COVID situation, and even still, an old-school C isn't exactly the most coveted archetype. Again, Jak is worth more to the Spurs than he is to other teams, and shipping him off crumbles the Spurs without solving any other issues (unless you're literally talking about a straight-up Val for Jak deal, which is not happening lol).
I'll say it again: I can present this to you any way you want - but at the end of the day, Jak has "no dog" to you, and that's unappealable and beyond reasoning. He just Has To Go.
Just thought I’d mention, that’s VORP.
For PER, Jonas is at 22, Poeltl at 19. That’s in agreement with your argument, tho, it isn’t some huge difference.
Jonas is on a $14M contract, increasing to $15.4M in two years. That is not out of line with what the Spurs have been paying for players. Gay was at $14M and Patty at $13.5M, their last contracts here, and McD is at $13.750M. Jonas is financially feasible, according to what the Spurs have been doing - as far as just his cost goes.
What is not feasible is the huge logjam at center. It’s a mess. Poeltl, Eubanks, Landale, Zollins, and add Thad to that, since the Spurs can only find time for him at C.
That’s 1/3 of the roster, 5 players. At center. It’s absurd. Who s ched together this crazy quilt roster? Never mind, no need to go into all that.
To get a better center, such as Jonas, Poeltl would have to go. Poeltl’s contract is too much for a backup, in today’s NBA. The contract price of a backup center is running about $2M now, but Poeltl is at $8.750M and increasing next year. It’s financially unreasonable to keep him at backup.
To really make the team better, with a better center, Poeltl has to go, but so do Eubanks and Thad - for playable forwards, I would hope - as the new center comes in. It appears to me, anyway.
Jakob is a solid player at the center. He would actually be a great fit during the Duncan era. He would also be a great fit on a le team like the Bucks, Nets, Lakers.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
