SCOTUS Poised to Overturn Roe v Wade per leaked opinion

[CosmicCowboy]

The US government criminalizes the possession, selling, manufacturing and transportation of controlled substances, not their consumption.

Even in the case of DUI, the penalty is for being intoxicated while driving, not because you consumed.

Thanks for that. Its a good point.

[DMC]

Roe was analyzed and decided as a solomonic decision when you have two competing legal and valid rights, and while it can be argued it wasn't a perfect solution, it did give each party a period of time to exercise those rights. It happened with abortion, it could've happened (and has happened) with a number of other rights.

As much as he rambles about Roe and Casey not being based on solid law, his own opinion is not rooted in solid law either. Lots of things weren't "tradition" in the late 1700's. And some of those "traditions" from back then are now strictly illegal and still cons utional.

What he's trying to demolish was upheld by not one but two different SCOTUS, so you would think the bar here would be heightened, but apparently it isn't.

Anyways, not the final decision as far as we know, so I don't think it's worth spending that much time on it.

Perhaps, but the mob and much of the nation/world will feel that the pressure applied led to the favorable outcome.

The problem (imo) with RvW is that it pits two "good" intentions against one another - the good intention of preserving the sanc y of human life vs the good intention of preserving the freedom of human life. Eventually it seems we have to admit one or the other isn't that special, however in reality it's not about value. It's about choice. We might disagree with the choice but nature insists on it, and the abortion could happen with or without assistance.

[Ef-man]

WTF!?

[DMC]

WTF!?

https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/7033

[Spurminator]

Conservatives and liberals alike do IVF procedures where embryos are harvested and then discarded or abandoned for reasons ranging from genetic disorders to having a less desirable eye color.

We don't have funerals for miscarried fetuses. We don't treat them with any of this "sanc y of life" mush unless it's as an argument for why women should be required to carry them for 40 weeks as recourse for doing the dirty sinful deed of having sex.

[DMC]

Conservatives and liberals alike do IVF procedures where embryos are harvested and then discarded or abandoned for reasons ranging from genetic disorders to having a less desirable eye color.

We don't have funerals for miscarried fetuses. We don't treat them with any of this "sanc y of life" mush unless it's as an argument for why women should be required to carry them for 40 weeks as recourse for doing the dirty sinful deed of having sex.

It doesn't matter what "we" do. That's the point. It's not a community decision, but an individual one. The argument over the value of life is separate from the right to have dominion over your own body aka autonomy. Autonomy is a major reason we value our lives and by extension, the lives of others. A proponent for prolife could show ways we fight to save a fetus while a prochoice proponent could show ways we ignore the fetus to serve other needs.

Besides, I'm sure many women mourn miscarriages, despite the perceived social apathy.

[ChumpDumper]

Many criminalize miscarriages. What good intention does that promote?

[Spurminator]

It doesn't matter what "we" do. That's the point. It's not a community decision, but an individual one. The argument over the value of life is separate from the right to have dominion over your own body aka autonomy. Autonomy is a major reason we value our lives and by extension, the lives of others. A proponent for prolife could show ways we fight to save a fetus while a prochoice proponent could show ways we ignore the fetus to serve other needs.

It certainly illustrates a selective range of concern for the unborn. And it absolutely matters if we're going to codify when someone's right to life begins. We won't get to pick and choose which fetuses we give a about anymore.

Besides, I'm sure many women mourn miscarriages, despite the perceived social apathy.

Obviously. But rarely to the same degree they'd mourn a child who died after birth.

[DMC]

It certainly illustrates a selective range of concern for the unborn. And it absolutely matters if we're going to codify when someone's right to life begins. We won't get to pick and choose which fetuses we give a about anymore.



Obviously. But rarely to the same degree they'd mourn a child who died after birth.

Or at age 5 after a long battle with leukemia.

It's a mistake to try to codify the value of life. We should instead secure the right to life and the right to bodily autonomy, and leave value to religion. If someone doesn't want to abort, they shouldn't be required to. There are too many inconsistencies within the legal system regarding where life begins vs value of that life. An expecting mother can consume alcohol and drugs and damage the baby, and that's not illegal. The mother can even damage herself so much as to either kill the fetus or render it unviable. That's also her choice, because taking that away from her really only amounts to punishing her after the fact. So it's her choice whether anyone likes it or not. The discussion then should be about how she moves forward after making that choice, and what's the outcome. A bar will serve drinks to a pregnant woman, it's not illegal. They cannot serve drinks to a minor legally. So the law is already built with the notion that the unborn does not have individuality even if it could survive outside the womb.

I think it's a bigger philosophical discussion that needs to be had with the stakeholders, and the woman's autonomy should not hang in the balance waiting for a decision.

[leemajors]

Barbarians.

[ChumpDumper]

Barbarians.

That's an anti-abortion activist.

Nathan

[Ef-man]

That's an anti-abortion activist.

Nathan

[ChumpDumper]

Pick a lane, Trump s.

[SnakeBoy]

Just a few more pages of discussion and ST will get this issued resolved

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I find it ironic that the American church both protestant and catholic is driving this and they are the worst when it comes to pedophelia.

[SnakeBoy]

I find it ironic that the American church both protestant and catholic is driving this and they are the worst when it comes to pedophelia.

I find it ironic that libs are protesting/disrupting Catholic masses in deep blue districts where Catholics vote overwhelmingly for Dems

[pgardn]

I find it ironic that libs are protesting/disrupting Catholic masses in deep blue districts where Catholics vote overwhelmingly for Dems

I find your arguments have the backing of tissue morality.

Step up to the plate and adopt a kid from a woman you and others have convinced to "save the life."

Im sure the majority of women who have abortions just love the idea of getting pregnant and getting it all cleared up. No guilt whatsoever.

[ElNono]

Perhaps, but the mob and much of the nation/world will feel that the pressure applied led to the favorable outcome.

The problem (imo) with RvW is that it pits two "good" intentions against one another - the good intention of preserving the sanc y of human life vs the good intention of preserving the freedom of human life. Eventually it seems we have to admit one or the other isn't that special, however in reality it's not about value. It's about choice. We might disagree with the choice but nature insists on it, and the abortion could happen with or without assistance.

Point taken, but this is where you have to look at this from a legal standpoint and not unquantifiable things like "feelings", "natural order", etc, and the law says not one legal right is above the other. This is in large part why this is a convoluted opinion: there's no addressing the fact that Roe was largely a compromise decision about two right colliding with each-other, and despite that it might not have been a perfect decision (Casey tweaked it some, but did not question the underlying rights), it did largely understood the problem and tried to address it. That's why this opinion is a bit 'short' in the law department.

[ElNono]

It doesn't matter what "we" do. That's the point. It's not a community decision, but an individual one. The argument over the value of life is separate from the right to have dominion over your own body aka autonomy. Autonomy is a major reason we value our lives and by extension, the lives of others. A proponent for prolife could show ways we fight to save a fetus while a prochoice proponent could show ways we ignore the fetus to serve other needs.

Besides, I'm sure many women mourn miscarriages, despite the perceived social apathy.

The autonomy angle is even more pronounced when the fetus itself can't live without the host, feeding from it, and potentially causing health problems for it.

This is why I mentioned a long time ago, that abortion was something that would solve itself once we had technology that could extract the fetus unharmed at any stage and we had the ability to either preserve it unharmed or finish gestation artificially.

The biggest problem is that doing research to get there would involve fetuses and the like, and then you have the same pitchfork crowd talking about abstract concepts like the "sanc y of life" sabotaging the same .

[Trainwreck2100]

Gdamn the mississippi governor was making the rounds on the sunday shows this morning, and he was talking about how his state's foster process is , but that's okay they'll fix it, like his dumbass don't get that once this overturned "babies wellfare" gonna be dropped like the support for afghanistan in the 90s

[ElNono]

Just a few more pages of discussion and ST will get this issued resolved

Do you have a take or just here to bask yourself in the glory of the alleged decision?

[pgardn]

The autonomy angle is even more pronounced when the fetus itself can't live without the host, feeding from it, and potentially causing health problems for it.

This is why I mentioned a long time ago, that abortion was something that would solve itself once we had technology that could extract the fetus unharmed at any stage and we had the ability to either preserve it unharmed or finish gestation artificially.

The biggest problem is that doing research to get there would involve fetuses and the like, and then you have the same pitchfork crowd talking about abstract concepts like the "sanc y of life" sabotaging the same .

Israel says they have got halfway with mice (11-12 days) in an artificial womb.
But the next step it the "hope" that this artificially developed organism can actual live outside the womb when "born" to the adult stage is a gigantic step imo.

[SnakeBoy]

Libs are good problem solvers

[DMC]

The autonomy angle is even more pronounced when the fetus itself can't live without the host, feeding from it, and potentially causing health problems for it.

This is why I mentioned a long time ago, that abortion was something that would solve itself once we had technology that could extract the fetus unharmed at any stage and we had the ability to either preserve it unharmed or finish gestation artificially.

The biggest problem is that doing research to get there would involve fetuses and the like, and then you have the same pitchfork crowd talking about abstract concepts like the "sanc y of life" sabotaging the same .

Most women are basically baby factories. You simply cannot save every pregnancy and every zygote cannot become a self sustaining human being. The answer isn't to develop technology to artificially mother these zygotes. The answer is to prevent these pregnancies in the 1st place, however that could happen outside of impotency for the male or surgery for the female. Instead of ripping a fetus apart, the pregnancy could be thwarted by better medicines and these should be readily available.

[DMC]

Israel says they have got halfway with mice (11-12 days) in an artificial womb.
But the next step it the "hope" that this artificially developed organism can actual live outside the womb when "born" to the adult stage is a gigantic step imo.

Why? It isn't wanted. It's not like conception cannot also happen in vitro.