The Point Guard Position

[exstatic]

What do you guys think about Garland? He's just 23 and is a perfect point guard for modern NBA.
His size wouldn't be an issue considering the rest of our projected roster.

The only issue is that he already signed a max which kicks in this summer. 33-36-38-41-44 million over the next 5 seasons.
Still, the cap will rise and he'll definitely be worth at least 30 a year.

22/8 on great efficency while playing together with chucker Mitc and poor spacing. Could easily be a 25/10 guy for us.

He's a bad fit on the Cavs because him and Mitc can't defend together and they can't afford to have two of them on 60+ million per season with no good wings on the roster and Mobley's extension coming up.

Keldon can't land us a good point guard in the draft, but I'm sure Cavs would be willing to take him for Garland and Spurs wouldn't have to give up much else because of Keldon's team-friendly deal that would serve as an additiona asset for the Cavs.

Other than Garland, maybe we could take advantage of dumpster fire in Minnesota next summer if Edwards asks out, but they'd ask for a lot. Beyond those two, there aren't any realistic deals to be had that fit the timeline.
And I'm not going to pretend that I know much about the upcoming drafts.

Garland is WAY overpaid, and Ant Edwards is a dumbass.

[rascal]

As this debate has evolved I have come to the conclusion that the guy to target is Bufkin. He plays good D, has a great feel for the game, finishes a crazy high percentage at the rim and can shoot the 3 both C&S and off the dribble. And he could very well be available outside the lottery. He has good positional size at 6'5" and just has the feel of being a great fit for the Spurs.

Yes, Bufkin or Jalen Hood-Shifino should be the targets at a lower cost.

Bufkin looks solid in all areas.

I like Hood-Shifino's game more than Black. Has better shooting mechanics and already is solid on hitting his mid range shot. Hood-Shifino looks far better on shooting off the dribble than Black. Hood-Shifino's defense is also not bad.

Black doesn't jump off the floor on his shot. This will play smaller than his height in the NBA. Black has a push shot(heaves it up) and doesn't have good form on it.

The Spurs need a pg who can at least hit mid range shots at a good rate.

[Mr. Body]

Yeah, Black's shot is really weird. He played wide receiver in hs, apparently, and was recruited by colleges. His legs are really strong but they lead to this weird jump shot.

I'm still unsure about JHS. His numbers were pretty bad and he was so erratic. Maybe something's there.

The only thing about Bufkin is that he's more of a combo guard, but I feel like he can run pnrs without problem. He just may not have the vision of the other guys.

[LeBowen]

Garland is WAY overpaid, and Ant Edwards is a dumbass.

But that's the catch. Him being overpaid means Spurs wouldn't need to attach like 3 additional firsts.

Unless Spurs can land a future all-star PG in the draft, which I don't think is going to happen, I'd much prefer Wemby to be paired with a known quan y at point. Someone good enough to maximize his potential from the start, because that's how this roster is hopefully going to operate over the next decade.

Maybe I'm biased because I really like Garland as a player, but I think it's a risk worth taking with so much cap space available. He'd be easy to trade in a few years if it doesn't work out and Spurs need cap space.

[exstatic]

But that's the catch. Him being overpaid means Spurs wouldn't need to attach like 3 additional firsts.

Unless Spurs can land a future all-star PG in the draft, which I don't think is going to happen, I'd much prefer Wemby to be paired with a known quan y at point. Someone good enough to maximize his potential from the start, because that's how this roster is hopefully going to operate over the next decade.

Maybe I'm biased because I really like Garland as a player, but I think it's a risk worth taking with so much cap space available. He'd be easy to trade in a few years if it doesn't work out and Spurs need cap space.

Literally anyone can throw a lob to Wemby. He can grab anything within 4 feet of the rim, and dunk it. You don't need an All Star.

If you want to build a sustained winning team, you cannot have a non primary player contract like Garland's on your books.

[LeBowen]

Literally anyone can throw a lob to Wemby. He can grab anything within 4 feet of the rim, and dunk it. You don't need an All Star.

If you want to build a sustained winning team, you cannot have a non primary player contract like Garland's on your books.

The fact is that Spurs need a primary ballhandler who's going to be a triple threat on pnr. Winning teams just don't work without those.
Even Jokic needs Murray and Giannis needs Middleton. We need someone who can collapse defenses while being a legit threat from deep.

Right now this roster doesn't have anyone who's even close to being good enough as a creator.
Tre is a great guy and I'd love to keep him as a backup, but he's an undersized guard with no range.

Devin and Malaki could become Wemby's Middleton, but they're not on that level yet.
I've got high hopes for Jeremy as a playmaker, but he can't shoot at all.

Victor most definitely won't be playing as C in his rookie season, so we need at least two elite 3pt shooters in the starting lineup.

As I said, he's 23 and Spurs won't be a serious playoff team for at least two more seasons.
It doesn't have to be Garland, but he's the type this roster needs and I can't see anyone else being available right now.

[Dejounte]

I simply took a criteria that you applied as a negative to Black, and applied it to Scoot. Has nothing to do with athleticism.

I know your stance on age, just as you know mine, but the fact is that the overwhelming majority of FRPs are 18/19, not 21/22, so I think the NBA kind of sees it more my way. If you stick around in college until you're 21/22, you're stronger and more physically developed, but it doesn't make you a better star prospect, IMO. I don't see it being much different from the 20YO Thompsons playing against 15/16 YO kids.

Check out why I brought up athleticism in the post you quoted before this one.

[exstatic]

Check out why I brought up athleticism in the post you quoted before this one.

I have no idea why you brought athleticism into a post quoting a very short post of mine mentioning the age of two players, pre-draft, and a quick response to your WS point.

[Dejounte]

I have no idea why you brought athleticism into a post quoting a very short post of mine mentioning the age of two players, pre-draft, and a quick response to your WS point.

Uh, let me break this down for you:

I said: usually lottery players are lottery players because they have decent stats or great athleticism

you pointed out stats that werent in Scoot’s favor

then I reply that I disagree with you on Scoot’s athleticism, basically saying that he has at least that going for him whereas Black doesn’t have either. (I’m also excluding basketball feel here, which is a big part)

Do you follow?

[DAF86]

Jalen Williams is not a point guard.

And the thread isn't about Black. It's about getting a defensive point guard who is a potential starter. I listed at least four of these, possibly six.

Do people just not know how to read? Is that the issue?

Why does it have to be a defensive point guard? I think most would agree that we are in a much more need of an offensive one, tbh.

If you think of the last NBA champions, which team won without having an all-star level guard/perimeter player? I don't know if today's NBA can be won without a dynamic scorer in the point of attack. Folks might try to say Bucks or Lakers but the Lakers' PG is Lebron (not to mention they are the flukiest champions ever) and the Bucks had Middleton and Holiday. You just need to have that scoring threat in the perimeter, and you can even get away with that player being a below average defender (Murray, Curry, Kyrie, etc.).

[exstatic]

Uh, let me break this down for you:

I said: usually lottery players are lottery players because they have decent stats or great athleticism

you pointed out stats that werent in Scoot’s favor

then I reply that I disagree with you on Scoot’s athleticism, basically saying that he has at least that going for him whereas Black doesn’t have either. (I’m also excluding basketball feel here, which is a big part)

Do you follow?

OK.

We just have very different ways of evaluating players. You tend more towards the eye test with video analysis, and I tend towards the analytics, and those two don't always agree. That leads us into conflict, but it doesn't have to. I see very little chance of us getting Scoot OR Black, so what are we squabbling about? Let's just see how things play out in the draft, and over the next two years or so.

[exstatic]

Why does it have to be a defensive point guard? I think most would agree that we are in a much more need of an offensive one, tbh.

If you think of the last NBA champions, which team won without having an all-star level guard/perimeter player? I don't know if today's NBA can be won without a dynamic scorer in the point of attack. Folks might try to say Bucks or Lakers but the Lakers' PG is Lebron (not to mention they are the flukiest champions ever) and the Bucks had Middleton and Holiday. You just need to have that scoring threat in the perimeter, and you can even get away with that player being a below average defender (Murray, Curry, Kyrie, etc.).

Holiday is a very good defensive PG, who has a credible shot to keep teams honest. I think that's what most here want. We don't need a 25 point scorer there.

[Mr. Body]

Why does it have to be a defensive point guard? I think most would agree that we are in a much more need of an offensive one, tbh.

If you think of the last NBA champions, which team won without having an all-star level guard/perimeter player? I don't know if today's NBA can be won without a dynamic scorer in the point of attack. Folks might try to say Bucks or Lakers but the Lakers' PG is Lebron (not to mention they are the flukiest champions ever) and the Bucks had Middleton and Holiday. You just need to have that scoring threat in the perimeter, and you can even get away with that player being a below average defender (Murray, Curry, Kyrie, etc.).

Because we get scorched by top level guards. The offense is going to take care of itself, more or less, but with Wembanyama and some of the other pieces we have a chance to be very good defensively. I don't want a sieve as a main guard who cannot prevent Wembanyama from having to cover everything and possibly get in foul trouble. If we have a good defensive lead guard this team can be what's almost impossible to do in this era: be very good at shutting teams down.

This draft is unique to me in that it has multiple good defensive guards who aren't total rubbish on the other end. This really doesn't happen very often, looking over past drafts.

[Seventyniner]

Literally anyone can throw a lob to Wemby. He can grab anything within 4 feet of the rim, and dunk it. You don't need an All Star.

If you want to build a sustained winning team, you cannot have a non primary player contract like Garland's on your books.

Wemby's rookie contract is the perfect time to overpay other players relative to production, because Wemby himself should provide value well in excess of his salary.

I'm not saying Garland is the right player to splurge on. He would fit the offense like a glove (career average 39% 3FG on good volume) and he somehow tied with SGA for the most defensive win shares in the league from the PG position last season. His contract is not great but not horrible; if the cap keeps going up 10% per year he should take up about 1/4 of it per year while Wemby will only get around 1/12.

[exstatic]

Wemby's rookie contract is the perfect time to overpay other players relative to production, because Wemby himself should provide value well in excess of his salary.

I'm not saying Garland is the right player to splurge on. He would fit the offense like a glove (career average 39% 3FG on good volume) and he somehow tied with SGA for the most defensive win shares in the league from the PG position last season. His contract is not great but not horrible; if the cap keeps going up 10% per year he should take up about 1/4 of it per year while Wemby will only get around 1/12.

Garland has 5 years and 194,300,000 left. That's beyond Wemby's rookie deal.

It's a pipedream anyway. Cleveland won't let him go for anything short of our entire pick bag.

[Seventyniner]

Garland has 5 years and 194,300,000 left. That's beyond Wemby's rookie deal.

It's a pipedream anyway. Cleveland won't let him go for anything short of our entire pick bag.

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't know he had money due in 2027-2028. I was using Hoopshype which only showed his deal through 2026-2027.

That changes my mind some. Five years takes him through his prime but that one year of overlap with Wemby's extension could be problematic. That and the fact that you're right about Cleveland not being willing to just dump him at this point. Their team salary situation is pretty clean, with Love coming off the books and Mobley still on his rookie deal.

[exstatic]

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't know he had money due in 2027-2028. I was using Hoopshype which only showed his deal through 2026-2027.

That changes my mind some. Five years takes him through his prime but that one year of overlap with Wemby's extension could be problematic. That and the fact that you're right about Cleveland not being willing to just dump him at this point. Their team salary situation is pretty clean, with Love coming off the books and Mobley still on his rookie deal.

That last year could be a player option or opt out. I used his bbref page for the contract length and amounts.

[RC_Drunkford]

The Spurs can bring in a guy who‘s overpaid with all those rookie contracts and cap space available. Now I don’t see Cleveland wanting to trade Garland. Bottom line is we need an All-Star at PG. Yes a good point of attack defender would put the defense over the top, but as LeBowen said we also need somebody who‘s able to break down the defense and a threat from 3. I don‘t see any solution at the horizon right now, but let‘s see what the FO got up their sleeve

[Mr. Body]

I'm not sure why we need an All-Star at point. This keeps confusing me.

[DAF86]

As this debate has evolved I have come to the conclusion that the guy to target is Bufkin. He plays good D, has a great feel for the game, finishes a crazy high percentage at the rim and can shoot the 3 both C&S and off the dribble. And he could very well be available outside the lottery. He has good positional size at 6'5" and just has the feel of being a great fit for the Spurs.

I really like this guy.



Some other poster proposed moving up to Miami's #18 by just giving up #33 and taking on Lowry's contract. I don't know if this is a realistic scenario, but I would jump on that opportunity if this guy was still available.

[DAF86]

Holiday is a very good defensive PG, who has a credible shot to keep teams honest. I think that's what most here want. We don't need a 25 point scorer there.

Sure, if we had a Middleton I would be fine with getting JUST a Holidy type, but we don't have a Middleton. We probably do have a Holiday, though, in Vassell, which is why going for another Holiday would make no sense.

[DAF86]

I'm not sure why we need an All-Star at point. This keeps confusing me.

We do. A Point guard, or just a primary ballhandler that plays on the perimeter, that's what the Spurs most obviously need. That's why all this talk about a defensive minded pioint is crazy.

The Spurs will have 3 great defensive prospects next year: Wemby, Sochan and Vassell. Add to that a 3 and D guy through free agency (which are a dime a dozen now) and you don't need any more defense.

What the Spurs really need is a 3 level dynamic, point of attack, scorer (which, unlike the 3 and D guy, is way harder to find). Get busy on finding that guy first and then you can start worrying about finding those 3 and D glue guys to round up a championship contender.

You don't waste lottery picks aiming at role players, you shoot for the stars and if the player ends up being a high end role player, then that's fine too. But you just can't think of moving up to the lottery picks thinking of getting a "defensive minded PG that keeps defense honest". That's just not how drafting in the lottery works.

[exstatic]

Sure, if we had a Middleton I would be fine with getting JUST a Holidy type, but we don't have a Middleton. We probably do have a Holiday, though, in Vassell, which is why going for another Holiday would make no sense.

Vassell is much closer to being Middleton than he is Holiday, who is a floor general and PG.

[DAF86]

Last champions off the top of my head:

-Murray and Jokic
-Middleton and Giannis
-Curry, Klay and Draymond
-Lebron and Davis
-Kawhi, Siakam (and Lowry to a lesser extent)
-Wade, Lebron and Bosh

Every team had all-star level players both in the perimeter and inside. We already have our inside all-star level prospect in Wemby, now we need that all-star level prospect in the perimeter.

[Mr. Body]

We do. A Point guard, or just a primary ballhandler that plays on the perimeter, that's what the Spurs most obviously need. That's why all this talk about a defensive minded pioint is crazy.

The Spurs will have 3 great defensive prospects next year: Wemby, Sochan and Vassell. Add to that a 3 and D guy through free agency (which are a dime a dozen now) and you don't need any more defense.

What the Spurs really need is a 3 level dynamic, point of attack, scorer (which, unlike the 3 and D guy, is way harder to find). Get busy on finding that guy first and then you can start worrying about finding those 3 and D glue guys to round up a championship contender.

You don't waste lottery picks aiming at role players, you shoot for the stars and if the player ends up being a high end role player, then that's fine too. But you just can't think of moving up to the lottery picks thinking of getting a "defensive minded PG that keeps defense honest". That's just not how drafting in the lottery works.

Two different points you're making:

That we need an All-Star point guard. Heavy, total disagreement.

That this draft isn't a place even to get a good starter. Also disagree.

The mania for a point that needs to carry a huge scoring load and be a star -- just disagree fundamentally.